Did Christ Die Only for the Elect

[zrs6v4]

Since He wills that all come to repentance, and some don't, what do you think? God permits sin, yet it is not His will that we sin, correct? Are we thwarting God's will when we sin?

Where is it that God says He "wills" all to be saved?

If He willed it wouldnt that mean that it will be done?

If you are speaking from 2 Peter 3:9 it doesnt say God "wills" but my ESV translation says God "wishes." Those are not the same word.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
The only man who was given free will was Adam and he chose rebellion rather than obedience and so man has ever since. I am sure that the following have been posted but you reading them once again won't hurt.

1Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ephesians 2.1-9 NKJV
1. And you (He made alive), who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2. in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3. among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7. that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Not that it will make any difference to you but please note that we were all dead and God, while we were dead, made us alive. Now Paul is not speaking about physical death and life but spiritual death and life. Also notice that this happened without any action whatsoever on man's part.

Response by webdog
That text says nothing of pre-faith regeneration. Of course man is separated (dead) from God due to sin...that's not the point. Your view also has a true believer unable to sin (dead to sin). What is dead, then? Separation, plain and simple.

The text in 1 Corinthians (written to beleivers) is speaking of the old nature a believer still has, and this nature (not the new) cannot discern the things of God.

I can read them all day long, but they out of context still don't support your view today, just like they haven't for a hundred years.

You are wrong on all counts. The natural man is the unregenerate man, the man dead in sin. He is, therefore, unable to exercise faith.

I said nothing, and the Scripture I posted said nothing, about the true believer being unable to sin.

The passage from Ephesians is not out of context but amplifies the Scripture in Ephesians 1:3-7

3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Nothing here about pre regenerate faith; simply that we are chosen, predestinated unto the adoption children by Jesus Christ, and made accepted in the beloved who is Jesus Christ.

The Apostle Paul makes the same point in Romans 8:28-30:

28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Nothing about pre regenerate faith here. Only the saving activity of God.
_____________

 

[Allan]

Again, man, simply read the verse and finish the sentence: God chose ______. When you use the Bible to finish that sentence, you will never come up with a method. It simply isn't there.


Except for your misunderstanding of sanctification you are exactly right. The verse says that salvation comes through setting apart and belief. It does not say that choosing comes through that.

You are failing to note that sanctification (hagiazo) does not always means spiritual growth after salvation. Study it out and you will see.

No I have not changed my view. Yes, sanctification and regeneration are separate things. And there is more than one meaning to sanctification.

Again, my appeal is simply to the text of Scripture. I don't think we need all these gymnastics you guys are using. You are making it way too hard when the text is clear.

Larry, my post was not dealing with choosing at all.

It was dealing with salvation and that the passage is not intended to be seen as a step by step but that both santification and faith result in salvation.

Also, of course sanctification is used for more that spiritual grouth but that was not my argument, mine pertained to setting aside not growth. The passage in Acts 26 regarding 'we are sanctified by faith' is speaking specifically of salvation - from darkness to light, from the power of Satan unto God, receiving the forgiveness of sin.

 

[webdog]

Where is it that God says He "wills" all to be saved?

If He willed it wouldnt that mean that it will be done?

If you are speaking from 2 Peter 3:9 it doesnt say God "wills" but my ESV translation says God "wishes." Those are not the same word.

The greek in question is boulomai

βούλομαι
boulomai
boo'-lom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb; to "will", that is, (reflexively) be willing: - be disposed, minded, intend, list (be, of own) will (-ing). Compare

For agrument's sake, let's use wish...what is the difference in your opinion? I know when I wish for something, it's out of my power to achieve it. Does that accurately portray God?

 

[webdog]

You are wrong on all counts. The natural man is the unregenerate man, the man dead in sin. He is, therefore, unable to exercise faith.

Wrong. The text is written to believers, and by extension us. We all still have the natural man (the greek means animal man), so the text is not speaking of the unregenerate. Please read the text without this false presupposition, and it will become clear what Paul was speaking about.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I know when I wish for something, it's out of my power to achieve it.

Probably not, if you think about it. You may wish for things that are out of your power, but most things you wish for are probably in your power. Think about some examples: I wish I got up earlier the morning. That is within my power. I wish I got more physical exercise. That is within my power. I wish I ate less, or whatever else. It is all within my power.

I might even say, "I wish I could go to the ballgame tonight, but I can't because I have a family activity that's more important." In that case, the wish is something I could bring about, but I have a higher priority--spending time with my family.

Does that accurately portray God?

Not as you put it. My above paragraph puts is better--That God has "wishes" he could bring about, but he doesn't because he has a higher priority.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The text is written to believers, and by extension us.

Yes, but that particular verse was not written 'about' believers. For all your harping on prepositions earlier, you are missing a key one here.

The natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God and does not understand them. That cannot be speaking of a believer because the believer does accept the things of the spirit of God. In the context, that is how he got saved.

We all still have the natural man

My Bible says that the old man was crucified with Christ (Rom 6).

(the greek means animal man),

I always love it when people cite Greek. Can you give us a resource for this meaning.

 

[ray Marshall]

Wrong. The text is written to believers, and by extension us. We all still have the natural man (the greek means animal man), so the text is not speaking of the unregenerate. Please read the text without this false presupposition, and it will become clear what Paul was speaking about.

