Did God predestine ISIS & Boko Haram to rape, torture, kill the Christians?

[Eliyahu]

Oh really???

for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. (Acts 4:27-28)

Always, the Heresies and Cults are related to
1) the erroneous manuscripts, texts or wrong translations of Bible, 2) and/or wrong Bible Hermeneutics, 3) plus ignorance.
Therefore we must be careful on this issue again.
Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (YLT)
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (KJV)
TR
2:23 τοῦτον τῇ ὡρισμένῃ βουλῇ καὶ προγνώσει τοῦ θεοῦἔκδοτον λαβόντες διὰ χειρῶν ἀνόμων προσπήξαντες ἀνείλετε

Acts 4
27 for gathered together of a truth against Thy holy child Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, were both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with nations and peoples of Israel,
28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy counsel did determine before to come to pass. (YLT)
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
(KJV)
TR
27 συνήχθησαν γὰρ ἐπ᾽ ἀληθείας ἐπὶ τὸν ἅγιον παῖδά σου Ἰησοῦν ὃν ἔχρισας Ἡρῴδης τε καὶ Πόντιος Πιλᾶτος σὺν ἔθνεσιν καὶ λαοῖς Ἰσραήλ
4:28 ποιῆσαι ὅσα ἡ χείρ σου καὶ ἡ βουλή σου προώρισεν γενέσθαι



Here, what was the Will and the Counsel determined by God ?
Was it for the people to be murderous and wicked to kill Yeshuah? or
Was it to achieve the Redemption of all human race by the Sacrifice once for All?

Even after the Cross, God still knew that His people will do His work and the wicked people commit sins and eventually He will have to punish them

God never predestined the people to be wicked but forknew that people would do as He predicted in Psalm 2 :1-3 and it was going to come true as His prophecy.


Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

God didn’t predestine the people to be wicked and be the murderers, but He knew that the people would be so much wicked even to kill the Messiah.
Therefore He wanted to utilize even such wickedness and redeem them from their sins, and placed His Own Son Yeshuah there, which was the Will and the Counsel of God.
God just exposed His Son to the wickedness of human beings so that He may achieve His Will and Plan of Salvation.
Likewise, even after the Cross, God always utilize the human wills and wickedness to accomplish His Will.

God never predestine the people to be wicked, rebellious against Himself.
God wanted everyone to be holy righteous, obedient to Him.

Could you see the difference between your interpretation and mine?

Do you think your God predestined the most of the people to be rebellious against Himself and to speak Blasphemy to Himself?

My God never did so!

My God always wanted All human race to be holy, righteous, good, and to respect God and His Son.

Eliyahu

 

[Eliyahu]

If their sins have been paid for, why are they in hell? There is a double punishment - Christ died for those sins, thus paying the penalty but now the person pays again in hell? That makes no sense. If the one sin for being in hell is the rejection of the redemption, then there is sin that was not atoned for on the cross.

The problem with your question is this.
You don’t distinguish what God can do and what the Almighty God cannot do, and the Time Difference between the time of Cross and the time of rejection and unbelief until death.


God forgave all the sins of Adolf Hitler at the Cross

However, Hitler rejected that forgiveness, which is termed as Sin in John 16:9.

Even the sin of the rejection and unbelief was forgiven at the Cross.

But such forgiveness was rejected again, and even such rejection was forgiven at the Cross, but such forgiveness was rejected again repeatedly until the death of Hitler, which is beyond what Almighty God can do.

Endlessly, the Sin of Unbelief and Rejection was forgiven but rejected again and again, which resulted in the punishment of the Hell.

The endless rejection of the forgiveness until death is the rejection of the Holy Spirit ( Mt 12:31)

It doesn‘t mean that any part of the sins were not atoned, but it is the proof that all the sins were atoned at the Cross but was rejected.

The punishment in the Hell doesn’t mean that any sin was not atoned at the Cross, but it proves that all the sins were forgiven but they rejected nevertheless.

The reason why they are punished in the Hell is not because of their sins but because of their rejection and unbelief until their death ( John 16:9, Mt 12:31)

Why can’t you clearly and definitely clarify whether or not your God predestined ISIS to behead the Christians and to insult the True God?


Eliyahu

 

[robustheologian]

Always, the Heresies and Cults are related to
1) the erroneous manuscripts, texts or wrong translations of Bible, 2) and/or wrong Bible Hermeneutics, 3) plus ignorance.
Therefore we must be careful on this issue again.
Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (YLT)
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (KJV)
TR
2:23 τοῦτον τῇ ὡρισμένῃ βουλῇ καὶ προγνώσει τοῦ θεοῦἔκδοτον λαβόντες διὰ χειρῶν ἀνόμων προσπήξαντες ἀνείλετε

Acts 4
27 for gathered together of a truth against Thy holy child Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, were both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with nations and peoples of Israel,
28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy counsel did determine before to come to pass. (YLT)
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
(KJV)
TR
27 συνήχθησαν γὰρ ἐπ᾽ ἀληθείας ἐπὶ τὸν ἅγιον παῖδά σου Ἰησοῦν ὃν ἔχρισας Ἡρῴδης τε καὶ Πόντιος Πιλᾶτος σὺν ἔθνεσιν καὶ λαοῖς Ἰσραήλ
4:28 ποιῆσαι ὅσα ἡ χείρ σου καὶ ἡ βουλή σου προώρισεν γενέσθαι



Here, what was the Will and the Counsel determined by God ?
Was it for the people to be murderous and wicked to kill Yeshuah? or
Was it to achieve the Redemption of all human race by the Sacrifice once for All?

