-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Did Christ die for Judas the traitor ?
- Thread starter savedbymercy
- Start date
savedbymercy
New Member
Whole World
1 Jn 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Ultimately, we are not to judge a phrase in the bible by what it means in a natural carnal sense, but on how it is used in scripture and accordance to overall truth of the scripture on any given subject !
Now, Why whole world does not necessarily mean every single individual without exception as false teachers and believers teach about 1 Jn 2:2 so they can support the heresy that denies limited atonement, a Gospel Truth !
Lets look at Two passages that the phrase Whole World does not mean everyone without exception. First in the very same book as we find 1 Jn 2:2, lets look at 1 Jn 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
Now the Whole World here cannot mean everyone without exception, for John and those He was writing unto are clearly the exception !
John is speaking here of only a World that is under the control and power of satan !
Secondly John gives us another time where this phrase Whole World is used and it cannot mean everyone without exception. Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
For in this case, the Whole World is limited to only those whose names were not written in the Lambs Book of Life Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
You see, the fact of the matter is this, that the antichristian world of religious but unsaved and unredeemed people make up a whole World of its own, and True Believers in Christ [The saved] constitute a Whole World, which are these Rev 7:9-10
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 5:9
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
The Redeemed is the Whole World of 1 Jn 2:2 !
1 Jn 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Ultimately, we are not to judge a phrase in the bible by what it means in a natural carnal sense, but on how it is used in scripture and accordance to overall truth of the scripture on any given subject !
Now, Why whole world does not necessarily mean every single individual without exception as false teachers and believers teach about 1 Jn 2:2 so they can support the heresy that denies limited atonement, a Gospel Truth !
Lets look at Two passages that the phrase Whole World does not mean everyone without exception. First in the very same book as we find 1 Jn 2:2, lets look at 1 Jn 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
Now the Whole World here cannot mean everyone without exception, for John and those He was writing unto are clearly the exception !
John is speaking here of only a World that is under the control and power of satan !
Secondly John gives us another time where this phrase Whole World is used and it cannot mean everyone without exception. Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
For in this case, the Whole World is limited to only those whose names were not written in the Lambs Book of Life Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
You see, the fact of the matter is this, that the antichristian world of religious but unsaved and unredeemed people make up a whole World of its own, and True Believers in Christ [The saved] constitute a Whole World, which are these Rev 7:9-10
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 5:9
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
The Redeemed is the Whole World of 1 Jn 2:2 !
saturneptune
New Member
I wish I had been close to that in my GPA. I had one Associates with a 3.4 in Arts, then got another Associates in Medical Administration after retiring. I never did get a Bachelors, but that has nothing do with the thread. I was an electronics tech and network tech most of my life, and was trained mostly at vocational schools, but it gave me the skills to do the job.
Getting back to Judas, one of the most fascinating studies I found about him was comparing him to Peter, who also was an apostle and betrayed Jesus. Of course, the study gets into election, predestination, and the intent of the heart. Despite all of his faults and failures, Peter did love the Lord. The heart of Judas was evil from the start. There is much more to it than that.
I do not know how to answer the technical question, did Jesus die for Judas, as Jesus died for all who have faith in Him. I know Jesus is my Savior, and except for the grace of God, I could have been in Judas's shoes, so I am not about to put Judas through the ringer. Judas did show remorse at the end, but was it a Godly remorse, or was it a worldly sorrow?
As usual, good posts.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
Where does it say Judas was evil from the start?
I did not know that.
I did not know that.
Yeah, because they forgot the asterisk after every man.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
This scripture disagrees with Mr Saturneptune:
Luke 22:3 "Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve."
If Judas had an "evil heart from the start", Satan would of already been there, with no need to "enter him" at this late hour.
Judas also went out with the rest and performed miracles as Jesus instructed them. If his heart was "evil from the start", this bad tree could not of produced good fruit.
It was not until much later that Judas had an evil heart, when Satan entered toward the end of Jesus' ministry, in my opinion.
