Did Christ Die Only for the Elect

[thegospelgeek]

take the word "might" out of John 3:17 and He did, but you can't and be right.

Sal,

I'm a little confused here. Are you saying Yes Chist died for only the elect, or that he died for all?

 

[webdog]

and complete John 3:17 with verse 18:
He that believes on Him is not condemned; but he that believes not IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he has not believed in te name of the only begotten Son of God" This tied in wth all the other verses that clearly show that man is condemned already, except all the elect shall be saved.

We cannot intepret any scripture in isolation.

Cheers,

Jim

I highlighted the bold to show you how one's theology can be used to interpret Scripture. It doesn't say what you stated, it says those who believed not were condemned already. For someone not to believe something takes refusal of the object not believed in.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Depends on what you mean by "elect."

No, it actually depends on what you mean by "for." Do you mean "in the place of"? Do you mean something along the lines of sufficiency? Effectuality? What exactly do you mean by for? This is the key word.

For someone not to believe something takes refusal of the object not believed in.

Not at all. It might mean someone has never heard of the object and therefore doesn't believe because they don't know it exists. It might mean tacit refusal rather than explicit refusal.

 

[webdog]

Not at all. It might mean someone has never heard of the object and therefore doesn't believe because they don't know it exists. It might mean tacit refusal rather than explicit refusal.

What you describe is not unbelief.

Unbelief \Un`be*lief"\, n. [Pref. un- not + belief: cf. AS.
ungele['a]fa.]
1. The withholding of belief; doubt; incredulity; skepticism.

 

[mparkerfd20]

When you ask about a specific passage, please post the biblical reference. Where is this?

He's talking about Hebrews 12:16-17, which is talking about repentance with his earthly father, Isaac.

KJV
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

ESV
Heb 12:16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.
Heb 12:17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

ASV
Heb 12:16 lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one mess of meat sold his own birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected; for he found no place for a change of mind in his father, though he sought is diligently with tears.

 

[webdog]

He's talking about Hebrews 12:16-17, which is talking about repentance with his earthly father, Isaac.

KJV
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

ESV
Heb 12:16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.
Heb 12:17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

ASV
Heb 12:16 lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one mess of meat sold his own birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected; for he found no place for a change of mind in his father, though he sought is diligently with tears.

..which doesnt' support his claim in the least

 

[Marcia]

He's talking about Hebrews 12:16-17, which is talking about repentance with his earthly father, Isaac.

KJV
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

ESV
Heb 12:16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.
Heb 12:17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

ASV
Heb 12:16 lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one mess of meat sold his own birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected; for he found no place for a change of mind in his father, though he sought is diligently with tears.

Thanks, Webdog.

I agree, this does not support his claim. Clearly Esau was not truly repentant. He just wanted the inheritance back.

 

[Dr. Bob]

I like the word "particular".

Many use "Limited Atonement" as a key phrase, but that offends many who misconstrue it to mean that the atonement was not "sufficient" to save all mankind or that there were not benefits to everyone, to society, yea, even to creation itself.

But "Particular Redemption" is much less misunderstood. Jesus actually shed His blood, atoned for and redeemed His chosen ones (from before the world's creation). The blood applies to those particular ones.

The rest? They continue merrily on their way to hell, continuing to reject God and righteousness and condemn themselves to a Christless eternity.

When Jesus dies for, atones for, pays for sin, redeems, etc, a soul, that soul is died for, atoned for, paid for and redeemed. Jesus paid it to the Father and it is a "done deal". His selected ones, beloved and for-known (know = intimate love relationship, nothing to do with "for-seeing") will respond. John 6 says that not ONE of those whom the Father gave the Son and for whom the Son dies will be lost. Not one!

 

[OldRegular]

I like the word "particular".

Many use "Limited Atonement" as a key phrase, but that offends many who misconstrue it to mean that the atonement was not "sufficient" to save all mankind or that there were not benefits to everyone, to society, yea, even to creation itself.

But "Particular Redemption" is much less misunderstood. Jesus actually shed His blood, atoned for and redeemed His chosen ones (from before the world's creation). The blood applies to those particular ones.

The rest? They continue merrily on their way to hell, continuing to reject God and righteousness and condemn themselves to a Christless eternity.

When Jesus dies for, atones for, pays for sin, redeems, etc, a soul, that soul is died for, atoned for, paid for and redeemed. Jesus paid it to the Father and it is a "done deal". His selected ones, beloved and for-known (know = intimate love relationship, nothing to do with "for-seeing") will respond. John 6 says that not ONE of those whom the Father gave the Son and for whom the Son dies will be lost. Not one!

I like your above post!:thumbsup:

 

[ray Marshall]

What question? Why Esau didn't find favor with God? I recall God blessed him, too, yet God said "if YOU do what is right..." to Cain, another person those claim were not "elect" from before the world began. It never came down to Esau being "elect" or not. It's reading into Scripture to state Christ didn't die for Esau, and the reason God sovereignly chose Jacob over Esau as the seed from which the Messiah would come can't be contained to a systematic theology.

