Did God predestine ISIS & Boko Haram to rape, torture, kill the Christians?

[BrotherJoseph]

Even the first verse of the chapter 10 of Isaiah tells us that God never decreed the wickedness of human beings.


Isaiah 10
1. Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed;</SPAN>
If God had decreed all the unbelievers not to believe in Hi, not to obey Him, to do all the wickedness, to insult the Holy God, to blaspheme God, to mock Himself, then that God must be condemned by this verse.
If God programmed all the minds of the human beings, and predestined the most of the people to be wicked and to reject Jesus Christ, how can He avoid the responsibility for masterminding the sinners to do wickedness?
Whenever you try to disconnect God from the Author-ship of the sins, I notice the method and logic by Foreknowledge.
Assyrian King may have been used for chastising Israel as we read Prophet Jonah which tells us the wickedness of the people. Even though he was used by God, it doesn’t mean that he was just and not to be punished as we can read Prophet Jonah.
Adolf Hitler may have been used for condemning Jews, but it doesn’t mean that Hitler is indemnified from the sins of murders.
Did God predestine Hitler to be wicked and to kill Jews and to break out the wars? No
Had God predestined Assyrian King to be cruel and to be wicked? Nope!
Even if anyone try hard to escape God’s Author-ship of sins upholding the Predestination Theory, the effort will turn out to be in vain.
Finally let’s remember this.
God is Holy, Good, Righteous, Just, Merciful and Gracious, He hates the sins and wickedness.
God has created the people to be the sons of God, not the robots, all to be good, righteous,
All to believe in Him and obey and love Him.
However, the human beings have gone astray from the Will of God and commit the sins.
Therefore there will be the judgments and the Hell.
Eliyahu

Brother Eliyahu,

If God did not purpose that sin should be in the world, can you give an intelligent reason why He arranged His creation so it would come into the world? Is not the fact that God arranged His creation and has conducted His government in such way as to admit sin into the world evidenced that He intended that it should be in the world? It is certain He could have had it otherwise if it had been His pleasure to have done so, but in some way which He has not been pleased to explain to us He has see fit to have things as they are.

Brother Eliyahu, scripture tells us "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent (Job 26:13). But that same Bible also tells us, "In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent;..." (Isaiah 27:1). What do you make of these scriptures?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Even the first verse of the chapter 10 of Isaiah tells us that God never decreed the wickedness of human beings.


Isaiah 10
1. Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed;</SPAN>
If God had decreed all the unbelievers not to believe in Hi, not to obey Him, to do all the wickedness, to insult the Holy God, to blaspheme God, to mock Himself, then that God must be condemned by this verse.
If God programmed all the minds of the human beings, and predestined the most of the people to be wicked and to reject Jesus Christ, how can He avoid the responsibility for masterminding the sinners to do wickedness?
Whenever you try to disconnect God from the Author-ship of the sins, I notice the method and logic by Foreknowledge.
Assyrian King may have been used for chastising Israel as we read Prophet Jonah which tells us the wickedness of the people. Even though he was used by God, it doesn’t mean that he was just and not to be punished as we can read Prophet Jonah.
Adolf Hitler may have been used for condemning Jews, but it doesn’t mean that Hitler is indemnified from the sins of murders.
Did God predestine Hitler to be wicked and to kill Jews and to break out the wars? No
Had God predestined Assyrian King to be cruel and to be wicked? Nope!
Even if anyone try hard to escape God’s Author-ship of sins upholding the Predestination Theory, the effort will turn out to be in vain.
Finally let’s remember this.
God is Holy, Good, Righteous, Just, Merciful and Gracious, He hates the sins and wickedness.
God has created the people to be the sons of God, not the robots, all to be good, righteous,
All to believe in Him and obey and love Him.
However, the human beings have gone astray from the Will of God and commit the sins.
Therefore there will be the judgments and the Hell.
Eliyahu

Brother Eliyahu,

You seem horribly shocked when I say God’s purpose predestines sinful acts of men, but will affirm with complacency that God foreknew all the sinful acts of men. You do not seem to realize that the foreknowledge of all things involves the same complications when weighed in a human balance that the predestination of all things does. If God foresaw that all of these awful things you have described were going to be committed and was present and had the power to prevent them and did not do it, would not every human tribunal judging Him according to man’s judgment, convict Him of being guilty of the crime? Then why charge such fearful consequences upon the purpose of God when it would be equally just to charge the same consequences upon His foreknowledge? Again you admit that before God made man He knew perfectly that he would do all of these awful things which you are so elaborate on; can you give an intelligent reason why God made such a being as would do those things? Why did it not make Him an angel, and never allow him to be subjected to temptation? Or why, after He made man and placed him in the garden, did He not exclude the serpent and prevent the transgression and all subsequent sins?

