Did Billy Graham do More Harm Than Good to the Church?

[OfLivingWaters]

You have it wrong, it is sects like yours that continue to lead people astray. From Martin Luther on down. the falsehoods continue. You follow the teachings of men, in your case a man named John Smyth, who himself was a former Anglican minister.

I think some people have a hard time separating some bad apples from the bunch. There will always be scandal but Woe to him through whom scandal comes. With what happened to Christ concerning Judas is something all denominations will have to contend with to various degrees. Nothing that happens to us is new, it happened to Him first. Personally that is what Judas represents to the Church. There will always be men who think they know better than God as to what is right. They plot, deceive and appease worldly people, for personal gain. It has always been and will be as long as the world stands. People need to apply only the truth and act according to that, not the false faith of some men.
One last note, if men had to measure Christ by Judas then all would be lost, lets look at the good folks in denominations, if their works are of gold and precious stones on the foundation , regardless if they are of a particular denomination , their works are good, and will not burn. The foundation is Christ, only good enduring works can be built upon Him.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Let us go to the Scriptures and the words of our blessed Savior, Jesus Christ as related to us in the book of Matthew. It says: “And behold, one came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieved; for he was one who owned much property.” Matt. 19:16-22.

Sounds good to me, how about you?

you have gone to the Old Covenant, which required full obedience to the Law of Moses. After the Death of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Law of Moses for the salvation of souls, was "done away" with. The Apostle Paul, who wrote after Jesus had died, says very clearly;

"For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:20); and, "yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified" (Galatians 2:16); and, "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace" (Galatians 5:4); "For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another" (Hebrews 8:7); "By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear" (Hebrews 8:13), etc, etc

After Jesus Christ and the New Testament (because the Old was not required), salvation is by FAITH apart from works, as again Paul puts is, "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law" (Romans 3:28). Read the Books of Romans and Galatians and also parts of Hebrews, to get a better understanding of the passing of the OLD Testament (Covenant with God), and the NEW. The fact that the one is called OLD, and the other, NEW, tells you that the older is no more required.

When the 1000's heard the first Gospel Message preached by the Apostle Peter after Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, they were convicted by God the Holy Spirit, "Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” (Acts 2:37). SAME question the man put to Jesus Christ in the passage you quote from, but the response is very different. Peter does not say, "keep the law", or "do some good works"; but rather, "“REPENT and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (verse 38). Jesus Himself says, "REPENT and BELIEVE in the Gospel" (Mark 1:15), which was the New Testament; and in Luke 24:47, "and that REPENTANCE for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem"; and "unless you REPENT, you will likewise perish" (Luke 13:3,5). In fact, after the Death of the Lord Jesus Christ, you will not find a SINGLE Bible verse that says "keep the law", or "do good works", etc, or anything that you quoted from in Matthew.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

Do you know of anyone who has done all this?
Unlike the young man who came to Jesus claiming to having done all these things , I haven't - how about you Adonia?

OK once we get that question out of the way - how THEN do we get to heaven after failing to do what He said (assuming you have failed at it)?

Many people have lead selfless lives. I can not speak to Adonia, this is a forum so I will not assume Adonia has not. This young man in scripture is another example of what would people really give up for Christ. If he really thought Christ was who He is, he would have said yes to his request. After all, who, if knowing you are dealing with God Incarnate would refuse His request? Especially when you are calling Him good master. For me, that is what I get out of that dialogue, this young man sounds like one of those self abased type that likes to be acknowledged for his accomplishments, but those greater accomplishments he would not strive for. Most Hebrews obeyed the law at that time, even the pharisee's and many of the apostles were true Jews in that they obeyed the laws. This kid was about himself, and how he is perceived by others is very important to him.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

you have gone to the Old Covenant, which required full obedience to the Law of Moses. After the Death of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Law of Moses for the salvation of souls, was "done away" with. The Apostle Paul, who wrote after Jesus had died, says very clearly;

"For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:20); and, "yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified" (Galatians 2:16); and, "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace" (Galatians 5:4); "For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another" (Hebrews 8:7); "By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear" (Hebrews 8:13), etc, etc

After Jesus Christ and the New Testament (because the Old was not required), salvation is by FAITH apart from works, as again Paul puts is, "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law" (Romans 3:28). Read the Books of Romans and Galatians and also parts of Hebrews, to get a better understanding of the passing of the OLD Testament (Covenant with God), and the NEW. The fact that the one is called OLD, and the other, NEW, tells you that the older is no more required.

When the 1000's heard the first Gospel Message preached by the Apostle Peter after Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, they were convicted by God the Holy Spirit, "Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” (Acts 2:37). SAME question the man put to Jesus Christ in the passage you quote from, but the response is very different. Peter does not say, "keep the law", or "do some good works"; but rather, "“REPENT and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (verse 38). Jesus Himself says, "REPENT and BELIEVE in the Gospel" (Mark 1:15), which was the New Testament; and in Luke 24:47, "and that REPENTANCE for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem"; and "unless you REPENT, you will likewise perish" (Luke 13:3,5). In fact, after the Death of the Lord Jesus Christ, you will not find a SINGLE Bible verse that says "keep the law", or "do good works", etc, or anything that you quoted from in Matthew.

