did Christ die for all?

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Then the individual persuaded there is a supreme being, but paying homage and worship to multiple deities. Even these are persuaded. But are these persuaded through truth to believe truth?

Proverbs 14:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />5 ¶A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.
12 ¶There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
25 ¶A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies.

</font>[/QUOTE]Therein lies the crux of the matter. It is up to man to Hear the word of God when it is presented, and to believe in the one living God, especially His Son. That is where the Holy Spirit comes to man's aid. The Holy Spirit helps man to know the truth. The Holy Spirit is the source of Light that enables man to trust the Word of God. Yes, Man must believe to have the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit leads man into righteousness.

Yes, there are false teachers and teachings that are not contained in the Holy Scriptures. AND, YES it is the Holy Spirit that illuminates the truth, but it is up to man to accept (believe) the truth and make that truth what man lives to and by. Believing in Jesus Christ is but the beginning of Christian Life. Keeping the faith through to the end requires constant diligence and study to be able to discern spiritual error and reject it.

 

[Frogman]

In essence Yelsew, we are not in disagreement. Our disagreement is such that man cannot believe any truth until the Holy Spirit changes him from his natural condition. Note the question of Pilot to Christ:

"What is truth"?

This is the question natural man seeks to answer.

then we can read Paul preaching from Mars' hill in Athens:

Acts 17

27  That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Please, don't scream 'context' I have not damaged context here. Paul specifically limits these who seek the Lord to be those in vs. 26 whose bounds are limited and further here in vs. 27 he says of them 'they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him,...' then he says an eternal truth, but which cannot be known by natural man, nor by man seeking him through any other but Christ, these cannot be said to have felt after him can they?

note: 'though he be not far from every one of us:'

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
In essence Yelsew, we are not in disagreement. Our disagreement is such that man cannot believe any truth until the Holy Spirit changes him from his natural condition. Note the question of Pilot to Christ:

"What is truth"?

This is the question natural man seeks to answer.

then we can read Paul preaching from Mars' hill in Athens:

Acts 17
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Please, don't scream 'context' I have not damaged context here. Paul specifically limits these who seek the Lord to be those in vs. 26 whose bounds are limited and further here in vs. 27 he says of them 'they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him,...' then he says an eternal truth, but which cannot be known by natural man, nor by man seeking him through any other but Christ, these cannot be said to have felt after him can they?

note: 'though he be not far from every one of us:'

Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]Sure they can Dallas, You see the plan is that man seeks God, and finds Jesus, who is the tangible in a realm of intangibles, God's only Son, and by believing in Him, the truth is illuminated by the Holy Spirit to those who believe in Jesus. The truth is revealed in accordance with the spiritual state the man is in. Spiritual state is an evolutionary process wherein we learn more about God through His Word. The more we study God's word, the more truth is revealed.

The difference in our points of view is this:

It is your view that man cannot believe until man is regenerated.
It is my view that man is not regenerated until man believes.

It is your view that "only the elect" can be regenerated.
It is my view that those who believe and are regenerated are the "elect".

It is you view that Jesus' death on the cross was only for the "elect".
It is my view that Jesus' death on the cross was for the sins of the whole world, and that the result is that man's sins do not prevent man from receiving eternal life.

I could go on, but we've been there for weeks. You say that you cannot budge from your beliefs, and I assure you that I will not budge from mine.

 

[Felix]

Greetings and Blessings!

I just had to jump in here real quick. Forgive me, but I need to say just a few things.

It is your view that man cannot believe until man is regenerated.
It is my view that man is not regenerated until man believes.

Question: If a person can have saving faith without the new birth, then what does the new birth accomplish?

It is your view that "only the elect" can be regenerated.
It is my view that those who believe and are regenerated are the "elect".

Calvinists affirm both of these statements above.

It is you view that Jesus' death on the cross was only for the "elect".
It is my view that Jesus' death on the cross was for the sins of the whole world...

Yes, "Jesus' death on the cross was only for the 'elect' and ALSO, "Jesus' death on the cross was for the sins of the whole world"!!! There is no contradiction, because the Bible affirms both. However, 'world' in this case can not mean every single individual who lived, live or will live on this planet. It simply means 'jews and gentiles'. Please look at the context and see that especially in the Gospel of John, the word 'world' can have a whole bunch of different meanings.

