Did God predestine ISIS & Boko Haram to rape, torture, kill the Christians?

[Eliyahu]

Brother Eliyahu,

God willed that Christ be crucified (Scripture tells us explicitly "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief" Isaiah 53:10 and "For he hath made him to be sin for us" 2 Corinthians 5:21) and accomplished this by the evil deeds of Pilate, the High Priests, Gentiles, and Elders. They had an evil intent in crucifying Christ, but God willed this for a good intent "that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Corinthians 5:21), thus it was not evil of God to do this. This is the principle known as concurrence. The men have an evil intent and God has a good intent for the same action, thus the men are sinning, but God is working good after the counsel of his will.

Jesus is said to be the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8), thus we see this slaying was predestinated before the fall of man even occurred.

Brother Joe

Brother Joseph,


This may be the key point that we have to focus on.

Many times I explained that God foreknew the human wickedness in advance and placed Jesus into that situation so that He could accomplish the Redemption.
It doesn’t mean that God made the people be wicked and kill the innocent people, but on the contrary to His Will the human beings went wrong and were in the habit of murder.
Therefore God utilized such wickedness to achieve the Redemption.
God never predestined the people to slay the innocent people but they did such things and God used such habit for His purpose.


If God predestined such wickedness for the good purpose, can we make the robbery into the banks for the fund-raising for Evangelical missionaries?
Do you agree with torturing and coercing the people to believe in Jesus for the good purpose? It will not be a sin at all, will it?


God of the Predestination Theory is the fundamenta source of all the evil and the sins, and He is the Author of Sins.



Brother Eliyahu

 

[Eliyahu]

Brother,

In your above statement you make God's will subject to man's will, this contradicts Ephesians 1:11 that states, "him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:". It says "all things", not "some things", how do you reconcile this with your belief above? It is contradictory to the verse.

Brother Joe,

God is creating the human beings as the sons of God with the free-wills, not the robots or puppets.
Eph 1:5 and 11 tells us the original Predestination by God, not of the Calvinism.

God didn't have two plans, and was caught off guard when his first plan didn't go throw! That is a weak God and is not the God of scripture. The God of scripture is described this way, "he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35)

Can you please show me from scripture that God had two plans of salvation, and show me the verses that detail his first plan that was thwarted?

Brother Joe,



Bible itself tells us the truth.
God commanded the first couple not to eat the Fruit while placing the Tree of Life.
God didn’t want them to commit sins but wanted to obey and learn from Him so that they may eat the Fruit of Tree of Life (Gen 2:9, Re 22:19)
But they departed from God. Therefore already the Plan B has been working its way thru the Redeemer as we read Gen 3:21 which tells us the blood of the innocent animal the shadow of the Redeemer.
God’s work is a continuous process in reaction to the human reactions too as He is the Living God.

I agree with what you said above and if God can use this the most wicked even in human history to accomplish the greatest act of Love in human history as scripture tells us "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13), could he not do this with lessor events such as the acts of Isis? He had the betrayal of Joseph by his brothers accomplish the saving of many people "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive" (Genesis 50:20). Even the sin of David with Bathsheba after David murdered Uriah described here "And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the Lord loved him" (2 Samuel 12:24), this caused Solomon to be born who Christ was present in his seed form and born out of the line of Solomon "And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias" (Mathew 1:6). If this hadn't happened Christ's family line would have been broken and he would have never been born. Did this excuse David's sin? Of course not! We know God later punished him!

God bless,

Brother Joe

Brother Joe,


God never predestined the people on the wicked side.
If God predestined ISIS to be wicked and to insult Himself ( the God), then He might be insane.
If God did so for the greater goodness, then can we do the same for the goodness, killing the people?
Can we nuke them right away for the eradication of Islam?
If King David didn’t kill Uriah, he could have died of another cause of death, or God could have given David another son thru another wife. Jesus could come thru another child of David.
Another child could have been called Solomon, too.
If David didn’t Uriah, he wouldn’t have lost 4 sons and the kingdom of Israel may have been securer.


Brother Eliyahu

 

[Eliyahu]

I will prove to you regarding the most important thing in life (I will not take the time to argue the lessor important things), one becoming born again, according to scripture it explicitly state is not by a man's will. "12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)


Man before becoming born again is only free to choose according to his nature he his born with, which according to scripture is totally depraved. "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not" (Romans 7:18).