Even after the Cross, God still knew that His people will do His work and the wicked people commit sins and eventually He will have to punish them

God never predestined the people to be wicked but forknew that people would do as He predicted in Psalm 2 :1-3 and it was going to come true as His prophecy.


Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

God didn’t predestine the people to be wicked and be the murderers, but He knew that the people would be so much wicked even to kill the Messiah.
Therefore He wanted to utilize even such wickedness and redeem them from their sins, and placed His Own Son Yeshuah there, which was the Will and the Counsel of God.
God just exposed His Son to the wickedness of human beings so that He may achieve His Will and Plan of Salvation.
Likewise, even after the Cross, God always utilize the human wills and wickedness to accomplish His Will.

God never predestine the people to be wicked, rebellious against Himself.
God wanted everyone to be holy righteous, obedient to Him.

Could you see the difference between your interpretation and mine?

Do you think your God predestined the most of the people to be rebellious against Himself and to speak Blasphemy to Himself?

My God never did so!

My God always wanted All human race to be holy, righteous, good, and to respect God and His Son.

Eliyahu

This is making the text say more than it does. Acts 4 says they did what God's hand and plan predestined...simply put.

 

[annsni]

The problem with your question is this.
You don’t distinguish what God can do and what the Almighty God cannot do, and the Time Difference between the time of Cross and the time of rejection and unbelief until death.


God forgave all the sins of Adolf Hitler at the Cross. However, Hitler rejected that forgiveness, which is termed as Sin in John 16:9. Even the sin of the rejection and unbelief was forgiven at the Cross. But such forgiveness was rejected again, and even such rejection was forgiven at the Cross, but such forgiveness was rejected again repeatedly until the death of Hitler, which is beyond what Almighty God can do.

"God cannot do" and "beyond what Almighty God can do"? Wow.

 

[Darrell C]

No one has answered on this question.

Eliyahu

You are applying Predestination to something, the natural course of life, which has nothing to do with biblical Predestination. Predestination centers on salvation itself, not individual acts of men. It is God-centered, whereas your application is man-centered.


God bless.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Nope!

God never predestined them to do so!

But He foreknew that they would kill Him and utilized such murder minds and converted it into the grace to save the human race.

God foreknew all the wickedness of the people and placed Jesus in that situation to save the human race.

God didn't cause or plan or intend the wickedness of the people but used that for the grace and salvation of the people.

That was what He predestined. So the Predestination of God is quite different from that of Calvinism.


God never plotted the wickedness!




Eliyahu

Brother Eliyahu, what you are claiming about the crucifixion above is in error. It most certainly was predestinated by God. The Bible says, "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand." (Isaiah 53:10)

Also, "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34)

God predestinates everything that comes to pass, however he does so by using two different methods. The first method is God permitting evil acts by men. He does not work evil or in a man's heart. That is already there. God is not the author of sin. Rather, God permits all evil acts that are done, and uses them to work out for good. (Romans 8:28, Genesis 50:20) The proof? The most evil act of man was the crucifixion of Christ, but God used it to redeem his people. Thus, the most evil act in history also resulted in God utilizing it to show the supreme act of love that history has ever seen!

On the other hand, the other way God predestinates acts is by directly causing them. He does this for all good acts, that is why the scripture says for example, " work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12(b)-13) God directly causes all good in this world by working in his creatures.

I recommend reading the following article on the predestination of all things-
http://www.pbministries.org/Theology/Beebe,%20Gilbert/predestination.htm

 

[BrotherJoseph]

The one sin for being in Hell is the rejection of the redemption provided for them, the rejection of Christ. Jesus could do no more miracles in Capernaum because of their unbelief (for example).

Brother DHK,

You do realize you are limiting the atonement when you assert that Jesus did not die for the sin of unbelief? I do not see what scripture you are relying on to assert that God did not pay for the sin of unbelief. All who end up saved will end up believing, but God paid for all their sins, including unbelief. "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself" (2 Timothy 2:13), Paul also said, "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief (1 Timothy 1:13)

1.Will any that God loves go to hell?


2.Does God's love ever change?

Scripture doesn't say only unbelievers will go heaven, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-11). Notice these sinners are not just kept from the Kingdom of God due to being unbelievers (which they all are), but Paul names specific types of sinners/sins. None of their sins are forgiven (including unbelief) because they are not "washed" like those he mentions in verse 9 are.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

It's only $0.99 in Kindle format!!

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003G2ZVJO/?tag=baptis04-20

John Owen's The Death of Death in the Death of Christ is available for free here http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/owen_death_index.htm

I haven't read it, but so many people are recommending it I hope to!

