Did Christ Die Only for the Elect

[MB]

But we must always thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning [f] God has chosen (O) you for salvation through sanctification (P) by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

The means of being chosen for salvation are sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the Truth. It doesn't just say you were chosen from the beginning for salvation. You cannot separate the means of salvation from the purpose of what you were chosen for. The basis of choosing is connected via the work of the Holy Spirit and faith (belief in the Truth) in "God's Elect One".

Well said;
MB

 

[Pastor Larry]

The means of being chosen for salvation are sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the Truth.

But again, that's not what the text says. Salvation is by setting apart and belief. Just read the verse man.

It doesn't just say you were chosen from the beginning for salvation.

That's exactly what it says. Get it out and read it.

You cannot separate the means of salvation from the purpose of what you were chosen for.

I agree. But that's not the topic here. The choice is not of a means, but of people.

The basis of choosing is connected via the work of the Holy Spirit and faith (belief in the Truth) in "God's Elect One".

Um, no. The basis of choosing is God's grace. Never in the Bible is election said to be the result of belief. It simply isn't there.

Of course we have been through this multiple times before and I don't suppose you are any more willing to listen to Scripture now than you were previously. But again, I simply go back to the text of Scripture. God didn't choose a means. He chose "us."

 

[webdog]

Had to throw in the classic Larry ad hom at the and there, huh? I have read it, and I "listen to Scripture"...I just don't approach it with your presupposition. I know what it says...you were chosen "for"..."through". If I have been chosen to go to Florida by flying, I have been chosen to go there through the sky. The means of getting there is included in the entire choice.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Had to throw in the classic Larry ad hom at the and there, huh? I have read it, and I "listen to Scripture"...I just don't approach it with your presupposition.

There was no ad hominem and it's not about presuppositions. It is about what the text actually says. That's all my point is. Let the text speak for itself.

I know what it says...you were chosen "for"..."through".

Can you imagine the kind of theology you could come up with if you skip words like this?

If I have been chosen to go to Florida by flying, I have been chosen to go there through the sky. The means of getting there is included in the entire choice.

But God didn't choose a means. Again, read the sentence and see what the direct object of the verb "choose" is. It isn't a means. It is a person, or people.

Again, simply read the verse and see what it says. The means modify "salvation" not "choice."

 

[ray Marshall]

...yet God has put in the "natural man" the desire to be immortal (Ecc. 3:11), has written His law in their hearts (Rom. 2:15) and has presented the Truth to them (Rom. 1). Now, if God has equipped men with everything they need, He has not left anyone to themselves, but has taken the initiative in the lives of all men. He has essentally told man to "get up, come to me..." THIS is when some choose to obey, and others don't (Rom 1 again). Some accept the Truth, others oppress the Truth...but they both had to make a decison with the Truth which is not what your theology teaches.

And to which man are you making a plea to come to GOD? Is it the old dead natural man or is it to a man who has had a working of the spirit in him?
Dead men can't, won't walk. Try my point out at the cementare. Call for one to come forward. I bet not one will.

 

[webdog]

And to which man are you making a plea to come to GOD? Is it the old dead natural man or is it to a man who has had a working of the spirit in him?
Dead men can't, won't walk. Try my point out at the cementare. Call for one to come forward. I bet not one will.

If Christ called, they would hear. The dead analogy doesn't hold water, as we are also "dead" to sin...yet I sin. According to you, I should be a corpse to sin, unable to sin.

 

[MB]

There was no ad hominem and it's not about presuppositions. It is about what the text actually says. That's all my point is. Let the text speak for itself.

Can you imagine the kind of theology you could come up with if you skip words like this?

But God didn't choose a means. Again, read the sentence and see what the direct object of the verb "choose" is. It isn't a means. It is a person, or people.

Again, simply read the verse and see what it says. The means modify "salvation" not "choice."