Moreover, after someone becomes born again, any good they do is only because it is God working in them as Philippians 2:12-13 says, "12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Brother Joe,

We receive the eternal life from God by believing in Jesus Christ.
If we don’t believe in Him, we cannot get the Life.
We are totally depraved but can hear the Gospel and believe in Jesus as we read Acts 16:31
After we are born again by the Holy Spirit we can say
< 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.">
Before we are born again, God doesn’t work within us but He can influence us so that
we accept the Gospel.

RE 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
If He predestined the acceptance of the Gospel, He doesn’t have to knock at the door, but He can burst into the heart of the people.

RE 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

He doesn’t have to call anyone who are thirsty, but He can pour the water of Life, if He had predestined some Elect.

The human conscience that God created fell in Adam, thus it is far from God! This is clear even in Genesis, "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5). It is repeated in Jeremiah, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).

As far as you saying "God is not so different from human conscience", this contradicts what God said, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord." (Isaiah 55:8) and, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:9).

Even after the man is born again by the Holy Spirit?
So, shall we resemble Him?
If God predestined the most of the people not to believe in Him and to be wicked and to rape and torture the Christians and non-Christians for His Good Purpose, can we do the same for the good purpose?
Can we plot and instigate some people to rape and top torture and to kill the wives of Islam so that they may fear the Lord?
If God is still holy and not guilty of any sins even if He predestined the most of the people to be wicked and tricky, and some people to insult the Holy God and yet He is Holy, then can we not instigate and instruct the people to be wicked and to insult the God for the good purpose?

If God predestined ISIS to be wicked and to behead the Christians and to rape and torture Christians, can we do the same to the Islam people for the Good Purpose, and yet we wouldn’t be guilty?

Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. ( 1 Peter 1:16)
If the predestination of the most people to be wicked and sinful can still keep God to be Holy,
Can we be indemnified even if we plot to make some people be wicked and commit sins?
We can follow Him, right?



Brother Eliyahu

 

[Eliyahu]

God cannot sin, thus one can not say he is the author of it, but he can cause sin in a creature, but the creature is still responsible for sinning. Before you label me a heretic, explain this, we read in the book of 2 Samuel, "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (24:1)” Here we see that the Lord was angry with Israel again and he (the Lord) moved David against them in numbering the people. The word for “and he moved” means to “prick” or better yet to “stimulate, seduce, entice, persuade and provoke”. So we see the Lord “causing” David to say “Go, number Israel and Judah” because of his anger towards Israel. Then King David tells his captain of the host Joab to go out and number all the people. Then after it is all said and done, David is convicted or pricked in the heart for numbering the people and says unto the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly. (24:10)” David confessed to sinning greatly before the Lord. Here it was Jehovah who moved (directed his steps) David to sin in numbering the people and then we see David confessing his sin to Jehovah for numbering the people. (To me, this is a perfect invalidation to the accusation that if it is God that causes one to sin then that person can just turn around and blame their sin on God. David was moved to do this action and yet it is evident from these verses that he was convicted of that sin and confessed that sin before the Lord.) Now, I can probably guess as to what some are probably thinking: But it says in 1 Chronicles that: “And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (21:1)” Yes, you are absolutely correct and that verse is as much Scripture and truth as the verses quoted above, yet scripture is also very clear elsewhere that Satan is nothing but God’s servant, or better yet His puppet and he does what he is told to do (Job 1:8, etc.). And one cannot deny that these Scriptures in 2nd Samuel very clearly state that it was God who moved David to number Israel. The Lord also Gave Saul an evil spirit, "But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him" (1 Samuel 16:14)

Brother Joe

We must notice the first statement:
<< And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel >>

At that time the nation of Israel was already corrupted and therefore God reacted to them thru David. When God tested David, he should have said the same thing as Joab said in 1 Chron 21:3
! Chron 21:3-4
3 And Joab answered, The Lord make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?
4 Nevertheless the king's word prevailed against Joab. Wherefore Joab departed, and went throughout all Israel, and came to Jerusalem.