...and that the result is that man's sins do not prevent man from receiving eternal life.

Is unbelief man's sin? According to this quote 'unbelief' [does not] prevent man from receiving eternal life. Hell should be empty then!

Food for thought: Where the Arminian says: “I owe my election to my faith,” the Calvinist says: “I owe my faith to my election.” Clearly, these two concepts of election are very far apart. Redemption, according to Arminianism, secured for God a right to make this offer, but did not of itself ensure that anyone would ever accept it; for faith, being a work of man’s own, is not a gift that comes to him from Calvary. Where the Arminian will only say: “I could not have gained my salvation without Calvary,” the Calvinist will say: “Christ gained my salvation for me at Calvary.”

“Behold therefore the wickedness of the human heart! When God saves the undeserving without merit, yes, and justifies the ungodly, with all their great demerit, man’s heart does not accuse God of iniquity, nor demand to know why He wills to do so, although by its own reckoning such action is most unprincipled; but because what God does is in its own interest, and welcome, it considers it just and good. But when He damns the undeserving, because this is against its interest, it finds the action [evil] and intolerable; and here man’s heart protests, and grumbles, blasphemes…Now, since Reason praises God when He saves the unworthy but finds fault with Him when He damns the undeserving, it stands convicted of not praising God as God, but as One who serves its own convenience-that is, what it looks for and praises in God is self, and things of self, and not God and the things of God.”

“If I could by any means understand how this same God, who makes such a show of wrath and unrighteousness, can yet be merciful and just, there would be no need for faith. But as it is, the impossibility of understanding makes room for the exercise of faith. And it is here when faced with appearances that seem to contradict God’s own Word, that faith is tried; for here reason rises up in arms against it…And who would not stumble at it? I have stumbled at it myself more than once, down to the deepest pit of despair, so that I wished I had never been made a man. (That was before I knew how health-giving that despair was, and how close to grace)
Martin Luther

"The careful student will note that there are hundreds of books out there that begin with the assertion of the necessity of “free-will” and “human freedom”, and only after establishing these necessities via philosophical arguments do we encounter any biblical discussion. This is exactly backwards from the proper methodology: we begin with God’s revelation concerning the nature of man and then move from revelation to reason. It is not philosophy that leads the believer to his or her conclusions: it is biblical exegesis that does so." James R. White

[ October 13, 2003, 04:38 AM: Message edited by: Felix ]

 

[Yelsew]

Thanks for interjecting Felix, In response I offer:

Question: If a person can have saving faith without the new birth, then what does the new birth accomplish?

Who said anything about saving faith without the new birth? Believing in the Christ is The new birth, it is regeneration. Believing in the Christ is saving faith!

Calvinists affirm both of these statements above.

No, Calvinists do not affirm belief first, they affirm "regeneration that enables belief".

Yes, "Jesus' death on the cross was only for the 'elect' and ALSO, "Jesus' death on the cross was for the sins of the whole world"!!! There is no contradiction, because the Bible affirms both. However, 'world' in this case can not mean every single individual who lived, live or will live on this planet. It simply means 'jews and gentiles'. Please look at the context and see that especially in the Gospel of John, the word 'world' can have a whole bunch of different meanings.

There are Jews, and there are Gentiles. What else is there? Therefore the atonement is for every human being that ever lived, is living and will live this natural life on this planet earth, because Jews and gentiles are all there is.

quote:...and that the result is that man's sins do not prevent man from receiving eternal life.

Is unbelief man's sin? According to this quote 'unbelief' [does not] prevent man from receiving eternal life. Hell should be empty then!

No, 'disobedience of God' is man's sin. Unbelief is man lacking faith in God! They are not the same thing. Sins are not a factor in man's judgement, because judgment is on the basis of faith alone and not faith plus something else. Atonement removed man's sins from the judgment, because Jesus paid the wage for sin for the whole world.