 

[Darrell C]

Brother DHK,

You do realize you are limiting the atonement when you assert that Jesus did not die for the sin of unbelief? I do not see what scripture you are relying on to assert that God did not pay for the sin of unbelief. All who end up saved will end up believing, but God paid for all their sins, including unbelief. "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself" (2 Timothy 2:13), Paul also said, "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief (1 Timothy 1:13)

1.Will any that God loves go to hell?


2.Does God's love ever change?

Scripture doesn't say only unbelievers will go heaven, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-11). Notice these sinners are not just kept from the Kingdom of God due to being unbelievers (which they all are), but Paul names specific types of sinners/sins. None of their sins are forgiven (including unbelief) because they are not "washed" like those he mentions in verse 9 are.

I think his point, which I firmly agree with, is that those who die in unbelief will not benefit from the Work of Christ. This would be the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Who seeks to bring men to the truth.

The punishment for rejection of Christ far exceeds that of the rejection of the previous Covenant/s:


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Here we see that those rejecting the knowledge of the truth bring upon themselves judgment and worse, the indignation of God. They are called adversaries, which position they themselves chose to be in. It is one thing to be without the knowledge of the truth, another entirely to be in opposition to the Gospel of Christ.

The question is asked, "How much worse should the punishment for those who reject Christ be than that of those who rejected the Covenant of Law?"

"Doing despite unto the Spirit of Grace" is the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and it is a sin that cannot be forgiven because no forgiveness is sought, but the exact opposite...not only rejecting the truth but opposing it.


God bless.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

I think his point, which I firmly agree with, is that those who die in unbelief will not benefit from the Work of Christ. This would be the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Who seeks to bring men to the truth.

The punishment for rejection of Christ far exceeds that of the rejection of the previous Covenant/s:


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Here we see that those rejecting the knowledge of the truth bring upon themselves judgment and worse, the indignation of God. They are called adversaries, which position they themselves chose to be in. It is one thing to be without the knowledge of the truth, another entirely to be in opposition to the Gospel of Christ.

The question is asked, "How much worse should the punishment for those who reject Christ be than that of those who rejected the Covenant of Law?"

"Doing despite unto the Spirit of Grace" is the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and it is a sin that cannot be forgiven because no forgiveness is sought, but the exact opposite...not only rejecting the truth but opposing it.


God bless.

Brother Darrell,

To believe that God loves all people and died for every human being is to believe God loves those that wind up in Hell, which is utter nonsense! Or does his love change and he goes from loving them until they die in unbelief and then he no longer loves them and they go to Hell? God's love is like God Himself--it is simply eternal and unchangeable (Jeremiah 31:3; Malachi 3:6), thus this is impossible! God simply doesn't love all men ( see Romans 9:13) and Christ didn't die for all men (John 10:11). Christ died for only the elect, none for whom he died for will go to Hell!

John Owen has pointed out that there are three possibilities of the extent of the death of Christ:

1. Christ died for all the sins of all men

or

2. Christ died for all the sins of some men

or

3. Christ died for some of the sins of all men.

If #1 is true, then all men will be saved. We know this is not true.

If #3 is true, then no one will be saved.

If #2 is true (and it is), then some men will be saved. These are the "elect" spoken of in Scriptures


David said, "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." (Psalm 5:5). This scripture clearly indicates that God hates "workers of iniquity", thus he clearly did not love or die for every human being!

Lets take a look at the passage on blaspheming the Holy Spirit-
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.25 And Jesus knew their thoughts,...

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
" (Matthew
12:22-25(a) and 31).

The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is what the Pharisees did in verse 24 when they attributed the miracle work of the Spirit in Jesus to Satan! An elect child of God cannot do this.

The atonement did not just make it possible for God's elect to be saved, it actually saved them, if this is not so how can the following verses hold true, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21) It states he "shall" save, not he "might". Also, consider this scripture, " but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself" (Hebrews 9:26b) He accomplished his mission and it wasn't dependent upon the will of man!

God bless you too.

 

[Eliyahu]

Brother Eliyahu, what you are claiming about the crucifixion above is in error. It most certainly was predestinated by God. The Bible says, "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand." (Isaiah 53:10)

Nevertheless, still we can separate the Will of God and the human wickedness. God just placed His Son in the situation where He could be bruised and the Son obeyed Him. God didn't cause human beings to be so wicked to kill Christ but He foreknew it and utilized it for the salvation of human race. Otherwise, we make God be doubleminded person.

Also, "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34)

Again God placed His Son in such situation and forsaken Him awhile for the salvation of human race, which doesn't mean that God caused human beings to be wicked and to reject Him. God never predestined human beings to insult Him and to be rebellious against Himself but foreknew that they would be so wicked and He utilized such wickedness as well, as He utilized the tactics of Satan to bruise his head ( Gen 3:14)

God predestinates everything that comes to pass, however he does so by using two different methods. The first method is God permitting evil acts by men. He does not work evil or in a man's heart. That is already there. God is not the author of sin. Rather, God permits all evil acts that are done, and uses them to work out for good. (Romans 8:28, Genesis 50:20) The proof? The most evil act of man was the crucifixion of Christ, but God used it to redeem his people. Thus, the most evil act in history also resulted in God utilizing it to show the supreme act of love that history has ever seen!