Why couldn’t David have such understanding as Joab? Because David was also corrupted as the many of Israel were.
When people are corrupted, God sometimes test them.
It is not because God is wicked but because the people were corrupted first.
Moreover, it is not God that instigated David but was Satan. The Satan can work only within the limit allowed by God, until the time allowed by God


Brother Eliyahu

 

[Eliyahu]

Brother Eliyahu,

What a blessing it is to know that the God who purposed and brought about all things, purposes and brings about all things for the specific good of His people — for their collective good and for their individual good. In so doing, He shows forth the riches of His grace, mercy, and glory. Yet for all things to work together for good to the people of God, God must be sure that all of the things that come to pass will truly benefit His people. To be so sure, He must see to it that every single thing that occurs in time, and outside of it, must occur in accordance with His precise, infallible purpose (this includes everything, even down to the thoughts, words, actions, and inactions of all mankind).God proves this very point in passage after passage throughout Scripture; consider the following:


•Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man [is] not in himself: [it is] not in man that walketh to direct his steps.


•Proverbs 20:24 Man’s goings [are] of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?


•Psalm 37:23 The steps of a [good] man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.


•Proverbs 16:9 A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.


•Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, [is] from the LORD.


•Proverbs 19:21 [There are] many devices in a man’s heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.


•Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart [is] in the hand of the LORD, [as] the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever he will.


•Psalm 105:25 He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal subtilly with his servants.


•Exodus 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:


•Deuteronomy 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand…


•Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.18 Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will [have mercy], and whom He will he hardeneth.

Brother Joe

Brother Joseph,


Thank you so much all the information that you brought on this issue.

I will ponder on it more in the future but have enjoyed them so far and

at the moment I can comment on them this way.


God hardens the heart of the people whom God foreknew to be wicked by abandoning them and leaving them to do whatever they want.
Yet God never predestined them to be wicked but foreknew that they would be wicked and therefore left them to be so.

God never predestined the people to be wicked but to be good and righteous.
God directs the people in the righteous and good way, but when they turn to be wicked, then He leads them to fall and stumble, which may look like leading them in the evil way but there is always the good reason for that.



Now I can ask you

1. When you are sick, do you go to the hospital?
Can you extend your lifetime if it is fixed by His predestination?
You may not die earlier than the predestined date nor later than that date.
Do you still need to go to the hospital if your life is predestined in every detail, even to the fall of one hair?

2. Luke 19:41
41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

Why did Jesus weep if the residents of Jerusalem were predestined to rebel against God?

Didn’t Jesus know that God made the people of Israel be wicked and not to believe in Jesus? It was God that made the residents of Jerusalem to be wicked for His Pleasure, right? Why did Jesus weep? Was it because He realized that His Father predestined Israel to be wicked for His Pleasure? Was Jesus unhappy with such predestination by Father?

It was God that made Israel no believe in the Gospel of Peace, wasn’t it?
Did Jesus not know that Jerusalem was predestined to be wicked by God?
Did Jesus know the list of the people who would be saved and whether Jerusalem would be corrupted? If yes, why did He weep?


3. Do you preach Gospel to the people?
What if you preach the Gospel to the people who are predestined not to believe in Him?
Isn’t it wise if you ask God first about whether the person is predestined to believe in God or not?
Is it necessary for anyone to preach the Gospel to the person who is predestined to believe in Him? Because even if nobody preaches, he or she will be saved if he or she is predestined to be saved.
If he is predestined by God, not to believe in Him, the preaching means the work against the will of God, right?
If he is predestined by God, to believe in Him, even if you don’t preach the gospel to him, he will be saved by any means.
Have you ever prayed God to inform you of the list of the people who are predestined to believe in Jesus so that you may save time?
What did He say to you?


Brother Joseph,

Thanks for your input on this issue.
I enjoyed the abundance of your resources about this issue and all the Bible verses that you brought.
You may answer with the sufficient time.


Thank you for all the answers and comments.



Brother Eliyahu

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Joseph,


Thank you so much all the information that you brought on this issue.

I will ponder on it more in the future but have enjoyed them so far and

at the moment I can comment on them this way.


God hardens the heart of the people whom God foreknew to be wicked by abandoning them and leaving them to do whatever they want.
Yet God never predestined them to be wicked but foreknew that they would be wicked and therefore left them to be so.