Food for thought: Where the Arminian says: “I owe my election to my faith,” the Calvinist says: “I owe my faith to my election.” Clearly, these two concepts of election are very far apart. Redemption, according to Arminianism, secured for God a right to make this offer, but did not of itself ensure that anyone would ever accept it; for faith, being a work of man’s own, is not a gift that comes to him from Calvary. Where the Arminian will only say: “I could not have gained my salvation without Calvary,” the Calvinist will say: “Christ gained my salvation for me at Calvary.”

"Redemption secured for God a right to make this offer"????? Does sovereign God need "a right" to do anything? God set before man, "life" and "death", then said to man choose life. But God does not make the choice for man! Man must choose for himself what he will believe.

In case you haven't recognized the truth, Calvary is not the salvation of man! Calvary is ATONEMENT for the Sins of the world, an innocent, unblemished Lamb of God taking upon himself the penalty for the sins of the world! Then taking them to the grave, never to be returned to light. The Lamb of God, returned to the light of day because he is the light of the world. It is man's faith in Jesus that saves man from the judgement and subsequent casting into the lake of fire.(John 3:18) The Atonement on Calvary's Cross, paid the price for the redemption of man, but it does not save man. Faith (John 3:16) is what saves man.

Finally, Faith is not "a work" at all, why do you insist that it is? "Faith is "the substance of" things hoped for, "the evidence of" things not seen", None of which qualifies faith as a "work" or "works". "Work" implies the expenditure of effort. Man expends no effort to have faith! Man merely accepts the substance and the evidence and determines for himself what he will do with them. His eternal life depends on his choice!

 

[Hercules]

Originally posted by Me2:
If the resurrection of Jesus Christ From the dead declares that He is more powerful than death and that he is the representative of "All" men guilty of sin.

then death towards all men is powerless.

if all sin was not atoned for, then death would still have a purpose an power.
death would be able to be declare even more powerful than Christ.. By God himself.
That death has the authority and power to hold the souls of men and that their sins were not atoned for via the resurrection of Christ.

also proving that christ did not die for "all" sin of "all" men.

that is the question to Christians.
Is death more powerful than Christ?

or..

Is he lord even over Death?
meaning that death has no power over "all" man.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

scriptures states that death IS to be declared to be defeated towards all men guilty of sin through the power of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

then cant one conclude that it hasent been completely manifested yet to all men yet.

what of those who have died not knowing of Christ in this lifetime.
we must await the judgement of men after their death to see if the scriptures concerning Christ victory over even the power of death is true.

If we have proof that we ourselves have experienced being raised from the dead. and this resurrection power to be true.

can we conclude that God will judge all men equally?

Me2

 

[Johnv]

Yes, Christ dies for all. But not all have chosen to live for Christ.

Christ extends his hand to all who want the gift of salvation. But a hand not taken has the same result as no hand ever been extended.

 

[Hercules]

Hey read psalms 22:29 Now read..Malachi 3:16 I believe you love the truth that you might be saved,but then like in 2 thess 2:10 their are many that love pleasures in unrighteousness.So then if you truly believe you should be living like you do other wise it's all in vain.The lord is pure and precious and makes his people to conform unto this very same image.Hold to the tradition you have been taught and stay clean in the sight of and almighty God.He expects it and it is of faith that we desire it,a clean and pure heart and soul.

 

[Yelsew]

Acts 17:26-28. From one single principle he not only created the whole human race so that they could occupy the entire earth, but he decreed the times and limits of their habitation.
27. And he did this so that they might seek the deity and, by feeling their way towards him, succeed in finding him; and indeed he is not far from any of us,
28. since it is in him that we live, and move, and exist, as indeed some of your own writers have said: We are all his children.

Paul clearly says the men are to seek God, and by "feeling their way towards him, SUCCEED in finding Him." Paul did not mince words so that the Greeks could not understand Him, He was quite clear. MEN DO SEEK GOD, and DO FIND GOD!

None of this you must be regenerated before you can seek God. That is pure hogwash!

 

[ybobbs]

if the Lord Jesus Christ died for all;why did he says;not every one that call to me Lord Lord shall enter to the kingdom of heaven;matt 7:21and in verse 22 he deny them,so it means that the salvation is not for all sinners,but to those only doeth the will of his father witch is in heaven.verse 21 of matt 7.