 

[Eliyahu]

Brother Eliyahu,

Your unspoken assumption above is that God is obligated to be merciful to all sinners by predestinating to save everybody in the whole human race. If mercy is obligated it is no longer grace. The very essence of mercy and grace is that it is undeserved. God may owe people justice, but never mercy.

Brother Joseph

Brother Joseph,

Good to hear from you.

Yes, it is correct that the underlying assumption is that God is merciful to all human beings and the Original Predestination by God was to save everybody in the whole human race.

If mercy is obligated it is no longer grace. The very essence of mercy and grace is that it is undeserved. God may owe people justice, but never mercy.

Brother Joseph,
I often hear this kind of Logic from Calvinists.
Bible doesn’t classify the human choice or the human belief as the works as we read Romans ch 4:3, 4:5, 16)
Believing is not the work but the reaction from human beings expected by God.
The whole history of human race is the continuous reactions between God and men, either cooperation or conflict.
There are some things that the Almighty God cannot do.
God couldn’t make Adam and Eve not to pluck off the fruits of the knowledge of Good and Evil.
If He had done so, His creation of sons of God should have been stopped.
Mercy was offered to all human race but if it is rejected, the Wrath of God stays there as much as the sins are there.

God already answered your objection above by in reply in scripture (please read the black highlighted verses, "11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." and "18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" (Romans 9:11,13-15,18-20)

Furthermore, even if one accepts your premise that God is obligated to provide opportunity to all, then it follows that He is also obligated to give equal opportunity to all, yet experience plainly shows He has not done this. For example, the grace to hear and believe the gospel has obviously not been communicated to all men throughout history (e.g. Indians before Columbus arrived). ) Also, the scriptures teach that God's corrective chastisement is upon all He loves. But the scriptures also teach that not all are under this chastisement (Ps 93:12-13, 1Cor 11:32, Heb 12:6-8, Rev 3:19), thus he does not love everybody.

Dear Brother Joseph,
1. As for Jacob and Esau, many statements can mislead the people and therefore we have to be prudent in this matter.
A) Esau never served Jacob in his life. On the contrary, Jacob bowed down to Esau and called him Adonai, Adonii( My Lord) ( Gen 33:3-10)
Jacob bowed down to Esau 7 times and called him Adonai, and told him that he had seen Esau as if he had seen the Face of God.
B) God foresaw that Jacob is a perfect man ( Tam in Gen25:27 means Perfect in Hebrew- mistranslated by many versions)
C) What Paul mentioned in Romans 9:12 was about the nations, and Edomites would serve Israelites.
D) < 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. >
God shows His mercy to the person whom God foreknew, the person who will accept His mercy, will be obedient to Himself.
E) God foreknew that Pharaoh would not let Israel go ( Ex 3:19), therefore He deserted him and as a result he became hardened( Ex 4:21).
F) << Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?>>

God is not Grumpy, and what Paul says here is that God has a certain reason for Himself that we don’t know, which doesn’t mean that God can do anything un-righteously or grumpily.
This verse must not be misunderstood as meaning that God can do many funny things as like a grumpy boy.
But it means that God has a good reason for His operation of the universe beyond our comprehension, but He works for the Justice and Righteousness, and Holiness all the time.
It doesn’t mean that God predestined only a few % of people to believe in Him while He predestined the most of the people
not to believe in Him and to reject Messiah and thereby to commit sins and to be wicked to kill the Christians, and to insult Himself, the Almighty and Holy God.
This is a great misunderstanding by the Calvinists, as if God is like a grumpy boy.
Here again I find some problems with the Hermeneutics of Calvinists
G) God loved Jacob and hated Esau. Here the word Hate must be reviewed again.
Jacob hated Leah (Gen 29:31). Was Leah really hated by Jacob? She was less loved by Jacob than Rachel was.
God loved Esau as well! But He loved Esau less than Jacob. Why? Because He foreknew that Jacob was a perfect man ( Gen 25:27) and would love
Him while Esau would love hunting and the heathen women, disobeying Him, would neglect the importance of the Birthright.

