Did anything die before sin?

[Darrenss1]

Other life on earth can't sin, so your point is meaningless. Only man can sin. Do you think animals and plants can sin? I can't tell if you think only man can sin or ont.

Its not meaningless, just that death came to man because of "mans" sin, that does not include the rest of everything else. The fact is things have to die to support any functioning ecosystem, I see no reason that death wasn't already a natural process existing in God's creation before the fall. Again, if plants don't sin than why should they die? Now that is a meaningless proposition since we know, plants do in fact die, though they don't sin.

Whether Adam or Eve could have died without eating from the tree of life is pure speculation.

Not speculation at all... :smilewinkgrin:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Darren

 

[Marcia]

To quite honest so far after reading these posts I would logically say that death probably existed, and as far a Scripture tells us I would say that some of the verses quoted from Romans would contextually hint toward spiritual death being the result of sin.

Are you saying it is only spiritual death and not physical death that came through sin?

If so, I heartily disagree and actually find this rather shocking.

The first instances of physical death that we see came after the fall.

First Cor. 15 speaks of the perishable taking on the imperishable; this includes the physical body. The perishable is part of the result of sin: physical death, that is redeemed and overcome with a bodily resurrection free from age, illness, and death.

If aging, illness, and physical death are not the result of sin, then a large implication of Christ's bodily resurrection is meaningless, and much of 1 Cor. 15 makes no sense.

The promise of a bodily resurrection to a glorified body is part of the triumph we have in Christ over physical death.

 

[Marcia]

Its not meaningless, just that death came to man because of "mans" sin, that does not include the rest of everything else. The fact is things have to die to support any functioning ecosystem, I see no reason that death wasn't already a natural process existing in God's creation before the fall. Again, if plants don't sin than why should they die? Now that is a meaningless proposition since we know, plants do in fact die, though they don't sin.

Death spread to all because of man's sin; this is in Romans 5. And we see corruption and decay in creation in Rom 8. So we don't have to say that plants can only die because they sin or that they died already before man's sin. The scriptures seem to be telling us that sin brings death and it's stated pretty clearly.

Look at Gen 3 again; the ground and animals are cursed because of man's sin.

Not speculation at all...
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

This does not prove your point that man would have died physically before sin. What my pastor says about this, and what other theologians have said, is that man would have lived forever in a sinful state if he had eaten from this tree, which would have been horrible, and God took/rescued them from that. That makes sense, I think. It does not mean that they would have died before sin without eating this tree.

 

[pinoybaptist]

.....................................Death came in because of sin! Physical or spiritual?.................

that is a good question.

somebody said man was not made for heaven, initially, but to live a long, fruitful, God-glorifying, spiritually alive existence here on earth, so that Adam's death was really spiritual, and not physical.

I see and sense some loopholes there, but it's still interesting.

 

[Darrenss1]

I think there is more evidence in the Bible that no death existed before man's sin, than there is evidence that death existed before man's sin. Since the ground and animals are cursed in Gen. 3 after Adam's sin, I think that is strong evidence that death and decay came to animal and plant life after man's sin.

According to Rom 5 how does that relate to EVERYTHING else on the planet?

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Those that believe there was no death at all for any life on earth usually quote this passage but as you can see, this relates ONLY to man. I don't believe God created ALL life to be immortal from a reading of Rom 5; that is going way beyond the scope of the intended meaning, IMO.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

That makes sense, I think. It does not mean that they would have died before sin without eating this tree.

It doesn't make sense, what would serve having a tree of life if Adam and Eve were created immortal and the tree was there for decoration sake, once they sinned then they needed to eat the fruit of the tree of life to live forever? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Darren

 

[Winman]

Yes, this is a difficult subject.

Let's look at what we do know. Original man (before Noah's flood) lived to tremendous ages. Adam lived 930 years, Methuselah lived 969. But after Noah's flood, the lifespan of man decreased very rapidly, although men still lived long ages compared to today. Abraham lived 175 years, Moses 120.

What happened? I think it was a change in the earth itself that made a difference. Before Noah there is no rain mentioned in scripture, only that a mist went up from the earth. There seems to have been a canopy of water above the atmosphere that broke open in Noah's day.

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

It is interesting that this verse says the windows of heaven were opened. A window is clear, you can see through it. We open the windows of our house to let stale air escape, and let fresh air enter.

So, there seems to have been a great change in the environment. Men lived to old ages, it is probable animals and plants did too. This could account for the tremendous size of the dinosaurs as most reptiles continue to grow as long as they live.

