Did Christ die for everyone or just for the elect?

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
Most evangelical churches today say that Jesus loves you over the tv airwaves to anyone watching. Also that he died just for you. But is this really scriptural? I have always believed the bible teaches that the Father elected a certain mass of people called the elect and Christ came to bear their sins on the cross.I Pet 2:24

God does love the world – John 3:16

All who are the elect of the Father will be drawn by the Holy Spirit through the call of the gospel to Christ. This to me cannot be true for those who are non believers, especially atheists and millions of others who are Muslims in the world. And most of these non believers live and die in this state.

John 12:32, ”And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” All are drawn to the Cross, but I fear most will leave their sins at the Cross. We that died with Him at the Cross are dead to the law so we have no knowledge of sin, Romans 3:20; 5:13. We are under Grace and not Law, Romans 6:14.

What do you say? And why isn't this taught more in fundamental evangelical churches today?

Scripture seems to point to those of Israel to be of the “elect”, the “Elect” being Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Then as the Body of Christ becomes known, we (me) Gentiles in this Grace Through Faith period may accept the gift becoming the “elect” also, along with a “remnant” of “elect” Jews, today. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[Robert J Hutton]

A fellow BB member asked why bring up a book by Dave Hunt; yes Mr Hunt is only a man but he has had the courage to stick his neck out and publicly repudiate what amounts to a libel against God. If a person simply picks up the Bible and reads it they would come to the obvious conclusion that Christ died for all without exception.

Kind regards to all.

Bob

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by ituttut:
Scripture seems to point to those of Israel to be of the “elect”, the “Elect” being Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Then as the Body of Christ becomes known, we (me) Gentiles in this Grace Through Faith period may accept the gift becoming the “elect” also, along with a “remnant” of “elect” Jews, today. Christian faith, ituttut

Paul makes it plain that "it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham". The questions are 1) when "those of faith" were chosen for salvation, 2) who chose them, and 3) why they were chosen. The big problem I have with your view is that I don't see the Bible saying that people "become the elect" after they believe. The Bible often speaks of people being chosen by God for some purpose before they were even born. I cannot think of an instance where it speaks of someone becoming chosen for a role because of something they did in life.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Robert J Hutton:
If a person simply picks up the Bible and reads it they would come to the obvious conclusion that Christ died for all without exception.

I read the Bible and came to the conclusion that if Christ died for all without exception, and yet some are not saved, then salvation must require something more than Christ's death. There are questions about "limited atonement" that trouble me but this idea, that Christ's death in and of itself is not sufficient to save those whom it was intended to save, is something that I cannot accept.

 

[Vlad_IL]

Originally posted by whatever:
The 'how' was really more about 'how is God just' if He pays for our sin but still holds it against us. How is that just?

Paul puts it this way: "He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?" Yet your idea has God giving up his Son for us all but then withholding forgiveness from some of us anyway. I don't think that fits.

The problem is that you are forgetting that forgiveness must be ACCEPTED. Those who REJECT God's forgiveness perish, those who ACCEPT Him, receive eternal life...

John 1:12 But as many as received Him , to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name...

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Vlad_IL:
The problem is that you are forgetting that forgiveness must be ACCEPTED. Those who REJECT God's forgiveness perish, those who ACCEPT Him, receive eternal life...

I didn't forget that. That is the very question. Why is it just for God to require you to accept the payment that He made to Himself on the cross on your behalf? As Paul said in Romans 8:32, how could God give His Son for us and then leave us lacking in anything else that He requires (including faith)?

 

[JWI]

I heard a preacher say that all people's names are originally in the book of life. However, those who do not accept Christ are blotted out of the book. There are quite a few verses that seem to support this view.

Exd 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

Exd 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Exd 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Believeing means to cease from works and trust or rely completely ON Christ. I compare it to jumping out of an airplane with a parachute. In this situation, you place yourself in a completely helpless state. If the parachute fails, you will plunge to your death.

I trust completely in Jesus to get me to heaven. I am glad and grateful that I do not have to earn salvation through works. I have not gotten too far in this world through my works, I know for certain that I would fail if I tried to earn heaven.

Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

As for election, I believe that God chose or elected from the beginning to save those who would trust in Jesus.

I also believe that God knew from the beginning who would choose to trust in Jesus. I used to ask myself why God would create a person whom he knew would reject Christ.