Back to the OP: Did Jesus die for Judus? Of course he did.
saturneptune
New Member
One does not have to have Satan in him to be evil from the start. From a man who believes in tongues, believes others are physically raised from the dead, and calls most he encounters unsaved, IMO you have no more credibility than Judas. My new hobby is to see you banned.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
Ok thank you. Something I did not look into.
saturneptune
New Member
Imagine that.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
How's the hobby goin?
savedbymercy
New Member
2 Cor 5:19
A scripture that those who are part of that world that satan has deceived Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
A scripture that they wrest to their own destruction is 2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
They do this by willfully and ignorantly, carelessly insisting that the World here means everyone without exception, ,when it plainly states here that those whom comprise this world, that they have not had their sins charged to them, so it is consisting of all blessed men as per Rom 4:8
8 Blessed is the man or men to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Thats what Paul is saying about that World in 2 Cor 5:19, it is a World whom the Lord will not impute sin ! Not saying that these blessed ones are not guilty of sin or that they are not as other men sinners and transgressors of God's Law, but God out of a Gracious Act of Justification and Remission of sin, just does not lay their sins to their charge ! Its like when David says this Ps 103:10
10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
Because He does not legally charge them to us, and the World in 2 Cor 5:19.
Now it is very evident that God does charge some men with their sins, for such a verse as this teaches it John 8:24
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
That can be True only if their sins are being charged to them !
Now how is it even remotely possible for these to die in their sins, if indeed they were part of the World in 2 Cor 5:19 ? For if that were so, they would have no sins of theirs charged to them in the first place, lest scripture did lie in 2 Cor 5:19 ! So to understand 2 Cor 5:19 as meaning everyone without exception is pure spiritual ignorance and willful at that. Those who willfully failed to search these things out in scripture, understanding how the word World is used biblically by the Spirit, they are guilty as these illustrated Matt 25:24-30
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
They refuse to search the scriptures, to study the scriptures for truth, and are satisfied with their preconceived rationale in these matters and end up as the proverb said Prov 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Thats that broad way Jesus speaks of here Matt 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
And if you or myself are one who believes and teaches that 2 Cor 5:19 means everyone in the World without exception, then we are on that broad way that leadeth to destruction !
A scripture that those who are part of that world that satan has deceived Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
A scripture that they wrest to their own destruction is 2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
They do this by willfully and ignorantly, carelessly insisting that the World here means everyone without exception, ,when it plainly states here that those whom comprise this world, that they have not had their sins charged to them, so it is consisting of all blessed men as per Rom 4:8
8 Blessed is the man or men to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Thats what Paul is saying about that World in 2 Cor 5:19, it is a World whom the Lord will not impute sin ! Not saying that these blessed ones are not guilty of sin or that they are not as other men sinners and transgressors of God's Law, but God out of a Gracious Act of Justification and Remission of sin, just does not lay their sins to their charge ! Its like when David says this Ps 103:10
10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
Because He does not legally charge them to us, and the World in 2 Cor 5:19.
Now it is very evident that God does charge some men with their sins, for such a verse as this teaches it John 8:24
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
That can be True only if their sins are being charged to them !
Now how is it even remotely possible for these to die in their sins, if indeed they were part of the World in 2 Cor 5:19 ? For if that were so, they would have no sins of theirs charged to them in the first place, lest scripture did lie in 2 Cor 5:19 ! So to understand 2 Cor 5:19 as meaning everyone without exception is pure spiritual ignorance and willful at that. Those who willfully failed to search these things out in scripture, understanding how the word World is used biblically by the Spirit, they are guilty as these illustrated Matt 25:24-30
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
They refuse to search the scriptures, to study the scriptures for truth, and are satisfied with their preconceived rationale in these matters and end up as the proverb said Prov 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Thats that broad way Jesus speaks of here Matt 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
And if you or myself are one who believes and teaches that 2 Cor 5:19 means everyone in the World without exception, then we are on that broad way that leadeth to destruction !
saturneptune
New Member
Just keep flapping those jaws.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
It is no different than you antagonizing all my posts, I tried to make amends but you hold a grudge, and wont forgive. I apologized once. Let's agree to avoid each other or make peace shall we?
saturneptune
New Member
As long as you are on this board, telling my brothers and sisters in Christ they are unbelievers, and spreading false doctrine, I am going to be in your face.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
Lol, I dont know what you think you will accomplish, but so be it.
:applause:
The board is for all no matter how diverse the opinion may be. Please debate the topic and not attack the person.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Jesus Christ did not die for Judas!