Christ did not come to abolish the law but fulfill. It is completion in Him, so you are right because you use scripture to state your case and scripture does not lie. We are justified through faith in Him who is the completion of the covenant.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Christ did not come to abolish the law but fulfill. It is completion in Him, so you are right because you use scripture to state your case and scripture does not lie. We are justified through faith in Him who is the completion of the covenant.

you are referring to something quite different. this has nothing to do with salvation of sinners

 

[agedman]

The claim the RCC is not directly or indirectly involved in slaying the innocent in this day is false.

The claim the RCC is the first and only true church is wrong.

The claim the RCC has and is not the evil false anti-Christ / false prophet that conspired with kings and power to manipulate common people and even the Scriptures is wrong.

The claim the RCC is to be held in esteeme is serious ignorance.

Billy Graham compromised himself and the message, he did damage by including ecumenical modernism. He was a failure in these areas, but it is he who stand before God.

We should acknowledge his errors, and move on to other matters.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

you are referring to something quite different. this has nothing to do with salvation of sinners

It has everything to do with that, the first sinners He came for were those who lived under the law of Moses, first to the Jew then gentile. Christ stated He is the fulfillment of the Law. This was from the inception of Christianity at the Incarnation, there has to be fulfillment before there is newness. You can not have one without the other.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

It has everything to do with that, the first sinners He came for were those who lived under the law of Moses, first to the Jew then gentile. Christ stated He is the fulfillment of the Law. This was from the inception of Christianity at the Incarnation, there has to be fulfillment before there is in newness. You can not have one without the other.

If Christ's words here are the fulfillment of the law for the salvation of sinners, then why the need to abolish this very law, as Hebrews, Romans and Galatians very clearly tells us? Jesus is here speaking of His Ministry as being a fulfillment of ALL that the Old Testament said about Him. Even though He told the rich young ruler to keep the law, He knew full well that this was not possible. It was for the fact that Jesus knew it was IMPOSSIBLE to save sinners through the keeping of the law of Moses, that He removed this requirement and the New Testament through the shedding of His blood, and FAITH in His life and death, that saved sinners from their sins.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

If Christ's words here are the fulfillment of the law for the salvation of sinners, then why the need to abolish this very law, as Hebrews, Romans and Galatians very clearly tells us? Jesus is here speaking of His Ministry as being a fulfillment of ALL that the Old Testament said about Him. Even though He told the rich young ruler to keep the law, He knew full well that this was not possible. It was for the fact that Jesus knew it was IMPOSSIBLE to save sinners through the keeping of the law of Moses, that He removed this requirement and the New Testament through the shedding of His blood, and FAITH in His life and death, that saved sinners from their sins.

That is not what I am saying. The law is abolished for us, I never said we must follow the old covenant, Christ is the fulfillment in every way, including the sacrifice . I am saying HE is the FULFILLMENT, nothing else , no one else, there must be a fulfillment of the law. He is the only perfect, unblemished sacrifice.
King James Version
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.Matthew 5:17.

He came NOT TO DESTROY the LAW or the PROPHETS, but fulfill that is what I said, and this fulfillment is at the inception of Christianity, with the Incarnation, its completion , when He put to death the old and sin, and resurrection made all new and Born Again. It is He only who could do this. The scripture you placed refers to not having to be subject to the old covenant sacrifices, and rabbinical practices.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

That is not what I am saying. The law is abolished for us, I never said we must follow the old covenant, Christ is the fulfillment in every way, including the sacrifice . I am saying HE is the FULFILLMENT, nothing else , no one else, there must be a fulfillment of the law. He is the only perfect, unblemished sacrifice.
King James Version
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.Matthew 5:17.

He came NOT TO DESTROY the LAW or the PROPHETS, but fulfill that is what I said, and this fulfillment is at the inception of Christianity, with the Incarnation, its completion , when He put to death the old and sin, and resurrection made all new and Born Again. It is He only who could do this. The scripture you placed refers to not having to be subject to the old covenant sacrifices, and rabbinical practices.

and I said, "this has nothing to do with salvation of sinners", for we have a NEW TESTAMENT.

 

[OfLivingWaters]

and I said, "this has nothing to do with salvation of sinners", for we have a NEW TESTAMENT.

Well, I am not going to go toe to toe with you, He, fulfilling the Law and the Prophets is part of Salvation for He is Salvation. If you do not get it, so be it.

 

[TCassidy]

This thread is locked until such time has pasted that we can discuss Mr. Graham and his ministry without causing additional grief to his family, loved ones, and friends.