Did Christ die for everyone or just for the elect?

John B.

How active is the Founders Movement in Texas?

 

Their site is www.founders.org.

From their list of "friend" churches, looks like there are about 50 congregation in the state.

I would never have heard of them except that I was once a 5PC and am an internet junkie.
I don't suppose that 99% of Baptists in Texas have ever heard of them.

 

Well that's a shame! Looks like Southern Baptists in Texas would be more interested in their heritage than that.

 

I think folks here in Texas are more concerned about true, biblical doctrine than they are "heritage."

Perhaps in Missouri they prefer tradition over scripture?

 

No we just prefer truth whatever the source and happen to believe that men who founded the SBC have as much to tell us about doctrine and Biblical Interpretation as do the current leaders.

 

Hardsheller, you asked me a question on this thread that I started another thread by answering:
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3225.html

 

The Bible is clear that salvation is available to all men.

What does "whosoever" mean?

It means any person at any time whatsoever.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This is just a few of the verses that make it clear that salvation through Christ is available to all.

It is a free choice available to all.

I am with TexasSky. God has elected (chosen) that whosoever meets the requirement for salvation (trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation) shall be saved.

 

I have recently read "Debating Calvinism - 5 points 2 views" by James White and Dave Hunt. Mr Hunt's refutation of Calvinism is outstanding and I would urge BB members tempted to embrace Calvinism to obtain a copy and read it carefully with an open mind.

Kind regards to all.

Bob

 

Johnb: can you please provide proof of Spurgeon denying regeneration preceeding faith?

Thanks, Brutus

 

Brutus,

Here is an excerpt from Spurgeon's "Warrant of Faith" sermon:

"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate.

But you will tell me that I ought to preach it only to those who repent of their sins. Very well; but since true repentance of sin is the work of the Spirit, any man who has repentance is most certainly saved, because evangelical repentance never can exist in an unrenewed soul. Where there is repentance there is faith already, for they never can be separated.

So, then, I am only to preach faith to those who have it. Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners. "Nay," saith one, "but we mean that a man must have some good desires towards Christ before he has any warrant to believe in Jesus." Friend, do you not know what all good desires have some degree of holiness in them? But if a sinner hath any degree of true holiness in him it must be the work of the Spirit, for true holiness never exists in the carnal mind, therefore, that man is already renewed, and therefore saved.

Are we to go running up and down the world, proclaiming life to the living, casting bread to those who are fed already, and holding up Christ on the pole of the gospel to those who are already healed? My brethren, where is our inducement to labour where our efforts are so little needed?

If I am to preach Christ to those who have no goodness, who have nothing in them that qualifies them for mercy, then I feel I have a gospel so divine that I would proclaim it with my last breath, crying aloud, that "Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—sinners as sinners, not as penitent sinners or as awakened sinners, but sinners as sinners, sinners "of whom I am chief."

 

JohnB: Ok, maybe I'm blind or just downright ignorant but I see nowhere within that excerpt of Spurgeon's sermon where he denies that regeneration preceeds faith. Help me here!!


Brutus

 

In the opening when Spurgeon says..."If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate.

He is absolutely right. If all of God's "elect" are regenerated prior to faith in Him, it is pointless to preach "believe and be saved", as regeneration is just that. Who then should we preach to? If the "elect" are already regenerated prior to faith, they are saved. If the reprobate have no chance of becoming the "elect", it is pointless to preach to them.

 

Webdog: Where can I locate the sermon in question? I would like to read it in its entirety.

Brutus

 

I am not sure. I quoted from the article Johnb posted.

 

WARRANT OF FAITH </font>[/QUOTE]From Spurgeon's sermon:

The thief on the Cross may have had some experience, but I do not find him pleading it; he turns his eye to Jesus, saying, "Lord, remember me !" How prompt is the reply, "To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise." He may have had longing desires, he may have had deep convictions, but I
am quite sure he did not say, "Lord, I dare not ask thee to remember me, because I do not feel I have repented enough. I dare not trust thee,
because I have not been shaken over hell's mouth." No, no, no; he looked to Jesus as he was, and Jesus responded to his believing prayer. It must be so with you, my brethren, for any other plan but that of a sinner's coming to Christ as a sinner, and resting on Jesus just as he is, is utterly incomprehensible, or, if it is to be explained at all, will require a day or two to explain it ill; and that cannot be the gospel which the apostles preached to dying men.


I guess the thief on the cross was just lucky. If he had not been one of the elect I suppose Christ would have had to reject his request. Does that mean that the doctrine of the elect constrains God's actions? Can He change someone's eternal destiny at will?

I would suppose that the Calvinist reply is that God had already preordained the one thief to make this request and have eternal life and for the other thief to reject Christ and be eternally damned. Uh, oh I'm getting aq little "hyper" here.

 

Interesting; I find that Spurgeon was engaged in a battle with Hyper-Calvinists to which the Warrent of Faith was preached. Also He held to the Baptist Confession of Faith. Do any of you hold to it as well?


Brutus

 

If you mean the 1689 London Baptist Confession, no, I do not adhere to it.

 

That's the one. Spurgeon did. Here's what it says about regeneration: This efectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead. Chapter 10, section 2.

Brutus

 

Good for Spurgie. You are merely affirming my initial point, that Spurgeon made statements which contradicted what he claimed to believe.

So did Criswell. So do most "Calvinist" preachers. When they move from the realm of pure theology to actual gospel preaching, most "Calvinists" become calminians. They tell everyone that Jesus died for them and they call on all men to make a volitional act of the will to appropriate this salvation, to believe and repent.