God never predestined the people to be wicked but to be good and righteous.
God directs the people in the righteous and good way, but when they turn to be wicked, then He leads them to fall and stumble, which may look like leading them in the evil way but there is always the good reason for that.



Now I can ask you

1. When you are sick, do you go to the hospital?
Can you extend your lifetime if it is fixed by His predestination?
You may not die earlier than the predestined date nor later than that date.
Do you still need to go to the hospital if your life is predestined in every detail, even to the fall of one hair?

2. Luke 19:41
41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

Why did Jesus weep if the residents of Jerusalem were predestined to rebel against God?

Didn’t Jesus know that God made the people of Israel be wicked and not to believe in Jesus? It was God that made the residents of Jerusalem to be wicked for His Pleasure, right? Why did Jesus weep? Was it because He realized that His Father predestined Israel to be wicked for His Pleasure? Was Jesus unhappy with such predestination by Father?

It was God that made Israel no believe in the Gospel of Peace, wasn’t it?
Did Jesus not know that Jerusalem was predestined to be wicked by God?
Did Jesus know the list of the people who would be saved and whether Jerusalem would be corrupted? If yes, why did He weep?


3. Do you preach Gospel to the people?
What if you preach the Gospel to the people who are predestined not to believe in Him?
Isn’t it wise if you ask God first about whether the person is predestined to believe in God or not?
Is it necessary for anyone to preach the Gospel to the person who is predestined to believe in Him? Because even if nobody preaches, he or she will be saved if he or she is predestined to be saved.
If he is predestined by God, not to believe in Him, the preaching means the work against the will of God, right?
If he is predestined by God, to believe in Him, even if you don’t preach the gospel to him, he will be saved by any means.
Have you ever prayed God to inform you of the list of the people who are predestined to believe in Jesus so that you may save time?
What did He say to you?


Brother Joseph,

Thanks for your input on this issue.
I enjoyed the abundance of your resources about this issue and all the Bible verses that you brought.
You may answer with the sufficient time.


Thank you for all the answers and comments.



Brother Eliyahu

Brother Eliyahu,

I feel we have exhausted this topic and are now just repeating ourselves and I do not wish to do that as it is not a good use of time. I have enjoyed this discussion. It is a good topic and thread that you started. Thank you for your thoughts. This will be my last post on this thread, thus I am basically giving you the final word! If anyone would like to read a debate on if God predestinated all things including sin, I recommend the following debate that has both sides well represented https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=3F2BD1A1ED70F51!488&app=WordPdf&authkey=!AHNLNqpXVrpHcNY

It is a good read.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Robert William]

Brother Yeshuah,

I am answering to Brother Joseph, not to the Hyper Calvinists.
I was talking about the Original Predestination by God and that didn't work since the Fall. Since the Fall, the Plan B started to work as we experience now.
Nevertheless, God still endure so that all the people should repent to the Salvation ( 2 Pet 3:9) and Yeshuah offered the Propitiation for the whole world, not only for the Believers.( 1 John 2:2)
The God of Predestination will be judged by the True God as the mastermind of all the sins and crimes of the world.
Calvinism will turn out as the Heresy and Blasphemy to the Holy God on His Judgment Seat.

Eliyahu

God creates some humans as vessels of dishonor, but because God is not the author of sin, they freely sin and dishonor themselves all the way to Hell.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[JohnDeereFan]

No one has answered on this question.

Given your snotty, childish attitude, why should we?

It's pretty clear from your posts that you're not interested in learning what Reformed theology teaches or what the Bible says, but only in condemning and bickering. So, in the spirit of Proverbs 20:3, I choose not to take the bait.

Good luck in your ignorance.

If the Calvinists cannot answer these questions, the theory of Predestination is a nonesense, I believe.

Post hoc ergo proptor hoc.

 

[Eliyahu]

If we think we have a better Belief or Idea than others, then we must behave in a better manner, I believe.

In that aspect, our Brother Joseph has done very well with the due patience and kindness, bringing all the possible bible verses.

So, I highly appreciate and praise Bro Joe in this regard.

My final word is this.

God will judge our behaviors and works eventually, and our beliefs too.

Will God be happy to hear anyone saying that God predestined the most of the people not to believe in Him and to reject Jesus Christ,

and thereby to commit many sins and to become wicked for His pleasure?

I don't think so.


God bless you all.


Eliyahu