Red Colored statements are what I am claiming too, and therefore I agree with you.

God is not the author of sin, and He doesn't cause the people to be wicked or to work evil. So, God didn't cause the people to do evil to kill His Son but foreknew that they would do to Him so.

God just placed His Son into such situation where He should be killed.

If God is not the author of sin and wickedness, then He cannot predestinate everything in the human history.

God didn't predestinate ISIS to behead Christians. But He foreknew them to do so, and prepared the Hell for them.

God didn't predestine the Christians to be killed by ISIS and by Boko Haram, but He foreknew about it.

If God predestinated all the wickedness of human history, then the God is not holy and Unholy deity is not the true God.

So, if God predestinated everything in human life, it means that God predestinated even the wickedness and all the crimes, and that He is unholy and wicked. He is not holy and therefore He is not God.

On the other hand, the other way God predestinates acts is by directly causing them. He does this for all good acts, that is why the scripture says for example, " work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:12(b)-13) God directly causes all good in this world by working in his creatures.

I recommend reading the following article on the predestination of all things-
http://www.pbministries.org/Theology/Beebe,%20Gilbert/predestination.htm

In the presence of my God, I am very sure the theory of Predestination is an Idolatry, worshipping the unholy God fabricated by human minds.


Eliyahu

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK,

You do realize you are limiting the atonement when you assert that Jesus did not die for the sin of unbelief? I do not see what scripture you are relying on to assert that God did not pay for the sin of unbelief. All who end up saved will end up believing, but God paid for all their sins, including unbelief. "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself" (2 Timothy 2:13), Paul also said, "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief (1 Timothy 1:13)

You are misquoting me. Jesus died for all our sins, unbelief included. Where did I say he didn't. I did say that ultimately it is the sin of unbelief that directs us to hell. Any sin will earn the penalty of hell as an unholy person cannot stand before a holy God. But the entrance to heaven is belief in Christ, and thus the rejection of Christ is the entrance to hell. Christ paid the sins of all.

1.Will any that God loves go to hell?

Yes, of course. He loved all. He has never hated anyone. That is not in the nature of God to hate. To ascribe hatred to God is to take away from his attribute of love. It is contrary to his being.

2.Does God's love ever change?

No. God's love is eternal. God himself never changes. He is immutable.

Scripture doesn't say only unbelievers will go heaven, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-11). Notice these sinners are not just kept from the Kingdom of God due to being unbelievers (which they all are), but Paul names specific types of sinners/sins. None of their sins are forgiven (including unbelief) because they are not "washed" like those he mentions in verse 9 are.

Therein lies the Calvinist's dilemma, not mine. The love of God is immutable unchangeable and reaches out to all. If a person doesn't accept it who's fault is that? Is it God's fault, or man's fault?
The Calvinist ascribes the sin to God through reprobation making God the author of evil.
The non-cal ascribes the fault with man saying he chose of his own accord to go to hell by choosing to reject Christ.
Now which seems to be more reasonable?

 

[Eliyahu]

The Calvinist ascribes the sin to God through reprobation making God the author of evil.

Good Point ! :thumbs:

Thanks for your defense of Truth and of the Holy God in overall aspects.


Eliyahu

 

[Eliyahu]

For the distinction between Author of Evil and the Exposure to the Evil, I would illustrate one story.

In around July 4, 1976, Israeli government decided to dispatch about 100 commandos to Entebbe Airport in order to rescue 106 hostages.
It was the greatest rescue operation in the modern history, but the head of the commandos, Yonathan was killed in that operation but they rescued 103 hostages.

Yonathan was the only dead among the commandos.
He was shot by Ugandan army on the ground. His younger brother is Benjamin Nethanyahu, the current PM of Israel government.


In that event, did Israeli Government caused Ugandan army to kill Yoni?
Nope!

They just exposed him to the risk and danger in order to rescue 103 hostages.

They knew there would be lots of risks in the rescue operation, but had chosen such risky way in order to save the lives of the hostages.

Yoni was bruised to death by Ugandan army. Even though Israeli government led him to death eventually, they didn't cause Ugandan army to do so.

This may be a little different from God's providence, but basically what we can learn is to distinguish between the Author of sins

and the mastermind of sinful people and the Holy God who is free from sin, knows no sin.

God never plotted the sins thru the sinful people but just used it for the salvation of the people.

Therefore God never predestined the people to commit sins and wickedness.

If He did, He is not holy and He is not God but an Idol.

Any theory claiming that God predestined all the wickedness and evil is an Idolatry.




Eliyahu

 

[BrotherJoseph]

You are misquoting me. Jesus died for all our sins, unbelief included. Where did I say he didn't. I did say that ultimately it is the sin of unbelief that directs us to hell. Any sin will earn the penalty of hell as an unholy person cannot stand before a holy God. But the entrance to heaven is belief in Christ, and thus the rejection of Christ is the entrance to hell. Christ paid the sins of all.