The text says;
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The verse says we are chosen through sanctification. No Sanctification, no choosing. The Greek says we are chosen to Salvation in sanctification. Again no sanctification, no Choosing. The means are inescapable.
MB

 

[pinoybaptist]

The text says;
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The verse says we are chosen through sanctification. No Sanctification, no choosing. The Greek says we are chosen to Salvation in sanctification. Again no sanctification, no Choosing. The means are inescapable.
MB

Gospel salvation. Not eternal salvation.
Either Christ's blood washed away all sin and either Christ saved His people, or salvation is through additional means like sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.
Obviously, the people referred to were saved from lies and separated by the Spirit because it was God's plan for them.
Their eternal salvation, however, rested on Christ and His finished work only.

 

[MB]

Gospel salvation. Not eternal salvation.
Either Christ's blood washed away all sin and either Christ saved His people, or salvation is through additional means like sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.
Obviously, the people referred to were saved from lies and separated by the Spirit because it was God's plan for them.
Their eternal salvation, however, rested on Christ and His finished work only.

Salvation is completely of God. We are chosen in and through our sanctification. This is the means for the choosing. If we are "IN HIM" Eph 1:4 we have been sanctified and chosen. The way 2nd Thess 2:13 reads to me is the same because the choosing is in the sanctification which when sanctified we are "IN HIM"
MB

 

[OldRegular]

It seems to me that the question is: Who is sovereign in salvation, God or man?

If God is sovereign then Salvation from beginning to end is solely the work of God! As the writer of Hebrews [God] states:

Hebrews 12:1, 2
1. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

If man is sovereign then there is no God!

 

[webdog]

It seems to me that the question is: Who is sovereign in salvation, God or man?

If God is sovereign then Salvation from beginning to end is solely the work of God! As the writer of Hebrews [God] states:

Hebrews 12:1, 2
1. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

If man is sovereign then there is no God!

Who has said God isn't sovereign? If God gives man free will to accept or reject Him doen't undermine His sovereignty one bit.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The verse says we are chosen through sanctification. No Sanctification, no choosing. The Greek says we are chosen to Salvation in sanctification. Again no sanctification, no Choosing.

This is just wrong. Sorry. The Greek says: ὅτι εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ἀπαρχὴν εἰς σωτηρίαν ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος καὶ πίστει ἀληθείας.

Sanctification, in this context, is the setting apart of the Spirit to salvation. It is generally designated the effectual call. It is not post salvation spiritual growth.

But, in the verse, the setting apart/belief modifies salvation, not choosing.

Yes, the means are inescapable, but they are means to salvation, not choosing.

So the verse says, "You were chosen to salvation. Salvation comes through setting apart/belief."

 

[webdog]

There was no ad hominem and it's not about presuppositions. It is about what the text actually says. That's all my point is. Let the text speak for itself.

Telling me I don't listen to Scripture is an attack.

But God didn't choose a means. Again, read the sentence and see what the direct object of the verb "choose" is. It isn't a means. It is a person, or people.

Again, simply read the verse and see what it says. The means modify "salvation" not "choice."

The means modify the entire phrase. Leave out the prepositions, and you have plainly "God chose you". For what and how? You can't just end at "God chose you" leaving out the prepositional phrases that describe the actions of the verb and the the beneficiary of that action.

 

[webdog]

This is just wrong. Sorry. The Greek says: ὅτι εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ἀπαρχὴν εἰς σωτηρίαν ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος καὶ πίστει ἀληθείας.

Sanctification, in this context, is the setting apart of the Spirit to salvation. It is generally designated the effectual call. It is not post salvation spiritual growth.

But, in the verse, the setting apart/belief modifies salvation, not choosing.

Yes, the means are inescapable, but they are means to salvation, not choosing.

So the verse says, "You were chosen to salvation. Salvation comes through setting apart/belief."

Sanctification here is used in the context of the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation...the entire process (realization of God through nature, the desire to be immortal, and the conscience), not only the effectual call.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Telling me I don't listen to Scripture is an attack.

No it's not. It's a statement.

The means modify the entire phrase.

No, it doesn't. You are not chosen by setting apart and belief.

Leave out the prepositions, and you have plainly "God chose you". For what and how? You can't just end at "God chose you" leaving out the prepositional phrases that describe the actions of the verb and the the beneficiary of that action.

I agree. That's my point. God chose you. For what? Salvation. How does salvation come? Through setting apart and belief.