Then I realized that it must be so. We must have free choice. If not, we would be mere robots. Love involves free will. It would not be love if we had no choice. No, God wants those who choose him from their own free will. And God must also give the choice to perish to those who reject him.

If a person perishes, it is their own fault and personal choice.

 

[Ron Arndt]

Where does scripture say that the death of Christ made it possible for men's sins to be forgiven?

 

[JWI]

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins

Comment- There is two verses that directly link the death and resurrection of Christ to forgiveness of sins.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

These verses show that we have forgiveness of sins through Jesus's blood which he shed for us. The Bible teaches there is no forgiveness of sin without shedding of blood.

Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 

[Helen]

whatever, it is not a matter of what you, personally, can or cannot accept. It is a matter of what is true -- what the Bible says. Whether anyone accepts it or not has no bearing on its validity.

 

[Michaelt]

Originally posted by Helen:
whatever, it is not a matter of what you, personally, can or cannot accept. It is a matter of what is true -- what the Bible says. Whether anyone accepts it or not has no bearing on its validity.

Well said Helen.

 

[Salamander]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Vlad_IL:
The problem is that you are forgetting that forgiveness must be ACCEPTED. Those who REJECT God's forgiveness perish, those who ACCEPT Him, receive eternal life...

I didn't forget that. That is the very question. Why is it just for God to require you to accept the payment that He made to Himself on the cross on your behalf? As Paul said in Romans 8:32, how could God give His Son for us and then leave us lacking in anything else that He requires (including faith)? </font>[/QUOTE]Answer: BELIEVING, but then that is the first step of salvation; repentence the next, but only after Bible PREACHING!!! For God chose the foolishness of preaching to save them which believe. Without faith it is impossible to please God, to the point of God granting said person the space of repentence of sin while under conviction.

This really isn't a "hard issue", except for those who only want to complicate things and thereby frustrate the grace of God.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
whatever, it is not a matter of what you, personally, can or cannot accept. It is a matter of what is true -- what the Bible says. Whether anyone accepts it or not has no bearing on its validity.

Hi Helen,

What you say is true, of course, but where does the Bible say that Christ's death is not sufficient to save those whom it was intended to save?

Plus, I don't think you ever did address Romans 8:32. Paul says that if God would give his Son for us then God would also give us all things. You say that God gave his Son for everyone but then He does not give forgiveness to some. How is that just on God's part?

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Salamander:
Answer: BELIEVING, but then that is the first step of salvation; repentence the next, but only after Bible PREACHING!!! For God chose the foolishness of preaching to save them which believe. Without faith it is impossible to please God, to the point of God granting said person the space of repentence of sin while under conviction.

This really isn't a "hard issue", except for those who only want to complicate things and thereby frustrate the grace of God.

I ask why God does not grant faith to all for whom Christ died, and you answer that it is because they do not believe.

And then you say that this is not a hard issue, as if I am the one who does not understand the question.

I am really not sure how to respond.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
whatever, it is not a matter of what you, personally, can or cannot accept. It is a matter of what is true -- what the Bible says. Whether anyone accepts it or not has no bearing on its validity.

Hi Helen,

What you say is true, of course, but where does the Bible say that Christ's death is not sufficient to save those whom it was intended to save?

Plus, I don't think you ever did address Romans 8:32. Paul says that if God would give his Son for us then God would also give us all things. You say that God gave his Son for everyone but then He does not give forgiveness to some. How is that just on God's part? </font>[/QUOTE]whatever, forgiveness is a two-way street. If you hurt me, I can have forgiveness in my heart but if you never apologize, how will you know or experience that forgiveness? It was there for you, but you refused it. Thus, effectively, there was no forgiveness for you. The other way works, too. If you are really sorry and I refuse to soften my heart towards you, then even though you want forgiveness and would certainly be open to receiving it, it is not there for you.

To all who look to Christ, forgiveness is complete. It is given and accepted. To those who refuse Christ, they also refuse forgiveness. Thus that is the one sin that CANNOT be forgiven because it is the sin of refusing the source of forgiveness.

That is apart from whether or not the sin debt has been paid, which it has.

It has nothing to do with justice. It has to do with God's mercy and man's stubborn and prideful heart in his natural state, refusing that mercy. It's the little kid defying parental help and saying "Leave me alone, I can do it myself!" Only those who say that are not adopted into the family of God, so that is a very limited analogy! But the attitude is the same.

Refusing Christ refuses all He brings with Him -- which is indeed all things, just as Romans 8:32 says.