Brother DHK, If he "died for all our sins" as you readily state above, then that would include the sin of "unbelief", hence no one in Hell. Also if he as you stated, "paid the sins of all" there remains no more sin debt, or to put it another way the crime has been punished through Christ on Calvary. How then could God righteously and justly fined the sinner to pay for their sins in Hell and thus punish twice for the same crime. That would be double jeopardy.

Yes, of course. He loved all. He has never hated anyone. That is not in the nature of God to hate. To ascribe hatred to God is to take away from his attribute of love. It is contrary to his being.

No. God's love is eternal. God himself never changes. He is immutable.

So "he loved all" you say, but some for whom he loves, he throws in the lake of fire? What kind of love is that? How can you claim he loves all when David declares, "thou hatest all workers of iniquity." (Psalm 5:5b) and "5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth" (Psalm 11:5). Also does he love all equally? If so, how can you reconcile the fact that not all people have an equal opportunity to hear and have faith in the gospel?

Therein lies the Calvinist's dilemma, not mine. The love of God is immutable unchangeable and reaches out to all. If a person doesn't accept it who's fault is that? Is it God's fault, or man's fault?
The Calvinist ascribes the sin to God through reprobation making God the author of evil.
The non-cal ascribes the fault with man saying he chose of his own accord to go to hell by choosing to reject Christ.
Now which seems to be more reasonable?

The sinner gets what justice and holiness require, punishment for sin in Hell, how then does this make God the author of sin or unreasonable? No known theologian I have ever heard of would ever assert such a thing, if so provide me some quotes and your sources.

Enjoy your worship service tomorrow.

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Nevertheless, still we can separate the Will of God and the human wickedness. God just placed His Son in the situation where He could be bruised and the Son obeyed Him. God didn't cause human beings to be so wicked to kill Christ but He foreknew it and utilized it for the salvation of human race. Otherwise, we make God be doubleminded person.

I agree with the above statement of yours Brother Eliyahu. God uses all the wicked sinful acts of evil men for his greater good and purpose, but he does not create the wicked acts or sin in those men, that was already there. God willed to permit the sin to happen. God is the direct cause of all the good in the universe and he permits all the sin in the universe in order to accomplish his greater good divine purposes (see Romans 8:28). In this manner it can be said by Paul, "who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11) God wills/ordains all things that come to pass, but he is not the author of sin. I am not a Calvinist, but this is what the mainstream ones believe, but they are often misrepresented. God has a permissive will (such as when he allows sin to accomplish his greater good) and a direct will (when he causes believers to do a good work or blesses someone).

Again God placed His Son in such situation and forsaken Him awhile for the salvation of human race, which doesn't mean that God caused human beings to be wicked and to reject Him. God never predestined human beings to insult Him and to be rebellious against Himself but foreknew that they would be so wicked and He utilized such wickedness as well, as He utilized the tactics of Satan to bruise his head ( Gen 3:14).

I agree God did not "cause" human beings to be wicked to Christ, they did this of their own wicked will. However, we must remember God did make Christ to actually be "sin" so he could redeem us by taking on the punishment for sin. As far as stating he "predestinated the crucifixion", I have no problems using that phrase as long as one does not mean to say he actually infused the wicked intents of men into their hearts to crucify Jesus. God wanted Jesus crucified as part of his eternal plan, but this was for a Holy cause, not a sinful one, why else does it say, "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8 (b)).

Red Colored statements are what I am claiming too, and therefore I agree with you.

God is not the author of sin, and He doesn't cause the people to be wicked or to work evil. So, God didn't cause the people to do evil to kill His Son but foreknew that they would do to Him so.

God just placed His Son into such situation where He should be killed.).

Agree.

God didn't predestinate ISIS to behead Christians. But He foreknew them to do so, and prepared the Hell for them.

God didn't predestine the Christians to be killed by ISIS and by Boko Haram, but He foreknew about it.

If God predestinated all the wickedness of human history, then the God is not holy and Unholy deity is not the true God.

So, if God predestinated everything in human life, it means that God predestinated even the wickedness and all the crimes, and that He is unholy and wicked. He is not holy and therefore He is not God.).

I think the misunderstanding comes in by using the word "predestined". God predestined all his elect to go to heaven, and by this he directly causes it by infusing the sinner with his spirit and making him alive.

God also predestined all the evil acts of men, including those by ISIS, but he did not do this in the same manner that he predestined people to heaven, he did this by giving them up to their own sinful desires and permitting them to carry out their sin, but he then causes a greater good (which in most cases only he knows what that is) to come out of their wicked deeds! He is smarter than Satan and the evilness of men will ever be by doing this! This is why Joseph said in the Old Testament about his brothers wickedly betraying him, "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." (Genesis 50:20)

In the presence of my God, I am very sure the theory of Predestination is an Idolatry, worshipping the unholy God fabricated by human minds.


