Did God change his mind?

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Rev 12-17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The scripture above (bold part) says that the Remnant keep the commandments of God, and yet Christians today say that there are no commandments that we must keep, neither old or new covenant.

My question is, who are these people in Rev. 12 that are keeping the commandments, and why does it also say,"and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"?

Selah,

Tam

Israel goes back under the "law and Prophet" system of "Leadership" during the trib. (two witnesses, Moses/Elijah)

The "Holy Ghost" (voice of Jesus) is "taken out of the way", (rapture) prior to the AC being revealed.

"Leadership" by both the "L/P" and "HG" does not function at the same time, in the same time frame.

The "L/P" stopped with Jesus, and won't continue until "HE" (HG) leaves.

On the "Sabbath", Jews wasn't allowed to "Carry" anything, Jesus referred to this when he said:

Mt 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

God uses the antichrist as a "ROD" to chastise Israel for rejecting him (Jesus) they will suffer the "STRIPES" of God's "ROD" in their "FLESH", (be tortured/killed)

but for "believers", Jesus suffer their "STRIPES" in "HIS FLESH", therefore "Believers" will "Literally"...PASSOVER...this time of Chastisement.

Ps 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

Ps 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the ROD, and their iniquity with STRIPES.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (antichrist) the ROD of mine anger, and the staff (leadership) in their hand is mine indignation.

Just as Moses/Arron ROD turned into a "serpent", when cast down to the earth, so does God's rod. (satan)

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Robert J Hutton:
I have been asked to share my thoughts concerning the link between the verse quoted at the start of this thread and 1st Cor 9 v 27; the verse from Ezekiel makes it clear that a godly person can fall away, Paul in 1st Cor 9 v 27 expresses the same concern viz. that after having preached to others he may yet fall away. How we need to be on our guard and daily seek for God's grace lest after having lived godly lives and witnessed faithfully we should be cast away at the end because of habitual sin.

Kind regards to all.

Bob

Are you saying cast into the lake of fire, or castaside for hurting the cause of Christ. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Robert J Hutton:
[QB] I have been asked to share my thoughts concerning the link between the verse quoted at the start of this thread and 1st Cor 9 v 27; the verse from Ezekiel makes it clear that a godly person can fall away, Paul in 1st Cor 9 v 27 expresses the same concern viz. that after having preached to others he may yet fall away. ]

All true

 

[BobRyan]

1 Cor 9
12 If others share the right over you, do we not more? Nevertheless, we did not use this right, but we endure all things so that we will cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ.
13 Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar?
14 So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.

Paul argues that it is right for those who work in spiritual ministry – to receive perishable – temporal good in fact “a living from the gospel”.

Having made that case – Paul then DENIES that he really wants any of those temporal benefits / rewards /

15 But I have used none of these things. And I am not writing these things so that it will be done so in my case; for it would be better for me to die than have any man make my boast an empty one.

He claims that he values his “boast” higher than getting the earthly perishable temporal benefit from the church.

Now he will switch to the “Gospel” mission the “Gospel focus” the fact that His preaching of the Gospel of Salvation is such a consuming role that earthly benefit fades. He is under a higher calling

16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel.
17 For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me.
18 What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.

This is key – Paul has just said that his “reward” is to “offer the Gospel without charge”. This is not a setup for saying “I buffet my body and make it my slave lest I CHARGE someone a penny for speaking to them about the Gospel”. His focus has not gone there at all. Rather he is still talking about his boast that he is able to preach the Gospel without reaping the due benefit/reward of earthly perishable gain. And he even counts that fact as “his reward” because it leaves him free from the sense of “owing” anyone anything..

At this point Paul jumps fully into the topic of SALVATION! He argues the point of wining the lost. He shows that his focus and goal is fully set on the salvation that is brought through the preaching of the Gospel!

Wining here is “Wining souls for Christ” in the preaching of the Gospel. Preaching the Gospel to others – resulting in their Salvation!