 

[ybobbs]

if the Lord Jesus Christ died for all;why did he says;not every one that call to me Lord Lord shall enter to the kingdom of heaven;matt 7:21and in verse 22 he deny them,so it means that the salvation is not for all sinners,but to those only doeth the will of his father witch is in heaven.verse 21 of matt 7.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Bro,Bobby G.Sandoval:
if the Lord Jesus Christ died for all;why did he says;not every one that call to me Lord Lord shall enter to the kingdom of heaven;matt 7:21and in verse 22 he deny them,so it means that the salvation is not for all sinners,but to those only doeth the will of his father witch is in heaven.verse 21 of matt 7.

Bro.Bobby G. Sandoval, do not confuse what God did for man with what man is able to do for God.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. That is a clearly stated Fact whether or not some want to believe it. The fact that man does not recognize that truth, does not make it any less true.

Another amazing fact about the Atonement is that no one is saved by it, and no one can be saved without it! The Atonement clears the way for
"Saved through faith".

Jesus died for ALL so that whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life. Jesus is an 'equal opportunity' Savior. The playing field is level, there are no advantages given to any man. All mankind must be saved in the same manner, through faith, and faith is something you either have or do not have. There are no circumstances where one can have more faith than another. It is like a light bulb, either on or off. Faith is like being pregnant, there are no partial pregnancies, just different stages of pregnancy.

Jesus will deny those who attempt to come though the gate of the sheepfold riding the coat tails of legitimate sheep (acting christian) and
We all know at least one of these, maybe more.

 

[Hercules]

Originally posted by tnelson:
Those whom Christ came to redeem - will be redeemed!

There are several Bible terms used to describe the same people.

1. His people. Matthew 1:21 states that He....shall save his people from their sins.

2. His sheep. John 10:15 Our Lord said "I lay down my life for the sheep."

3. His friends. John 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

4. His church. Ephesians 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it." Acts 20:28 "feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

Christ died for and purchased the church with His own blood. Does this sound like He died for the world? No, for there is a vast difference between the world and the church.

5. His elect. Rom.8:32,33 "He that spared not his own son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." The "us all" in this passage is clearly identified to be God's elect. Does this soundlike Christ was delivered up for the whole human race? No, friends,no.

Just a few verses that God opened my eyes to see.

by His Grace
mike

 

[Hercules]

Mike i agree with you fully.You are right.Would you happen to be a hardshell primitive baptists.The lord seems to have opened your eyes to a great understanding.God bless you.Your friend Lewis

 

[tnelson]

Hi,Lewis
I do not consider myself a HPB. But, the folks in my area do call me a calvinest.

I would have to say that I am a Reformed, and God is doing the reforming.

by His Grace

mike

 

[Hercules]

Originally posted by tnelson:
Hi,Lewis
I do not consider myself a HPB. But, the folks in my area do call me a calvinest.

I would have to say that I am a Reformed, and God is doing the reforming.

by His Grace

mike

 

[Hercules]

Originally posted by GH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by massdak:
first i want to tread carefully with this issue, i am somewhat unsettled with this issue. but if Christ died for all sin that would include unbelief and while we were still in unbelief Christ died for those who he foreknew (His elect) my question maynot be answerable, if Christ died for everyone's unbelief then that would insure universal salvation would it not? it is apparent that those who believe do not have this special virtue to believe on any merit of their own unless God gives it correct? if anyone believes that they heard the gospel and according to the wooing of the Holy Spirit choose of their own free will and not resisted as some others would, then they were very spiritually smart while the stubbornness of others were not so smart, does any one believe this?
my belief is that God draws His elect and drawing is not wooing. otherwise the word woo would be used instead of draw.

i do believe that Christ died so everyone is invited to come, yet only those who God draws will hear the calling. i know it is a contradiction but i believe it.

I think you're on to something here, Massdak. May our Lord quicken and make alive His drawing (in the Greek = dragging) men to Himself.

The book of Romans, especially chapter 5, makes it abundantly clear that all have sinned; Christ died for all while they were yet sinners; that just as death was imputed to all men from the transgression of one man, Adam, righteousness would be equally be imputed to all mankind. Did men "choose" to die? No, it was imputed to them. In exactly the same way, no one can "choose" life. It is also imputed to them.