Isaiah refer's to Christ as "God's Elect". Those in Him are also "God's Elect". We are in Him through faith. It's actually quite simple.

three different times in the books of the Bible, GOD said that Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated. Three different times should be a good testimony.
When the apostiles (?) ask Jesus about Judas, he told them that that wasn't any concern to them. Judas was of the Devil in the choosing the twelve to follow him. I think Judas was chosen for the work of betraying our savior.

Even so the Father raises the dead and quickeneth them, I quickeneth whomsoevcer I will. May not be word for word but................................
Has not the potter the power over the clay to make one of good and the other be shaped as he will.

 

[ray Marshall]

When you ask about a specific passage, please post the biblical reference. Where is this?

Hebrews Ch. 12;16,17

 

[ray Marshall]

That doesn't really explain the question. I believe he was sincere in his plea to GOD. Jacob was somewhat of a rascal. . Why did GOD make choose him even when he was a decieveing person? I think I will have to accept what GOD did and not ask questions. Even as JOB thought he would argue with him, GOD asked JOB some questions like, where were you when I formed the world and etc.

Lets see how this would work: You think that you are in charge of getting yourself saved and you feel very content.
Now let's say that GOD does all the work for your Salvation, and all of a sudden, you are worried. WHY, you think that man must do something to obtain eternal life.
IF I am saved, it will be only by the grace of GOD. Where are the holes in that exclamination?

 

[ray Marshall]

He's talking about Hebrews 12:16-17, which is talking about repentance with his earthly father, Isaac.

KJV
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

ESV
Heb 12:16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.
Heb 12:17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

ASV
Heb 12:16 lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one mess of meat sold his own birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected; for he found no place for a change of mind in his father, though he sought is diligently with tears.

The other versions you have quoted from takes away the true words of the KJV and makes it a muddy mess. I once looked in a bible of the Jehovah Witness and the shortest verse in the Bible is, "JESUS wept," made perfect sense, but in their Bible the verse read, "JESUS gave away to tears." Mighty confusing meaning. Did it mean that JESUS just gave into Mary, the sister on Lazereth because she was crying?

 

[Pastor Larry]

What you describe is not unbelief.

Unbelief \Un`be*lief"\, n. [Pref. un- not + belief: cf. AS.
ungele['a]fa.]
1. The withholding of belief; doubt; incredulity; skepticism.

Unbelief is the absence (un) of belief. It is someone who does not believe. It does not address the reason they don't believe.

Here you can check it out: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=unbelief

 

[Marcia]

When the apostiles (?) ask Jesus about Judas, he told them that that wasn't any concern to them. Judas was of the Devil in the choosing the twelve to follow him. I think Judas was chosen for the work of betraying our savior.

Where is the passage where the apostles ask about Judas and where Jesus tells them it wasn't their concern? I'm not finding it.

 

[Jerome]

I sure hope this is not the passage being referenced:

John 21:20-24
Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

 

[ray Marshall]

What question? Why Esau didn't find favor with God? I recall God blessed him, too, yet God said "if YOU do what is right..." to Cain, another person those claim were not "elect" from before the world began. It never came down to Esau being "elect" or not. It's reading into Scripture to state Christ didn't die for Esau, and the reason God sovereignly chose Jacob over Esau as the seed from which the Messiah would come can't be contained to a systematic theology.

Isaiah refer's to Christ as "God's Elect". Those in Him are also "God's Elect". We are in Him through faith. It's actually quite simple.

Jacob and Esau came from the same womb. Just what makes the difference that GOD chose to love Esau.

 

[ray Marshall]

Thanks, Webdog.

I agree, this does not support his claim. Clearly Esau was not truly repentant. He just wanted the inheritance back.

The Bible doesn't stress that. It says that Esau sought REPENDANCE CAREFULLY< WITH TEARS.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The Bible doesn't stress that. It says that Esau sought REPENDANCE CAREFULLY< WITH TEARS.

Yes, but it doesn't stress spiritual repentance. He tried to change his mind and get his inheritance back.

 

[Jon-Marc]

take the word "might" out of John 3:17 and He did, but you can't and be right.

As for the word "might", it was God's will for ALL to be saved, and He provided a way for all to be saved. However, He also knew that not all would be saved. It's true that no one can come to God unless the Holy Spirit draws them, but we're told in John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth (crucified), will draw all men unto me." "All" not just some.

Some take that to mean that everyone will be saved, but all it means is that He died for all and offers His forgiveness to all. So no one has the excuse that God rejected them or didn't die for them.

The only way I believe in "limited atonement" is that it is limited to those who believe since God will not save unrepentant sinners. His atonement is limited to those who come to Him for forgiveness.