Eliyahu

Brother Eliyahu, it is often misunderstood, as you believed Calvinists believe God is the author of sin. When properly understood it gives the believer comfort to know God is in control of all things. I challenge you to read this brief http://www.pbministries.org/Theology/Beebe,%20Gilbert/predestination.htmarticle on predestination and share with me your thoughts on the forum, even if you disagree. It blessed me and I pray it bless you too!

 

[Darrell C]

Brother Darrell,

To believe that God loves all people and died for every human being is to believe God loves those that wind up in Hell, which is utter nonsense!

There is no denying that the "world" is all inclusive here:


John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


There is a point in time when the Elect become saved through the knowledge of the truth which is gained, not at birth, but at the moment the Holy Spirit brings them to that knowledge. Before salvation, every man and woman is natural and dead in sins...

...does God's love for them start after they are saved?

No. The truth is that they are saved in their natural condition based solely on God's love for them, despite their sin, despite their separation from Him.

That is precisely what John 3:16 teaches.

Or does his love change and he goes from loving them until they die in unbelief and then he no longer loves them and they go to Hell?

God's love is not human, conditional upon man's actions. Man is incapable of performing in a manner by which he can ingratiate himself to God.

Your position demands we reverse God's love and have Him only loving after they are saved. Which stands in direct contradiction of the God Who sent His Son that men might be saved.

We love Him because He first loved us.

Those that remain separated from God at death do not change God's love to hate. Any more than a misbehaving child turns a parent's love to hate. This demands conditional love which cannot be applied to the love of God, Christ being the example of what unconditional love is.

God's love is like God Himself--it is simply eternal and unchangeable

That is correct. So why make it something that is dependent upon the condition of man, who has no option to change his condition apart from the intervention of God?

(Jeremiah 31:3; Malachi 3:6), thus this is impossible!

Jeremiah 31

King James Version (KJV)

31 At the same time, saith the Lord, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

2 Thus saith the Lord, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.


The context reaches into the future restoration of Israel on a National basis.

If you remember, His people rejected Him when He died on the Cross:


John 1:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.



Malachi 3:6-7

King James Version (KJV)

6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?


Israel presents a great example of the love of God, unconditional in that He did not destroy Israel due to her sin. That does not preclude individual destruction, of course, however, it does not justify the premise you present. We have both judgment and mercy on the Lord's part, for truly God deals with sin. However, we have to distinguish between the Covenants, and if you read through Jeremiah 31 you will see the Love of God bestowed in Christ foretold.

And again, just as Abraham was promised, all the families of the earth would be blessed through the Seed.

In other words...the world.

God simply doesn't love all men ( see Romans 9:13)

Romans 9:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


The context is national, not individual. In view here is Edom, not the man Esau.

As with your premise of God's unchanging love in regards to Israel, this did not preclude national judgment, which is a basic principle illustrated throughout the Old Testament. This is the very reason for the New Covenant.

And the basis for the New Covenant is, again, the love of God for the world, despite man's fallen condition.

He has done that which we could not. Not for our sakes...


Ezekiel 36:22-27

King James Version (KJV)

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

and Christ didn't die for all men (John 10:11).

Of course He did. That does not mean that the Atonement is applied to all men.

If I set a bowl out in the foyer of my fellowship filled with mints, and place a sign that states "For all members and visitors," who is excluded from partaking? Doesn't mean everyone will, but it is for the entire assembly.

So too is the provision of salvation in Christ.

Christ died for only the elect,

That is like saying only the saved are saved. It is a given.

However, not all of the elect are saved. In fact, I would suggest to you that not all of the elect are even born yet, much less born again yet.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

none for whom he died for will go to Hell!

And those for whom He died, who do end up in Hell...end up there by resisting the Ministry of the Holy Spirit, the Comforter. His role is to convict and convince the natural man in regards to sin, righteousness, and judgment. We have numerous passages which attest to the conscious rejection of those that know the truth, yet obey not the Gospel.

John Owen has pointed out that there are three possibilities of the extent of the death of Christ:

1. Christ died for all the sins of all men

or

2. Christ died for all the sins of some men

or

3. Christ died for some of the sins of all men.

Let's look to the Word of God for a dogmatic statement of truth:


1 John 2:2

King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


John 1:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.



This does not mean that the sins of the world are taken away, but endorses Christ's power to remove sins.

And the blaring focal point is that He has power to take away the sins of the world, the same world Christ was sent for.

If #1 is true, then all men will be saved. We know this is not true.

1. Christ died for all the sins of all men

When stated like this we can easily deny it, yet it is irrelevant to what Scripture actually states.

We can't exclude Christ's power to remove sin from anyone. Thus the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit maintains rejection as the only sin that cannot be forgiven, specifically because remission of sins...is refused.

3. Christ died for some of the sins of all men.

If #3 is true, then no one will be saved.

Why speculate?

If #2 is true

2. Christ died for all the sins of some men

If Christ did not also die for the sins of all men, then that would create a category of sins for which the Atonement was powerless to conquer.

Christ's victory over sin was complete.


1 Corinthians 15:55-57

King James Version (KJV)

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


What sin is there that Christ did not overcome?

(and it is), then some men will be saved.

Again, this is a given.

These are the "elect" spoken of in Scriptures

Yes, a given.