And I believe when the scriptures say there were giants, this does not mean men only. We have found fossils of gigantic insects. A dragonfly fossil having a wingspan of over 2 feet has been found.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Is this speaking only of men? Not necessarily. Notice right after it says there were giants in the earth in those days, the next phrase starts with "and also" which means it is speaking of a new subject. So I believe people, animals, sealife, and insects lived to an old age and attained giant size.

So, life span seems connected to the environment. Science has said for many years that man should have the ability to live indefinitely, and they are not sure why the body shuts down and ages when it has the ability to regenerate itself.

The tree of life must have contained whatever nourishment the body needed to keep regenerating itself.

This is all speculation on my part, but it seems man originally was designed to live to extreme age. God had to prevent man from eating from the tree of life or he would have lived forever.

 

[Marcia]

According to Rom 5 how does that relate to EVERYTHING else on the planet?

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Those that believe there was no death at all for any life on earth usually quote this passage but as you can see, this relates ONLY to man. I don't believe God created ALL life to be immortal from a reading of Rom 5; that is going way beyond the scope of the intended meaning, IMO.

Darren

I am also thinking of Gen. 3 and Romans 8. We cannot read modern understandings of man's pollution of earth, etc. into Rom. 8. It clearly is speaking of the corruption and curse brought on by man's sin.

I still think scripture supports my view (and btw the view that has predominated in Christian thinking for centuries, as far as I know) over yours.

Why couldn't animals reproduce without dying? Maybe there is age up to a point without decay and death. Or maybe, because God knew what would happen, it was moot. Animals did not die and there was no problem with the life cycle because sin came in soon enough and brought the curse of decay and death.

 

[Marcia]

It doesn't make sense, what would serve having a tree of life if Adam and Eve were created immortal and the tree was there for decoration sake, once they sinned then they needed to eat the fruit of the tree of life to live forever? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Darren

We don't know what the tree of life was for but we know it reappears in Revelation. God doesn't tell us much about it so I think anything we say about why it was there is speculation.

 

[Darrenss1]

We don't know what the tree of life was for but we know it reappears in Revelation. God doesn't tell us much about it so I think anything we say about why it was there is speculation.

Yes and when we have very little evidence, we go with the evidence we have rather than dismiss it.

Darren

 

[Marcia]

Yes and when we have very little evidence, we go with the evidence we have rather than dismiss it.

Darren

Exactly. That's why I think death did not exist in creation before man's sin.

 

[Darrenss1]

I am also thinking of Gen. 3 and Romans 8. We cannot read modern understandings of man's pollution of earth, etc. into Rom. 8. It clearly is speaking of the corruption and curse brought on by man's sin.

While you may have a point death is very much a NATURAL process in Ecology, for the life of me I can't understand why that would be a problem, death is not a curse in every context. Man's sin and sinfulness can result in unsoliciated death, however there is much death or the ending of life for the survival of other life.

I still think scripture supports my view (and btw the view that has predominated in Christian thinking for centuries, as far as I know) over yours.

Than in that case its not YOUR view..... :laugh:

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

The tree of life must have contained whatever nourishment the body needed to keep regenerating itself.

This is all speculation on my part, but it seems man originally was designed to live to extreme age. God had to prevent man from eating from the tree of life or he would have lived forever.

That is an excellent suggestion!! Think of it, what life forms would benefit from the tree of life? Surely mankind and man alone, that is why Paul's explanation in Rom 5 is central to mankind and not all other life on earth. God had the environment for Adam and Eve to life forever with the tree of life, however when they sinned (spiritual death) living forvever would be a bad idea, they were banished from the Garden and had to live on their own.

Darren

 

[Marcia]

While you may have a point death is very much a NATURAL process in Ecology, for the life of me I can't understand why that would be a problem, death is not a curse in every context. Man's sin and sinfulness can result in unsoliciated death, however there is much death or the ending of life for the survival of other life.

How can decay and death be anything but a curse for every life form? I'm sad when flowers curl up and die and don't retain their beauty. Death is not natural at all - it is only natural in a fallen world. We're so used to accepting it as "part of life," but that is not a biblical view.

 

[Marcia]

That is an excellent suggestion!! Think of it, what life forms would benefit from the tree of life? Surely mankind and man alone, that is why Paul's explanation in Rom 5 is central to mankind and not all other life on earth. God had the environment for Adam and Eve to life forever with the tree of life, however when they sinned (spiritual death) living forvever would be a bad idea, they were banished from the Garden and had to live on their own.

