Did America sin declaring independance from Britain?

[Dave G]

Actually
a better translation would be Thou shalt not murder - which Jesus said in Matt 19:18

I already understand that "kill" in the Old Testament means "murder".
To me, the context dictates it.

Accidental death is different.

But purposefully killing someone, even in war, is not loving our neighbor... and it is definitely not doing all that we can, as much as lies within us as believers, to be at peace with all men.

Simple yes or no will do.

Then a simple "yes" is what I will give you.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Just to play DA, what some will say is, it's irrelevant to Paul's command not to rebel against government. Rome was a model of injustice in many areas, yet Paul submitted, called himself a Roman citizen, appealed to Roman law, etc.

The follow up I would ask is, would Israel have been in sin if they had fought Rome and somehow regained their independence? Obviously they were overpowered, and conquered, but what if they acquired the ability to defend and govern themselves again? Does God always forbid this?

IOWs it's not clear to me that Paul was speaking of national matters of conquest and independence in Romans 13. I don't really see any hints of this. It seemed more directed to individuals in regard to law keeping.

Ok, I have to point out something, is it against the law to kill servants of the state in our day-to-day lives? We will need to shed the blood of police and troops en masse to rebel against a nation.

 

[Bible Thumpin n Gun Totin]

The Lord tells us that the powers that be are ordained of God.
Render to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to the Lord what is the Lord's.

What if we are told to render something to Caesar that is not Caesar's according to law?

Should we break the law, that God tells us to follow, and give it to him, or as Christians should we follow the law and not give it to him?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I already understand that "kill" in the Old Testament means "murder".
To me, the context dictates it.

Accidental death is different.

But purposefully killing someone, even in war, is not loving our neighbor... and it is definitely not doing all that we can, as much as lies within us as believers, to be at peace with all men.

Then a simple "yes" is what I will give you.

Are you saying wars to defend ourselves are wrong or am I misinterpreting you? I have an occupation I am now applying for that supports Department of Defense. So, this is a big issue to me.

 

[NoQuieroUnQueso]

Actually, I refer you all to Acts Chapter 4, when the governing powers ordered Peter and John to not speak or teach in the name of Jesus. They responded with this:

19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.

20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

It says the rulers were present, and Peter and John did not flee but continued to preach the gospel. Was this rebellion against authority? Clearly, by their own words, they thought it not right to disobey God by obeying the rulers of the land.

Also, look at chapter 5, after John and Peter continue to preach. The senate the ruling powers once again bring them to answer for disobeying them. This is their reply:

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

So, we are not to obey the government if their commands go against the Word of God. And, if I'm not mistaken, evil kings were overthrown and replaced in the Bible. Though I'd have to check to be sure.

 

[Aaron]

No tyranny is not worth rebelling against. Assuming tyranny is persecution of citizens for doing good. We should instead flee that nation and let God take vengeance one day. I have to affirm that the saints who died against Rome and the Roman Catholic Church and the magisterial Protestants that did not rebel were doing the right thing, based on Romans 13. However, nations can defend themselves and resist conquerors.

Where do you get in the bible that Christians militarily resist the man of lawlessness? I am interested to find out.

Lol. It says it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. Note the words 'war' and 'overcome.' The OT prophecy uses the word 'prevail.'

But you're saying they offer no resistance to be overcome, that they immediately submit to the persecution. That's not a war.

Let's say you're in a pulpit somewhere, and there's a man going about defaming you to ruin your reputation. Do you at any time say that's not true? What steps would you take to counter the slander and libel? You realize that's self defense? Why not remain silent and let God do the fighting? Heck no! You'd move heaven and earth to defend yourself and your reputation.

Yet, when someone threatens violence against you or your neighbor, or your neighbor's wife and his children, and you have the power to resist them and to protect your neighbor and his wife and his children, you're saying it would be a sin to do so? That loving your neighbor as your self means standing idly by and letting them be victimized?

No thanks. Go love someone else. I don't want you anywhere around me.

 

[Dave G]

Are you saying wars to defend ourselves are wrong or am I misinterpreting you? I have an occupation I am now applying for that supports Department of Defense. So, this is a big issue to me.

Go where the Lord leads you, Steven.
I'm a former sailor who served "Uncle Sam"...and while given the chance I would not do it again, I learned a lot.

What I'm saying is that people who kill other people, wholesale, are sinning against God.

 

[robycop3]

God rules over all of satan's domain. But that does not change the fact that the whole world is under appointment to Satan.

Right now, Satan is the "prince of this world" as is evidenced by the prevalence of sin.

 

[1689Dave]

Right now, Satan is the "prince of this world" as is evidenced by the prevalence of sin.

God uses Satan to inflict his four judgements. War, famine, sickness, and pestilence. Jesus healed all who were oppressed of the devil. And;

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 (KJV 1900)

 

[robycop3]

Mankind is sinful, Salty.
"Thou shalt not kill" means, "Thou shalt not kill".

They were under a covenant of Law with God.

If He commanded them to go to war, then it was not a sin.
It would have been a sin to disobey Him, such as when they did not wipe out some of the tribes around them that He specifically told them to.

"Thou shalt not KILL" is a KJV mistranslation. It SHOULD say, "You shall not MURDER."

Proof ? In the very next chapter of Exodus, God prescribes the DEATH PENALTY for committing certain sins/crimes.