David said, "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." (Psalm 5:5). This scripture clearly indicates that God hates "workers of iniquity", thus he clearly did not love or die for every human being!

Just not going to change the fact that God sent His Son to the World. The Gift of God is not withheld from anyone, but will be in fact the very source of judgment for those that reject Christ.

David was quite the worker of iniquity. Have you, my friend, committed adultery and murder?

Did God love David?

Lets take a look at the passage on blaspheming the Holy Spirit-
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.25 And Jesus knew their thoughts,...

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
" (Matthew
12:22-25(a) and 31).

The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is what the Pharisees did in verse 24 when they attributed the miracle work of the Spirit in Jesus to Satan!

The Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is rejection of Christ, which is what the Pharisees were guilty of.

It is not just a matter of ascribing satanic power to the work of Christ.

An elect child of God cannot do this.

On the contrary, I think it is evident that salvation can be seen at times to be "put off." Paul is a good example of this. The Lord makes it clear that goads were in place, and Paul certainly kicked at them.

Did you hear the Gospel and were immediately saved? Or. like me, heard the Gospel many times, and kicked also at the goads?

The atonement did not just make it possible for God's elect to be saved, it actually saved them,

Sorry, no man is born saved. All are born separated from God and in need of regeneration. While an eternal perspective maintains election, in the temporal we do not consider anyone unregenerate saved, Elect or no.

if this is not so how can the following verses hold true, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21)

Again...


John 1:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.



The context is national, and while it is true that He will indeed save His people...


Romans 11:26

King James Version (KJV)

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


...this will not be fulfilled until the Millennial Kingdom is established, promised of God to Israel.

The reason "All" Israel will be saved is that not one unbeliever will enter into that Kingdom with being regenerate. All that offends will be destroyed.

This includes Jews that are unbelievers.

It states he "shall" save, not he "might".

I agree. I look forward to that day.

Also, consider this scripture, " but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself" (Hebrews 9:26b) He accomplished his mission and it wasn't dependent upon the will of man!

And let's again look at the future, which is left out of the quote:


Hebrews 9:26-28

King James Version (KJV)

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


What that means is that when Christ returns...the issue of dying for sin has already been settled. He is not returning to address that issue, it is settled. Finished upon the Cross of Christ.

God bless you too.

Sorry for the haste, have to get ready for the service.

I would lastly reiterate the great travesty of the implication that God hated Esau the man, which is used to establish the hatred of God towards men. It is true that God is angry with sinners, and has nationally judged due to sin, but that does not detract from the purpose of Christ's coming. The root of the Cross is God's love for the world, and we do the Lord a disservice, I believe, when we deny His very statement of His love for the world. If I had to depend upon being sinless for God to love me, I have no hope. But God has reassured me through His Word that He saved me because He loved me first. He is not willing that any should perish, which correlates to His love for a world that is incapable of any existence outside of sin which one might consider reason to attain a love which is given freely and without condition.

God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are misquoting me. Jesus died for all our sins, unbelief included. Where did I say he didn't. I did say that ultimately it is the sin of unbelief that directs us to hell. Any sin will earn the penalty of hell as an unholy person cannot stand before a holy God. But the entrance to heaven is belief in Christ, and thus the rejection of Christ is the entrance to hell. Christ paid the sins of all.

Yes, of course. He loved all. He has never hated anyone. That is not in the nature of God to hate. To ascribe hatred to God is to take away from his attribute of love. It is contrary to his being.

No. God's love is eternal. God himself never changes. He is immutable.

Therein lies the Calvinist's dilemma, not mine. The love of God is immutable unchangeable and reaches out to all. If a person doesn't accept it who's fault is that? Is it God's fault, or man's fault?
The Calvinist ascribes the sin to God through reprobation making God the author of evil.
The non-cal ascribes the fault with man saying he chose of his own accord to go to hell by choosing to reject Christ.
Now which seems to be more reasonable?

ONLY Hyper Calvinys though see God as the Author of evil and sin, and we do not receive judgement and condemnation due to us having unbelief in Jesus, as we stand already sinners and conmened by being found in Adam!

And God chose to exercise his covenant love towards isreal and to those of us now saved in His church, and not all were saved, correct?

 

[Eliyahu]

I agree with the above statement of yours Brother Eliyahu. God uses all the wicked sinful acts of evil men for his greater good and purpose, but he does not create the wicked acts or sin in those men, that was already there.

Thanks you Brother Joseph for your thoughtful input on this issue.
I cannot disagree with you on this.

God willed to permit the sin to happen.

I would be a little careful in using the term <willed> in some cases like beheading Christians by ISIS.

Sometimes, some wickedness by His creatures takes place even though He abhor and dislike and didn't want to see it happens.

But in that case He just foreknew what would happen and prepared the punishment, and wait until He will judge and punish in the Hell.

In such cases God may tolerate, desert, forsake, endure certain wickedness by His Providence, not by His Predestination.
God is not responsible for the human wickedness because He never caused them.