19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

Paul shows that the “SAVING’ them is the whole point of this Gospel preaching. He preaches the Gospel to others in order to SAVE them. He mentions nothing about those saved getting big houses in heaven nor does he mention what great honor and room-size reward he is seeking in heaven. His entire focus is not on “What perk do I get” but on the great value/reward of SALVATION itself as the goal and objective of the Gospel received when preached “to others”.

Now comes that “unpleasant section” for many where Paul points out the seriousness of this Gospel pursuit for the goal of saving people -- so that I may by all means save some. as he says.

23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified

It is as a “fellow partaker of the GOSPEL” that Paul wants to participate in preaching. He then shows that his own example in persuing that goal of being “A fellow partaker of the Gospel” is the standard/model/role-model for the saints. He has left the realm of “I am a leader and Apostle and so I have special rights” to the perspective of WE ALL want to be “Fellow partakers” of the Gospel for as he has just pointed out when the Gospel is received the people are saved. (; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.)

So now in this “fellow partaker of the Gospel” model for ALL that Paul is offering (in the form of his own life example) he shows how it works. He shows the perspective of the saint, the attitude, the focus the Olympic ALL for the Gospel focus that is NEEDED. IN fact he argues that it is critical EVEN for an Apostle for even in this most exaulted case HE is at risk “LEST after preaching the Gospel to other I MYSELF should be disqualified” from that very Gospel!

How instructive!

Yet how fervently ignored by those who find this to be an “unpleasant” section of scripture!

Take each "detail" and show the meaning IN the 1Cor 9 context itself. Let the argument speak for itself IN the text you are exegeting.

Or do you read vs 23-27 and respond with

Are you saved by self discipline of your body?

Paul says

1 Tim 4
14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Me4Him:

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
[qb]

Powerful words, agreeing with most. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Tazman:
Ezekiel 33:12

12 "Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.' 13 If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. 14 And if I say to the wicked man, 'You will surely die,' but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right- 15 if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die. 16 None of the sins he has committed will be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live."

God seems to say that if you had lived a righteous life before hand, but then repent of it and does evil, none of the righteous things done before will save him. The opposite goes for the wicked man who repents. His wickedness will not be remembered.

God seems to be consistant in character with this thinking before and after the cross.

The end of a mans life is soley dependant on the way he decides to live.

Did God Change?

Any thoughts

Is God referring to "Living/dying", "Spiritually" or "physically"??

No mention is made here of "Salvation", only of "WORKS" that a person can "perform" to "live/die".

Can "WORKS" save a man???

 

[Tazman]

Is God referring to "Living/dying", "Spiritually" or "physically"??

No mention is made here of "Salvation", only of "WORKS" that a person can "perform" to "live/die".

Can "WORKS" save a man???

Outside of everyday life and death -
Life and Death in bible has always been a salvation issue when it comes to obeying God.
Some lives were cut short because of unrepentant sin.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Robert J Hutton:
In 1st Cor 9 v 27 Paul clearly felt that there was a danger that, after having preached to others he himself would be cast away. That would concur with the passage qouted at the beginning of this thread.

Kind regards to all.

Bob

That is true.

 

[Avshalom]

Hi friends,

This is my first mesage on this forum. As I was browsing various discussion threads I have noticed that in many debates it usualy boils down to a point: OSAS. Being a relatively new believer, I just wanted to let you know that I am apalled by this doctrine because it goes so much against everything the bible teaches.

I thought it is believed mostly by American Christians, but I find it to be the pet doctrine of many also here in Austria.

To be honest, I will never understand how anybody can believe this OSAS stuff with so many ifs and warnings in the Bible addressed to believers. God never said salvation unconditional, at least not in my bible.

I am convinced that the same conditions to receive salvation, repentance towards God and faith in Christ, are also required to keep it. And true repentance involves turning from all known sin. If you think this is salvation by works or legalism you'd better revise your theology.

Just to point out one of tha many places in the bible that flatly contradict OSAS, consider the book of Revelation where Jesus himself tells us believers that unless we overcome we will never see heaven.

"He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death."

I would really like to know how an OSAS believer can interpret that. To me, this shows the conditional nature of salvation beyond any reasonable doubt. So much for unconditional security.

[ January 11, 2006, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Avshalom ]