 

[robycop3]

Simple FACT IS: GOD IS OVER ALL NATIONS, & HAS CALLED THEM INTO EXISTENCE & SETR THEIR BOUNDARIES.

History is full of plain evidence of this. And it often took war & rebellion to establish some nations & set their boundaries. So, America's rebellion against Britain was caused by GOD not man.

 

[1689Dave]

Simple FACT IS: GOD IS OVER ALL NATIONS, & HAS CALLED THEM INTO EXISTENCE & SETR THEIR BOUNDARIES.

History is full of plain evidence of this. And it often took war & rebellion to establish some nations & set their boundaries. So, America's rebellion against Britain was caused by GOD not man.

I think this is an example;

“For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.” Revelation 17:17 (KJV 1900)

 

[Aaron]

The revolutionary war is one of several examples where "Christians" killed "Christians" over money and power they were to renounce in the basics.

This is one of the most egregious charicatures of the Revolution I've seen. Christians aren't supposed to lie, Dave.

Victim: Dave! Rogues have stormed my house and are beating my children and stealing their food! Help me!​

Dave: Praise God, brother! Just don't sin by defending them! Pray! That's how you resist this evil!

Victim: WORDS! You suggest WORDS!

Dave: If you're holy enough, your prayers will be answered and He will send his Spirit to defend your children. Have faith! Love ya, Bro!​

 

[1689Dave]

This is one of the most egregious charicatures of the Revolution I've seen. Christians aren't supposed to lie, Dave.

Victim: Dave! Rogues have stormed my house and are beating my children and stealing their food! Help me!​

Dave: Praise God, brother! Just don't sin by defending them! Pray! That's how you resist this evil!

Victim: WORDS! You suggest WORDS!

Dave: If you're holy enough, your prayers will be answered and He will send his Spirit to defend your children. Have faith! Love ya, Bro!​

How many "christians" killed "Christians" over money and territory in WWI, WWII, the AM Revolution, the AM Civil war, and Palestinian Christians by supporting Israel, or dropping bombs?

 

[Salty]

I

But purposefully killing someone, even in war, is not loving our neighbor... and it is definitely not doing all that we can, as much as lies within us as believers, to be at peace with all men.

So are you saying that every allied solider in WW II is guilty of murder since they killed a German or Japanese GI ?

 

[Dave G]

So are you saying that every allied solider in WW II is guilty of murder since they killed a German or Japanese GI ?

When someone gives a person a gun, points at them and says, "go kill that guy because your government says they are your enemy", that is not the definition of "love thy neighbor as thyself".

So, "yes", Salty.
As a former sailor, I would be committing a sin if I point a gun at someone and pulled the trigger.
David committed a sin when he had Uriah setup to die on the front lines.

It's called, "murder".
If you don't mind my asking, how does this seem so hard to grasp?

 

[Alcott]

What I'm saying is that people who kill other people, wholesale, are sinning against God.

What about retail, then?

 

[Alcott]

God uses Satan to inflict his four judgements. War, famine, sickness, and pestilence. Jesus healed all who were oppressed of the devil. And; (John 3:36 (KJV 1900))

What reason is there to think Jesus was ever anywhere in body on this earth except Judah, Egypt, and Galilee? "All" may all mean where he was, but he didn't heal ALL who were oppressed of the devil (was Tiberius?).

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Lol. It says it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. Note the words 'war' and 'overcome.' The OT prophecy uses the word 'prevail.'

But you're saying they offer no resistance to be overcome, that they immediately submit to the persecution. That's not a war.

Let's say you're in a pulpit somewhere, and there's a man going about defaming you to ruin your reputation. Do you at any time say that's not true? What steps would you take to counter the slander and libel? You realize that's self defense? Why not remain silent and let God do the fighting? Heck no! You'd move heaven and earth to defend yourself and your reputation.

Yet, when someone threatens violence against you or your neighbor, or your neighbor's wife and his children, and you have the power to resist them and to protect your neighbor and his wife and his children, you're saying it would be a sin to do so? That loving your neighbor as your self means standing idly by and letting them be victimized?

No thanks. Go love someone else. I don't want you anywhere around me.

Not at all. I support Department of Defense directly and would have joined the military if not barred by disability.

I was genuinely interested to know where your scripture came from, since it may affect my position. The saints I take it fight for their sovereign, and we are defeated by the Man of Lawlessness. We do fight a one way war with the Man of Lawlessness when Jesus returns, and we capture that antichrist and cast him into hell. That is what I thought that meant. It could also be that we rebel as the holy people or as occupied nations, since Calminian helped me understand occupations are different, just look at the Book of Judges.

I just don't see a nation dividing itself into civil war as justified in scripture. That is rebellion and requires killing troops and police an masse.

 

[Calminian]

When someone gives a person a gun, points at them and says, "go kill that guy because your government says they are your enemy", that is not the definition of "love thy neighbor as thyself".

It actually is, if the other guys are Nazis committing mass murder, and if your waring against them will save lives. In fact, if you refuse to fight for the innocent, you're actually supporting the wicked, and being extremely unloving. Extreme pacifism is hateful.

Jesus never hinted that soldiers were to leave the military. He never hinted that wars were evil and never just. And Jesus will one day wage war himself. Will you now call him unloving, unneighborly?