Did Christ die for everyone or just for the elect?

[Helen]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
After reading all these posts both pro and con I believe some are overlooking one important point. Did the death of Christ save anyone? Did Christ bear anyone's sins in his own body when he died?

For those who say Christ died for the whole world or all men without exception this leads to a big problem. If Christ died for all men's sins in reality, then why are non believers in hell today? I'm not just referring to those who reject the gospel, but those who lived their lives as atheists and devout Muslims. Truly, millions have lived and died in that state for the last 2,000 years.

If Christ bore the sins of this mass of people that I am referring to, then God the Father sent the souls of these people to hell when Christ died for their sins anyway?

It seems more sensible to me that God the Father chose out of the total mass of humanity a people he would save and sent his Son to die for JUST THEM and chose NOT to save the rest.

Sinning and believing are two entirely different things. Christ bore the sins of the world and atoned for all sin. There are NO insults left to the Father in all eternity.

This does not mean, however, that all men are believers. All men COULD be, but it is their choice yea or nay. But whether they believe or not, their sins are atoned for.

This is why John 3:16-18 makes such a point out of the fact that it is due to unbelief that a person is condemned. Not because of sin. Because of unbelief.

 

[Ron Arndt]

But isn't unbelief a sin? And if unbelief is a sin, then since Christ died for all our sins and not just some sins, then no one should be in hell for all the sins Christ died for. Either the sacrifice of sins for God's people was complete or he died for only some sins.

 

[Eric Rolen]

What about those with hyper calvinist beliefs? They who belief people can be pre destined for hell? I dont believe this but how can a person believe God died for their sins if they are predestined for hell? there are those in this world who believe this.

 

[Michaelt]

Wow, I wasn't aware that this was such a difficult concept to grasp. I guess in many ways I'm so elementary in my beliefs that it could be dangerous, but I believe the Bible teaches that Christs sacrifice was for anyone who would accept that gift, and that it's up to each individual to either accept or deny the gift of Christs death as payment for their sins.

But that's just me.

 

[TexasSky]

Ron,

Christ set one term for forgiveness - belief.

My Pastor recently put it this way.

God is Holy.
God is Just.
God is All Powerful.
God is Kind.
God is Forgiving.
God is Merciful.

How do you reconcile holy and just and all powerful with kind, forgiving and merciful? You set up a method for reconciliation - and you stick to that method. You make that method of atonement available to all who need it, and you do not offer waivers to those who skip it.

Everyone has sinned.
The scripture tells you that.
EVERYONE is ~offered~ the opportunity to reconcile themselves with God, that opportunity is Christ.
The terms - you MUST believe in Christ.

The problem with other views is that it makes God unjust. Which contradicts scripture that says God IS just.

God does not say, "All have sinned, but only these that I point to will be permitted to achieve forgiveness."

God does say that Christ died for all, and it also says that only those who accept Christ will be saved.

THAT is justice.

THAT fits the nature of God in all ways.

Christ is the sacrifice for us.

And to answer the part "isn't unbelief a sin" the bible does not say Christ died to erase "all sin". It says He died to save all sinners who believe. There is a subtle difference.

I have students graduating in a few weeks.
I have offered free tickets to a steak dinner to every graduate.
I told them they have to RSVP and get a ticket from me.
If they do NOT RSVP, they will NOT have a ticket and I WILL turn them away at the door.
My offer is to all of them.
My condition can easily be met by all of them.
If they don't meet that one condition - it is unjust of me to treat them like those who did.

God is more Just than I ever even hope to be.

 

[webdog]

In the analogy of the cashier declaring the Savior was in the store and giving out gifts,how were the corpses able to get themselves alive in order to waddle over and pick up their gifts?

I take it you are referring to "dead in sin". This is just that...not dead to make decisions or "waddle" to pick up your gift.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Eric Rolen:
What about those with hyper calvinist beliefs? They who belief people can be pre destined for hell? I dont believe this but how can a person believe God died for their sins if they are predestined for hell? there are those in this world who believe this.

By default, calvinism IS hyper calvinism. Calvinists do not want to admit that God predestined people to hell, but the fact is if God chose only some for Heaven, by default the rest are chosen for hell as these are the only two places you can spend eternity.

 

[Grasshopper]

It is time to stop relying on the works of men and simply come back to the Bible.

Then why do you bring up a book by Dave Hunt? Is Dave Hunt a man?

THE WORLD. Simple. Now, I haven't looked up the greek, but I believe that it is the same word used 245 other times in the New Testament, and no one ever goes, "No, not the world," the other 245 times.

Then I would highly recommend you look up the different greek words for world.

Start with John 3:16, Luke 2:1, and Matthew 24:3

Belief is NOT a work. It is acceptance as truth or real. It is a though process not an action. The extended meaning is has faith in.

But faith is a gift, does everyone receive that gift?

Does God call ALL to salvation?

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified. And whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
But isn't unbelief a sin? And if unbelief is a sin, then since Christ died for all our sins and not just some sins, then no one should be in hell for all the sins Christ died for. Either the sacrifice of sins for God's people was complete or he died for only some sins.

Unbelief may well be a sin. It is also atoned for. Jesus said one sin cannot be FORGIVEN. That is a personal thing. Atonement is a legal thing. If someone kills your mother, that person may be caught, tried, and convicted, and perhaps put to death. Legally, that murder is atoned for.

That has nothing to do, however, with whether or not you have forgiven, or are even willing to forgive, the murderer.

