Did America sin declaring independance from Britain?

[Calminian]

The Lord tells us that the powers that be are ordained of God.
Render to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to the Lord what is the Lord's.

Obey magistrates, etc. and the ordinances of men.
What part of rebelling against a king is godly?

We're to pray for our leaders...not openly criticize and even rise up against them.
If there's a problem where we live, then leave.

Hmmm. You say that, yet you avoided all my questions. Very telling. Maybe someone on your side will step up and answer.

 

[Dave G]

Hmmm. You say that, yet you avoided all my questions. Very telling.

Not at all.

To me, you're looking for an excuse not to obey God.
Are you?

if not, then you will bear as much as you can, and then after carefully seeking the Lord's will, move to a more peaceful place.
Believers should never rise up against their leaders...."froward" ( harsh ) or otherwise.

 

[Calminian]

Not at all.

To me, you're looking for an excuse not to obey God.
Are you?

I'm just looking for someone to answer some basic questions on the actual application of obeying God. You're avoiding those questions like the plague for some reason.

I learned long ago, when someone does not want to answer questions, you'll never change their mind. But it is telling.

And no, I'm not looking for an excuse to disobey God.

 

[Dave G]

I'm just looking for someone to answer some basic questions on the actual application of obeying God.

Somehow I don't think you'd like the answers, but I do hope that I am wrong.

You're avoiding those questions like the plague for some reason.

Scripture has the answers.
Where do you think I got them?

I learned long ago, when someone does not want to answer questions, you'll never change their mind.

If you're looking to change my mind, you might have a long time to wait.
I didn't come to my conclusions and convictions overnight.

But it is telling you're not going to touch them.

I think it's obvious what the answers are without me telling you.

And no, I'm not looking for an excuse to disobey God.

Do you justify rebellion?
I hope not.

" For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king." ( 1 Samuel 15:23 ).

Here the Lord is speaking through His prophet Samuel to Saul.
He is expressing a principle that all men should take notice of...rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.

Rebellion against God-appointed authority is not wise, and invites God's wrath, sir.

We as believers should do everything we can to avoid bringing reproach to His name and to ourselves.
Obeying the laws and the rulers of our countries is our reasonable service to Him as His children.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

The factor not being taken into consideration is unlike France England was not a unitary state. The Continental Congress was made up of delegates sent by each colony's legislatures. The conflict arose from the butting of heads between the two sets of government London and the individual colonial legislatures. At the core was the question of how was the debt for the French and Indian War and the garrisoning of Regular Army troops. London in it nearsightedness did what it had always done, It treated the Ameican Colonies like Ireland.

 

[Calminian]

...I think it's obvious what the answers are without me telling you.....

Wow you got really defensive in a hurry. Very telling. I'm no longer seeking an answer from you. Your silence is speaking volumes.

 

[Dave G]

I'm no longer seeking an answer from you.

Seek your answers from God, sir.

My "silence" should be enough to cause you to go to His word and heed it.
May God bless you in your studies.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

You didn't answer the questions.

No tyranny is not worth rebelling against. Assuming tyranny is persecution of citizens for doing good. We should instead flee that nation and let God take vengeance one day. I have to affirm that the saints who died against Rome and the Roman Catholic Church and the magisterial Protestants that did not rebel were doing the right thing, based on Romans 13. However, nations can defend themselves and resist conquerors.

Where do you get in the bible that Christians militarily resist the man of lawlessness? I am interested to find out.

 

[Dave G]

The factor not being taken into consideration is unlike France England was not a unitary state. The Continental Congress was made up of delegates sent by each colony's legislatures. The conflict arose from the butting of heads between the two sets of government London and the individual colonial legislatures. At the core was the question of how was the debt for the French and Indian War and the garrisoning of Regular Army troops. London in it nearsightedness did what it had always done, It treated the Ameican Colonies like Ireland.

My view is that the local leaders of the colonies had no legal right to throw off the governance of England and create their own.
Yes, that would have made me a "Tory", but not in the real sense.

My resistance to open rebellion would have been as a believer.
My personal dislike of a situation would not be enough to take up arms in defiance of it, no matter how "popular" it might seem to do so.
Jesus made this statement to Pontius Pilate:

" Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." ( John 18:36 ).

Paul made this statement to Timothy:

" No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of [this] life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier." ( 2 Timothy 2:4 ).