Darren

I'm starting a thread on whether death given as punishment for sin as a result for the fall is merely spiritual or both spiritual and physical. I may do it as a poll, too.

 

[Darrenss1]

How can decay and death be anything but a curse for every life form? I'm sad when flowers curl up and die and don't retain their beauty. Death is not natural at all - it is only natural in a fallen world. We're so used to accepting it as "part of life," but that is not a biblical view.

You are selective in your thinking that's why. Many life forms support the life of other life. Insects for example ought to die to prevent overpopulation, other animals are food for other animals. Bacteria for example has a function, as do flies, would you say death is a bad thing for them??

Again you cite your ideas as the biblical view, how humorous. :sleeping_2:

Darren

 

[Marcia]

You are selective in your thinking that's why. Many life forms support the life of other life. Insects for example ought to die to prevent overpopulation, other animals are food for other animals. Bacteria for example has a function, as do flies, would you say death is a bad thing for them??

Again you cite your ideas as the biblical view, how humorous. :sleeping_2:

Darren

I am not citing my views as biblical views. Where do I do that? I gave plenty of scripture to support the view that death did not exist before sin.

I give some of my views like every other person on this Board. Have you noticed that people do that here? Maybe not since you have not been on the BB very long. Stick around and you might see a few opinions.

What you describe here is how the fallen world operates. We don't know what existed in the Garden - were there flies there? Maybe not. I' would think the Lord had a way for things to work before death.

 

[Darrenss1]

I am not citing my views as biblical views. Where do I do that? I gave plenty of scripture to support the view that death did not exist before sin.

You can only prove that mankind before the fall was not subject to death (for that we all agree), the rest of your proof doesn't go very far.

I give some of my views like every other person on this Board. Have you noticed that people do that here? Maybe not since you have not been on the BB very long. Stick around and you might see a few opinions.

Thanks but I've been posting on forums for years. One thing I do notice is how dogmatic some people are with things you can't really be dogmatic over, some people like to throw around their claim of the "biblical view" with the idea that other interpretations other than their own aren't or could not be supported in scripture, regardless of the content or strength of their argument. Its quite a funny thing to watch. :tongue3:

Darren

 

[Bob Alkire]

You are selective in your thinking that's why. Many life forms support the life of other life. Insects for example ought to die to prevent overpopulation, other animals are food for other animals. Bacteria for example has a function, as do flies, would you say death is a bad thing for them?? Darren

We all are selective in most of our thinking.

First off what did God breath life into? Did He breath life into animals?

One might ask if there was no death of man or animals before sin entered the world and death through sin, then what did man and animals eat? Before sin animal and man were vegetarians.

When I pick a vegetable off the vine or plant it doesn't kill the plant or vine or tree. We still don't know a 100% how things were before the flood, but Dr. Morris has give a lot of thought into it and good answers.

We are taught that Death is the great enemy, the last to be destroyed when Christ returns. 1 Corinthians 15:26. I believe death entered after the Creation was finished, because God said,"it was very good." Gen. 1:31

Gen. 2:17, does not say that they will live forever, but in context I believe it does. They had the chance to. That is if they would leave the tree a lone.
Adam would and did die because of disobedience, the fruit of the tree had nothing in itself to cause him to die. I believe that spiritual death and physical death are not being thought of as separate deaths, but they evolve each other.
I believe they had a free will, why? Because we are not told to abstain from something unless we has the capacity not to. As you can see they had a chance to fall. It was all about their walk with the Lord.

 

[webdog]

We all are selective in most of our thinking.

First off what did God breath life into? Did He breath life into animals?

One might ask if there was no death of man or animals before sin entered the world and death through sin, then what did man and animals eat? Before sin animal and man were vegetarians.

When I pick a vegetable off the vine or plant it doesn't kill the plant or vine or tree. We still don't know a 100% how things were before the flood, but Dr. Morris has give a lot of thought into it and good answers.

We are taught that Death is the great enemy, the last to be destroyed when Christ returns. 1 Corinthians 15:26. I believe death entered after the Creation was finished, because God said,"it was very good." Gen. 1:31

Gen. 2:17, does not say that they will live forever, but in context I believe it does. They had the chance to. That is if they would leave the tree a lone.
Adam would and did die because of disobedience, the fruit of the tree had nothing in itself to cause him to die. I believe that spiritual death and physical death are not being thought of as separate deaths, but they evolve each other.
I believe they had a free will, why? Because we are not told to abstain from something unless we has the capacity not to. As you can see they had a chance to fall. It was all about their walk with the Lord.

What about a potato or carrot? I always knew they were a result of the fall!!