Legally, all sins were atoned for on the cross. Personally, there is a sin God will not forgive. The sin against the Holy Spirit is not just what the Pharisees did. If we note that Jesus defined the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Truth and that Paul says, in Romans 1, that God's anger is being poured out on those who suppress the truth by their wicked actions, then we can start letting Bible explain Bible and realize that those who refuse the truth and continue refusing it are on the road to the lie, as that is the only other road to take. Those, however, who seek the truth will be brought by the Father to the Son, who refuses no one the Father brings to Him.

What you do with the truth in your life is a matter of, in the long run, what you do with the Holy Spirit. If you refuse Him, that has been atoned for, but it will never be forgiven.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> In the analogy of the cashier declaring the Savior was in the store and giving out gifts,how were the corpses able to get themselves alive in order to waddle over and pick up their gifts?

I take it you are referring to "dead in sin". This is just that...not dead to make decisions or "waddle" to pick up your gift. </font>[/QUOTE]"Dead" is separated from, not unconscious. When we die physically, we are separated from our bodies. Now our bodies may then be unconscious, but we ourselves are not. Spiritual death is separation from God, not spiritual unconsciousness.

 

[HankD]

Then Jesus paid for the sins of All. If Jesus paid for the sins of ALL then what will the lost be punished for? Didn't Jesus pay the price for ALL? Are they punsished for sins that Jesus already paid for? Or did Jesus die for ALL and only pay the sin penalty for the elect?

He paid for (propitiated) the sins of all therefore all are His even the wicked to do with as He pleases.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Who are we to say that He cannot punish the wicked even though He paid for their sins?

He does what He pleases with or without our permission.

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

HankD

 

[Brutus]

Here's the problem with saying Christ died for all the same way He died for His Bride. If Christ died for the sins of those who are finally lost, the same way He died for the sins of those who are finally saved, then what are the lost being punished for?
Were their sins their sins covered and canceled by the blood of Jesus or not? We Christians say, "Christ died for our sins," 1Cor.15:3. And we mean that His death paid the debt those sins created. His death removed the wrath of God from me. His death lifted the curse of the law from me. His death purchased heaven for me. It really did accomplish those things! But what would it mean to say of an unbeliever in hell that Christ died for his sins? Would we mean that the debt for his sins was paid? If so, why is he paying again in hell? Would we mean that the wrath of God was removed? If so, why is the wrath of God being poured out on him in punishment for sins? Would we mean that the curse of the law was lifted? If so, why is he bearing his curse inthe lake of fire?

Michael

 

[James_Newman]

It means you need to go out into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by HankD:
&lt;snip&gt;


He paid for (propitiated) the sins of all therefore all are His even the wicked to do with as He pleases.

Big problem there, HankD. If Jesus Christ paid for all the sins of all men, then all the sins of all men had to have been cancelled by virtue of the blood.
For somebody's sin to have been cancelled, guaranteed forgiven thru the propitiation of Christ, and then that somebody required to once more account for all sin at the Great White Throne judgment, then God has become inconsistent and the blood untrustworthy.

[QUOTE

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Who are we to say that He cannot punish the wicked even though He paid for their sins?

[/QUOTE]

Because nothing in the Scripture says He paid for the sins of ALL men, but really forgives only some. If He paid for your sins, then He forgave you all your sins, and have accepted you in the beloved.

He does what He pleases with or without our permission.

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Which squares exactly with what He told Moses and which Paul quoted in Romans:

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and compassion on whom I have compassion.

The flipside of which is He will exact justice on whom He will exact justice, and vengeance on whom He will have vengeance.

And Paul asks: shall the clay say to the potter, why hast thou made me thus ?
HankD [/QB][/QUOTE]

 

[Brother Ian]

All, everyone that has ever been born. Every one. Mankind. All people.

 

[Helen]

Because nothing in the Scripture says He paid for the sins of ALL men, but really forgives only some. If He paid for your sins, then He forgave you all your sins, and have accepted you in the beloved.


Payment and forgiveness are two entirely different things. The sins are ALL paid for. And all are forgiven....except one -- the sin which removes you from being able to accept that forgiveness.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
Payment and forgiveness are two entirely different things. The sins are ALL paid for. And all are forgiven....except one -- the sin which removes you from being able to accept that forgiveness.

How could God pay for a sin but not forgive it, and still be just? And why would God pay for a sin but not forgive it?

 

[Helen]

The why is up to Him. The how is simple -- you can legally pay a debt, which Christ did for us on the cross, and still not forgive the debtor in terms of how you feel about him/her or whether you want anything to do with him/her.

Forgiving the debt was not done. It was PAID. That's different. Forgiving the person is a personal thing which has to do with relationships.

 

[whatever]

The 'how' was really more about 'how is God just' if He pays for our sin but still holds it against us. How is that just?

Paul puts it this way: "He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?" Yet your idea has God giving up his Son for us all but then withholding forgiveness from some of us anyway. I don't think that fits.

 

[HankD]

Because nothing in the Scripture says He paid for the sins of ALL men, but really forgives only some. If He paid for your sins, then He forgave you all your sins, and have accepted you in the beloved.

It's in the word propitiation. Without the propitiation (satisfaction) of the wrath of God by the Blood of Christ no one could or would even be considered for forgiveness.
No one could even approach Him.
It does not guarantee justification but makes it possible.

The entire race of Adam including the wicked were purchased back from death by the Atonement and we are all going to live forever somewhere.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

It is the basis of the resurrection of the dead both "good and evil".

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Propitiation does not guarantee justification.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Just because the wrath of God for sin is satisfied by the Blood Atonement does not inhibit God from pouring out His wrath on those who reject that satisfaction: His Only Begotten Son.

Believe what you will. I'm done.
Not angry, just done.

HankD