This isn't my world.
I'm here to "occupy" until He comes again.

Until then, I'm to do my best to obey the laws and rulers, and be at peace with all men.
That means not taking up arms against my fellow man, nor God-ordained authority.

 

[Calminian]

The factor not being taken into consideration is unlike France England was not a unitary state. The Continental Congress was made up of delegates sent by each colony's legislatures. The conflict arose from the butting of heads between the two sets of government London and the individual colonial legislatures. At the core was the question of how was the debt for the French and Indian War and the garrisoning of Regular Army troops. London in it nearsightedness did what it had always done, It treated the Ameican Colonies like Ireland.

Ireland would be another interesting example of a region under British rule at one point. In fact, I believe Britain (I'm sure you would know better than me) is the most [edit] imperialist nations in history (if that's the right word). Perhaps due to their navy, they conquered all over the globe. Most of those conquests, however, did not hold.

The question is, did God directly legislate on issues of national independence and conquest?

 

[Calminian]

....My "silence" should be enough to cause you to go to His word and heed it....

Indeed. Your silence indicates you don't have a clear answer from God's word, but don't want to admit it.

 

[Dave G]

Indeed. Your silence indicates you don't have a clear answer from God's word, but don't want to admit it.

If that's what you want to believe, sir, you are free to do so.

May God bless you.

 

[Calminian]

If that's what you want to believe, sir, you are free to do so.

May God bless you.

You helped more than you realize. Thank you.

 

[Dave G]

You helped more than you realize. Thank you.

You're welcome.
I'm glad I could help.

Please read post # 89 for my reasons why I think believers should not resist the powers that be ( Romans 13:1-2 ).
It is never good to be on the side of law-breakers, unless one is obeying the Lord in the face of man's flagrant disobedience of Him.
Say, for instance in the case of legalizing abortion.

We as Christ's sheep should always seek peace, and ensue it ( Psalms 34:14, 1 Peter 3:10-11 ).

 

[Calminian]

You're welcome.
I'm glad I could help.....

You did, I actually thought you'd have an answer, but you ran, fast, meaning there really is a hole is your argument that you can't seal up (but you don't want to admit it). You don't want to go far as to say Poland was in sin for regaining their independence from Germany, but you know you can't quite explain it.

I've always believed this was never a cut and dry issue. When a dogmatist runs for cover, it confirms it.

 

[Dave G]

You did, I actually thought you'd have an answer, but you ran, fast, meaning there really is a hole is your argument that you can't seal up (but you don't want to admit it).

I'm not here to argue, nor to debate.
Only to comment and leave it at that.

You don't want to go far as to say Poland was in sin for regaining their independence from Germany, but you know you can't quite explain it.

The overall truth is, I don't care about mankind's desires to fight and war against one another.
I think it's an ugly business and reflective of a selfish heart and a hateful attitude, especially against our fellow man.

None of it is glorious and all of it is because we as corrupt men take issue with being "tread upon" and then do a little "treading" back.
To me, avoiding war is far better than participating in it by a long shot.

 

[Calminian]

I'm not here to argue, nor to debate....

Of course not! Thank you for your input.

 

[Salty]

"Did America sin declaring independance from Britain?"

Yes.
It rebelled against it's rightful king, who had granted charters to his subjects to form colonies across the Atlantic. ... .

Based on your statements - than England sinned when William conquerored the Anglo-Saxons in 1066

and how about in the Old Test - did the Children of Israel sin when they fought battles over land??

 

[Dave G]

Based on your statements - than England sinned when William conquerored the Anglo-Saxons in 1066

Mankind is sinful, Salty.
"Thou shalt not kill" means, "Thou shalt not kill".

and how about in the Old Test - did the Children of Israel sin when they fought battles over land??

They were under a covenant of Law with God.

If He commanded them to go to war, then it was not a sin.
It would have been a sin to disobey Him, such as when they did not wipe out some of the tribes around them that He specifically told them to.

 

[Salty]

Mankind is sinful, Salty.
"Thou shalt not kill" means, "Thou shalt not kill".
.

Actually
a better translation would be Thou shalt not murder - which Jesus said in Matt 19:18

But you still did not (directly) answer my question:
"Based on your statements - than England sinned when William conquerored the Anglo-Saxons in 1066"

Simple yes or no will do.