 

[ray Marshall]

...yet God has put in the "natural man" the desire to be immortal (Ecc. 3:11), has written His law in their hearts (Rom. 2:15) and has presented the Truth to them (Rom. 1). Now, if God has equipped men with everything they need, He has not left anyone to themselves, but has taken the initiative in the lives of all men. He has essentally told man to "get up, come to me..." THIS is when some choose to obey, and others don't (Rom 1 again). Some accept the Truth, others oppress the Truth...but they both had to make a decison with the Truth which is not what your theology teaches.

Make a decision, huh!
And YOU HATH HE QUICKENED. Not anything to argue about.

 

[ray Marshall]

...yet God has put in the "natural man" the desire to be immortal (Ecc. 3:11), has written His law in their hearts (Rom. 2:15) and has presented the Truth to them (Rom. 1). Now, if God has equipped men with everything they need, He has not left anyone to themselves, but has taken the initiative in the lives of all men. He has essentally told man to "get up, come to me..." THIS is when some choose to obey, and others don't (Rom 1 again). Some accept the Truth, others oppress the Truth...but they both had to make a decison with the Truth which is not what your theology teaches.

What did JESUS tell Peter before he accended into Heaven/
Peter Feed my Sheep, and a second time he said, Peter feed my Lambs, and the third time, Peter, Feed my sheep.
Don't worry about trying to bring dead man to a spitiyual nature, which can't happen anyway. Jesus will do the quickening of his Sheep, Lambs.

 

[webdog]

No it's not. It's a statement.

Statements are used to make an attack, especially false ones like you made.

No, it doesn't. You are not chosen by setting apart and belief.

Yet that is exactly what the passage says.

I agree. That's my point. God chose you. For what? Salvation. How does salvation come? Through setting apart and belief.

If we put well placed periods and question marks whenever and wherever we want to, we can make the Bible say whatever we want it to. It's one statement, not 3 as you have chopped it into.

 

[webdog]

Make a decision, huh!
And YOU HATH HE QUICKENED. Not anything to argue about.

...and the burden of proof falls on you that regeneration precedes faith.

 

[Allan]

First Pastor Larry let say that I might have misunderstood your post in my response to it. So if I did my appologies. If not well.. :smilewinkgrin:

Sanctification, in this context, is the setting apart of the Spirit to salvation. It is generally designated the effectual call. It is not post salvation spiritual growth.

Sorry Larry, but I have to disagree with some of the above as far as I understand you.

I do agree on your point that 'chosen' is refering specifically for salvation. It is emphasizing the point that it was God's purpose from before creation to save them (those whom the text speaks).
However I believe you appear to make the assuption the text is refering to how a person brought to salvation instead of it being the operation of what saves. There are two little words that can not be overlooked with dealing with theology here - 'Through' as well as 'and'.

We are chosen for salvation no question. But what come next isn't a process but the event itself which makes us saved. IOW - we were chosen to salvation which is sactification by God the Holy Spirt and faith in Truth (God) by man.

Notice if you will term 'through' or 'in' regarding salvation. The term refers back to the object (salvation) and denotes how this salvation transpires. Now we can know the text is not intending to give a particular order because of the word 'and' being implimented between sanctincation and belief. "And' means - in conjunction with; IOW - what is being expressed is not a specific order to be saved but only a reference of two specific events that together result in a singular action (salvation). Thus it isn't saying one precedes the other but that both together result in a singular action - salvation.

One can not be saved unless one is set apart unto God. - no question
One can not be saved unless one has believed. - no question.
Without both of these no one is saved for it is through both that salvation is established.

However scripture states that one is only sanctified by faith. (Acts 26:18)
Just as one is only righteous by faith (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
Just as one is only justified by faith (Rom 3:28)
Just as we only recieve the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by faith (Gal 3:14)
Thus according to scripture all those things which are considered to make up the 'regeneration' are only obtained through faith not prior to it.

So, sanctification can not be the 'effectual call' since we are sanctified by faith not prior to it.

Have you changed your view on this. I know that you previously held faith preceded regeneration (IF I remember correctly)? Or do you consider sanctification and regeneration to seperate things?