 

[whatever]

Helen,

I can forgive you without your permission. People do it every day.

If refusing Christ is the only sin that cannot be forgiven, and the reason is that I won't ask, then why does God forgive all of those other sins that I don't ask Him to forgive?

And, Romans 8:32 does not say that any of the things that God gives to those for whom Christ was given are contingent on their response.

 

[Helen]

Of course you can forgive me without my permission. But unless I repent, that forgiveness is not effective in my life and it is as though I were never forgiven.

If I am drowning, and you throw me a life ring and I refuse it, I will drown.

Refusing what is offered means that the gift is not effective or affective in one's life. The gift may be there, but it is what one does with it that counts.

John's baptism was the baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

"This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:46-47

When Paul was confronted by Jesus on the road to Damascus, here is what Paul records Jesus as saying:
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuing. Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. I wil rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn the from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me." Acts 26:15-18

The sins were already atoned for on the cross. But the forgiveness had to be received in order to be effectual in their lives.

You wrote: If refusing Christ is the only sin that cannot be forgiven, and the reason is that I won't ask, then why does God forgive all of those other sins that I don't ask Him to forgive?

The reason is not even that one will not ask, it is that one will not accept what is offered, asked for or not. When you and I came to Christ, we WANTED forgiveness for we had repented from our former sinful lives, right? That repentance meant we were ready to receive His forgiveness. And all was forgiven. Even sins we did not remember having committed. We repented of who we were, living in opposition to God by nature, and thus all of who we were and what we did was forgiven.

Remember that Romans 8:32 does not stand alone in the Bible. Bible interprets Bible. That is the first law for a Christian. So look at the verses above and think of Romans 8:32 in that light.

 

[TCassidy]

Wow! All this works based salvation is making me ill.

Anybody who has actually read the bible knows that repentance is not something we do, it is a gift God gives us. 2Timothy 2:25b "if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth."

That would be so refreshing here, that people would acknowledge the truth!

 

[whatever]

Helen,

Nevermind.

Just one thing - you say:

Remember that Romans 8:32 does not stand alone in the Bible. Bible interprets Bible. That is the first law for a Christian. So look at the verses above and think of Romans 8:32 in that light.

Do you really think I have not read Romans 8:32 in its context? There is nothing in all of creation that will prevent God from accomplishing His will toward us. Not even us.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ituttut:
Scripture seems to point to those of Israel to be of the “elect”, the “Elect” being Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Then as the Body of Christ becomes known, we (me) Gentiles in this Grace Through Faith period may accept the gift becoming the “elect” also, along with a “remnant” of “elect” Jews, today. Christian faith, ituttut

Paul makes it plain that "it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham". The questions are 1) when "those of faith" were chosen for salvation, 2) who chose them, and 3) why they were chosen. The big problem I have with your view is that I don't see the Bible saying that people "become the elect" after they believe.

I see you also use the 5 “w’s”, applying where appropriate for understanding, but I believe here we need the ever present “how” for this subject. To arrive at an opinion that is supported by scripture we must know “how” it is possible for anyone to be of the “elect”. As we cannot “elect” ourselves, we therefore cannot be “elected” before we believe.

“Who” is the “Elect”. The “elect” is really not we, but Jesus Christ - Isaiah 42:1, ”Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.” Who, when, where, why, and for what purpose did Jesus Christ then “choose” His “Elect”? Isaiah 45: 1-7, …………….4 ” For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me………..” We see in the synoptic gospels that Jesus, without equivocation, tells us He only came for His own, His nation His sheep, only those of the “physical seed” of Abraham, not Abram. There is no place for those of Ishmael, and no place for the gentile. Scripture shows He has chosen whom He will. It is not until after Damascus Road that all will become known.

The Bible often speaks of people being chosen by God for some purpose before they were even born. I cannot think of an instance where it speaks of someone becoming chosen for a role because of something they did in life. </font>[/QUOTE]Are you here speaking of “something they did in life”, as accepting the gift or doing a work? There is a difference, as to the spiritual and the physical. Accepting the free gift is not doing something physically in the flesh, but choosing the One Who Did All Of The Work For US. Who are the “chosen”? They are we that “choose” Him, becoming the “elect” for we are in the “Elect”. Are we predestined? Scripture tells us we are. I am in the Body of Christ, so I must have been “predestined”. I couldn’t have done it on my own. He first loved me (predestined), and I love Him (predestined). Christian faith, ituttut