This teaching of "deciding" to follow Jesus is a lie and a teaching of THE TRADITIONS OF MEN. Did Jesus' disciples choose Him? Did Paul, "choose" to follow Jesus? No! He chose to persecute the church. Jesus called him and he became a bond-slave who was shown what he must suffer for His name's sake. Did not Paul say that he was made the example of those who would follow? He said that he was the chiefest of sinners and he was "dragged" to the throne of grace. "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all long-suffering, as a PATTERN to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting (aionian) life.

It was saving grace which caused us to open our mouth to even be able to confess His name!! Salvation is all of God, not of man lest you boast in your own works, even if it is as simple as boasting in your "decision." This way of thinking will surely lead to self-righteousness and spiritual death.

Ask, seek and knock on this Massdak. God will show you.

Continued blessings upon you.

GH </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Hercules]

Very well put gh.Proverbs 25:11

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by massdak:
first i want to tread carefully with this issue, i am somewhat unsettled with this issue. but if Christ died for all sin that would include unbelief and while we were still in unbelief Christ died for those who he foreknew (His elect) my question may not be answerable, if Christ died for everyone's unbelief then that would insure universal salvation would it not? it is apparent that those who believe do not have this special virtue to believe on any merit of their own unless God gives it correct? if anyone believes that they heard the gospel and according to the wooing of the Holy Spirit choose of their own free will and not resisted as some others would, then they were very spiritually smart while the stubbornness of others were not so smart, does any one believe this?
my belief is that God draws His elect and drawing is not wooing. otherwise the word woo would be used instead of draw.

i do believe that Christ died so everyone is invited to come, yet only those who God draws will hear the calling. i know it is a contradiction but i believe it.

Massdak, What is unsettling for you is who the author is that is saying, "Christ died for us while we were were still in unbelief" Jesus died for the sins of the world. Whether or not one believes, that person's sins are paid for, "the end". Now, with sins paid for so that man does not have to pay the penalty for his own sins, all men must still face judgment, "for it is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgment". That judgment is inescapable. But alas, The Son of God said that whosoever believeth in Him shall not face the judgment, but passes from death unto life. So, that leaves only the unbelievers to face the judgment. And, because the unbeliever does not have faith in Jesus, God's gift of salvation for man, the unbeliever is cast into the lake of fire to be with Satan, the false prophet, the dragon, and the demons, and all other unbelievers.

What seems to be throwing you is this. Jesus died 2000 years ago, long before you were born. You were born in unbelief, and you did not become a believer until you heard the Word of God and in your own mind formed belief (faith) in Jesus and God the Father. So Christ died for the sins of the world while we were still in unbelief, or before we came to believe. Well He died for the Apostles, the author of those words, too, before they fully believed who and what He was and the purpose of His death. That does not change the facts of why Jesus died and what His death does for all mankind, even the unbelievers.

Massdak, you said, "it is apparent that those who believe do not have this special virtue to believe on any merit of their own unless God gives it correct?" Let's let Peter, the Rock, answer that for you. Peter declares in 1 Pet 1:13-25 that MAN'S REGENERATION IS THE RESULT OF HEARING THE WORD OF GOD, and that REGENERATION IS NOT the precursor to hearing the Word. In other words, "Faith cometh by Hearing, and Hearing by the Word of God" You will also notice that Peter DECLARES that man has the ability to Control his behavior for all such control is within the MIND OF MAN! If you don't believe Peter, who will you believe?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Regeneration precedes belief. The word itself means a bringing back to life or its former state or existence, whether we use it theologically, biologically, or physiologically, . If something has to be brought back to life, then it follows its former state is that of being dead unable to "hear" or "comprehend" even if you shout the gospel into its ears.

The Bible says man is dead in trespasses and sins, unable to do anything pleasing to God, such as repentance, on his own.

Consider the following from Jeremiah 13:23 -

....Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Or Ezekiel 36:24-38

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

I do not see man taking the first step here. God is the one who does all things. He regenerates His own, causes him to believe, and works in them to will and to do His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).


Last but not the least, consider Ephesians 2:1-9 which very clearly states the sequence: dead in sins, quickened, walking in obedience.

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires F4 of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ................

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained F5 that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.