God is the direct cause of all the good in the universe and he permits all the sin in the universe in order to accomplish his greater good divine purposes (see Romans 8:28). In this manner it can be said by Paul, "who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11) God wills/ordains all things that come to pass, but he is not the author of sin. I am not a Calvinist, but this is what the mainstream ones believe, but they are often misrepresented. God has a permissive will (such as when he allows sin to accomplish his greater good) and a direct will (when he causes believers to do a good work or blesses someone).

I agree with Blue Letters part, but I would be a little more careful in describing the situation as a < will> because God has nothing to do with any wickedness and repudiate Himself from any sins.

However, as God Himself is a person with His own character, He can intervene in the human thoughts and in their activities, there are some varieties in His involvement in the human activities like

- intervene, desert, forsake, abandon, doesn't prevent by His Providence, not by Predstination

- wills the good things, wanted all human beings to believe in Him to do good, which I would term < Original Predestination by God> which is different from Calvinists' Predestination which explain only a few % of chosen people were selected to be atoned and to believe in Him.

I agree God did not "cause" human beings to be wicked to Christ, they did this of their own wicked will. However, we must remember God did make Christ to actually be "sin" so he could redeem us by taking on the punishment for sin.

Correct!

As far as stating he "predestinated the crucifixion", I have no problems using that phrase as long as one does not mean to say he actually infused the wicked intents of men into their hearts to crucify Jesus. God wanted Jesus crucified as part of his eternal plan, but this was for a Holy cause, not a sinful one, why else does it say, "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8 (b)).

Again, I would be careful or reluctant to use the term < predestine> Because it can misrepresent God and mis-depict the whole situation.

In 7C.BC Persians invented the method of Crucifixion, and God foreknew such punishment method and that's why King David mentioned about the affliction of hands and feet in Psalm 22:16 in 11 century BC.

God just foreknew such wickedness and placed His Beloved Son in such situation. He just exposed His Son to such cruelty. He didn't predestine the wicked method of Crucifixion.
In disaspect, non-predestination believers analysis of the same situation is more precise and accurate, I think, because they split between what human beings did and what God did.

You may have stated < predestine> for the tolerance of this situation, but I would use other term like allowed by His Providence.


The rest of your statement is agreed. No problem.

Agree.
I think the misunderstanding comes in by using the word "predestined". God predestined all his elect to go to heaven, and by this he directly causes it by infusing the sinner with his spirit and making him alive.

God also predestined all the evil acts of men, including those by ISIS, but he did not do this in the same manner that he predestined people to heaven, he did this by giving them up to their own sinful desires and permitting them to carry out their sin, but he then causes a greater good (which in most cases only he knows what that is) to come out of their wicked deeds! He is smarter than Satan and the evilness of men will ever be by doing this! This is why Joseph said in the Old Testament about his brothers wickedly betraying him, "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." (Genesis 50:20)



Brother Eliyahu, it is often misunderstood, as you believed Calvinists believe God is the author of sin. When properly understood it gives the believer comfort to know God is in control of all things. I challenge you to read this brief http://www.pbministries.org/Theology/Beebe, Gilbert/predestination.htmarticle on predestination and share with me your thoughts on the forum, even if you disagree. It blessed me and I pray it bless you too!

I am afraid the concept of Elect may contradict the statement in 2 Pet 3:9 and in 2 Tim 2:4, 6. God has elected all the people to obey Him and to be saved but the most of them go astray and therefore He reacted with the Atonement and the Punishment in the Hell.

In the second Red color sentence, I would not use the term < predestine> even though you mentioned < in the different manner> because it gives the impression of God's being author of evil.

He just foreknew about it and He has no responsibility for any wickedness. He never plotted any wickedness or evil.

He gave up such wicked people so that they may do whatever they wanted since they were stubborn and rejected the commandments of God.

I checked your recommendation and noticed it says once God predestine any smallest thing, He should do it for everything, which is correct , I believe.

But as God cannot be the Author of all the Evil and cannot cause all the wickedness, I would not ascribe any wickedness to God and therefore I would not use the term < Predestine>

I understand what you are saying by pointing out < misunderstanding about Calvinism>.
But before we say < misunderstanding>, we should check if the term < predestine> is correct because it misrepresent God's holiness and goodness, and limits the Love of Jesus Christ only to the Elect, based on the ignorance about what the Almighty God cannot do.

God cannot forgive the people who reject the Forgiveness by Him.

If the theory is correct and the opponents misunderstand, that theory cannot lead to the conclusion that God punish the people whose sins were not atoned.

If the sins of the unbelievers were not atoned, God cannot punish them because they couldn't believe Him even if they wanted since God didn't forgive their sins.

The fact that Unbelievers are punished in the Hell is the strong proof that all the sins of theirs were already forgiven at the Cross but they rejected such truth, which is the most and biggest wickedness and therefore they are punished for such crime.

In such aspects, the term < Predestine > doesn't depict the human destiny and God correctly , I believe. If you choose other term like Providence, I would find more description agreeable in there.


Thank you Brother Joseph,

I am a PB, Plymouth Brethren and I wonder you may be another PB, Providence Baptist. Is it correct?

God bless you, Brother Joseph.


Eliyahu