Illistration: Things in nature= Adog barks, and bites and all that is in his nature. A dog cannot act like a rooster because that isn't its nature. and compare each thing GOD made in it's own nature. A man is also put into a nature and he doesn't seek the things of GOD until GOD himself ever changes him into a spiritual nature. A man CAN'T do nothing to obtain salvation until GOD changes his nature into a spiritual nature. A forth grader has no problem understanding this verse. John;6:37 All that the FATHER giveth me SHALL COME UNTO ME, and him that cometh unto me, I will no wise cast out.
verse 44 No man can come to me except the FATHER which has sent me draw me and I will raise him up at the last day.
John i,12 But as many as receive him to them gave him power to become the sons of GOD even to them that believe on his name:
It doesn't stop there, read the rest of the verse.
Another half text is used in John 6;37 Only the last part of the verse.
You can't preach "ALL MEN in what I have described to you. If you don't believe that, then preach the whole verses that are only applied by half text.

 

[OldRegular]

Yes, but that particular verse was not written 'about' believers. For all your harping on prepositions earlier, you are missing a key one here.

The natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God and does not understand them. That cannot be speaking of a believer because the believer does accept the things of the spirit of God. In the context, that is how he got saved.

My Bible says that the old man was crucified with Christ (Rom 6).

I always love it when people cite Greek. Can you give us a resource for this meaning.

Thanks Pastor Larry and Ray. Your responses mean more than mine would have.:thumbsup:

 

[zrs6v4]

The greek in question is boulomai

βούλομαι
boulomai
boo'-lom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb; to "will", that is, (reflexively) be willing: - be disposed, minded, intend, list (be, of own) will (-ing). Compare

For agrument's sake, let's use wish...what is the difference in your opinion? I know when I wish for something, it's out of my power to achieve it. Does that accurately portray God?

This is very interesting. I read out of the king James verison and it does say "not willing that anyone should perish but that all should come to repentance."

I think the words wishing vs willing are used similarly (idiom?). It seems to be implying that God doesnt want for anyone to perish and wouldnt wish that evil on anyone although it must and does happen due to our fallen nature. I really dont think we can say that God's Will is for none to perish or then universalism would be around the corner. Im not wanting to argue, haha, Im a newb. I do enjoy talking this over though, so please explain.

I also cant say your arguement says much by the way.
Example. I wish I could go to the mall and spend 100 dollars but its not in my budget although I really could if I went against myself because I do have the money (God's case, power). I would love to go to the mall and spend the money, and could, but its not my wise plan. I could also say that Im not willing "wishing" to to go spend 100 dollars at the mall, but I could. Yet Im not going to because its not my plan.
Am I seeing this right, if not, then please explain? thanks

 

[JustChristian]

Probably not, if you think about it. You may wish for things that are out of your power, but most things you wish for are probably in your power. Think about some examples: I wish I got up earlier the morning. That is within my power. I wish I got more physical exercise. That is within my power. I wish I ate less, or whatever else. It is all within my power.

I might even say, "I wish I could go to the ballgame tonight, but I can't because I have a family activity that's more important." In that case, the wish is something I could bring about, but I have a higher priority--spending time with my family.

Not as you put it. My above paragraph puts is better--That God has "wishes" he could bring about, but he doesn't because he has a higher priority.

We have priorities because we have limitations, time, money, strength, etc. God has no limitations. Who's to say that God cannot do whatever He wishes?

 

[webdog]

Probably not, if you think about it. You may wish for things that are out of your power, but most things you wish for are probably in your power. Think about some examples: I wish I got up earlier the morning. That is within my power. I wish I got more physical exercise. That is within my power. I wish I ate less, or whatever else. It is all within my power.

I might even say, "I wish I could go to the ballgame tonight, but I can't because I have a family activity that's more important." In that case, the wish is something I could bring about, but I have a higher priority--spending time with my family.

Not as you put it. My above paragraph puts is better--That God has "wishes" he could bring about, but he doesn't because he has a higher priority.

I'll concede that wish can also be something in our power to do, however, unless universalism is true, the way it was used in the above text would indicate something out of God's power, since there are those who do perish. I believe "wish" to be the wrong phrase, as those who perish do so according to God's permissive will, as well as His decretive will (believe not = damnation)

 

[Pastor Larry]

We have priorities because we have limitations, time, money, strength, etc. God has no limitations.

Can he cease to be God? Of course not. It is obvious God is limited by his own nature. He can't sin; he can't cease to exist; he can't be less than omnipotent; he can't lie. It is a popular argument to say that God has no limitations. However, it is not true.

Who's to say that God cannot do whatever He wishes?

I wouldn't say that. God can do whatever he wishes. The Bible says he does whatever he pleases.

In the context of salvation, if he was pleased to save everyone, he would. But he doesn't.

...the way it was used in the above text would indicate something out of God's power, since there are those who do perish.

I don't concede that at all. Saving everyone is not out of God's power. It is simply not what he does. There are a number of explanations of the verse; no legitimate explanation says it is outside of God's power.

 

[webdog]

I don't concede that at all. Saving everyone is not out of God's power. It is simply not what he does. There are a number of explanations of the verse; no legitimate explanation says it is outside of God's power.

If God has already decreed the way of salvation, can He then go against that? If not, He can't save everyone since He has stated who only can be saved.

 

[Pastor Larry]

If God has already decreed the way of salvation, can He then go against that? If not, He can't save everyone since He has stated who only can be saved.

Yes. But he decreed more than the way of salvation. He chose individuals to be saved. But his ability to save everyone is not one of omnipotence, but one of decree. I can do a lot of things that I decide not to do. So does God.