2. The providence of God’s management for the whole universe was a matter of time sequence so easily that we can grasp and explain in a few pages.
Even before the Babel Tower, people departed from Middle East,
Some of them were Northern Asians who moved toward East ( Gen 10:30) The Eastern mountain area might be the Pamir Mountain area,
and they moved further to Mongolia, Siberia ( Shephar in Gen 11:30). At that time they may have departed from the presence of God too quick.
There must be many reasons and they could feel after Him or grope after Him. But in such cases they may be punished less ( Acts 17:30) as Jesus taught
The less punishment (Luke 12:48). God didn’t predestine the most people not to believe in Him, but they departed from Him.
In that sense, the Love of God is poured out everywhere, even to the wicked people ( Mt 5:45)
God Loves Everybody but there may be some difference among the people because He foreknew the human reactions in advance.


Eliyahu

( to be continued)

 

[Eliyahu]

Brother Eliyahu,
God did not, to use your words above, have to "program and insert unbelief and wicked minds" into unbelievers. The fall of Adam corrupted the whole human race as we were present in seed form, this is why Romans declares, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Romans 5:12)

Brother Joseph,
Before the Fall, according to the Predestination Theory, God predestined the most of the people not to believe in Him and to become wicked.
If you claim that God didn’t do so, then you are departing from the theory of Predestination.
Predestination theory is to believe that even the Fall of Adam and Eve was predestined before the Creation, for His Good Will and Pleasure.
Yes, indeed we were there in the loin of Adam when the first couple committed the Sin.

According to the meaning of the word predestination, as given in our standard dictionaries and the greek meaning of the work used in the New Testament,
it applies only to the predetermination of an act. Some things God predetermined to do, while other things he predetermined others should do.
God directly predetermined to do all acts of good on this earth and he predetermined that others would do all the acts of evil on this earth,
but he has uses these evil acts to produce a greater good- Take for example, the crucifixion of Christ, the most evil act of mankind ever-was of God's predetermined plan according to scripture.
"And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!" (Luke 22:22) Also, "26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. (Acts 4:26-28) and finally, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23). He used these acts to bruise his Son, make him Sin, thus redeeming his people so they can live with and in him for all of eternity. This is the greatest act of love this world has or ever will see.

When Predestination Theory tries to escape the burden of the Author-ship for the sins, it should get closer and more similar to the Foreknowledge.
This was the problem with the Predestination Theory.
Was the Predestination of the most of the people not to believe in Him and causing them to be wicked a greater Good?
What if God, as the Almighty God who can make 100% people to believe in Him and thereby let them live the holy life obedient to God, predestined 100% people
Believe in Him and never to commit sins at all? Wasn’t it less good?
As for Acts 4:26-28, I already explained it. God didn’t cause Pilate, High Priests, Elders, Sadducees, Scribes, to be wicked. But they were already wicked. God foreknew their wickedness.
Therefore, God wanted to utilize such wickedness for the redemption of the world.
God placed His Son into that situation so that the Son, Yeshuah might be killed resulting in the World Redemption.
God’s Counsel and Determination was not the Wickedness of Pilate, High Priests, Elders, Gentiles and Israelites, but the accomplishments of the World Redemption.
God never predestined the people of Israel and Gentiles to be wicked but was to utilize such wickedness.

The wickedness was already there in the Assyrian King's heart due to the fall of Adam (see Romans 5:12). God did not have to create unbelief, wickedness, etc in mankind. The fall of Adam did that. God predetermined that the Assyrian King would attack the Israelites, used this according to his purpose to chastise the Israelites, then punished the Assyrian King for his wicked intent when he conquered the Israelites.

Brother Joseph,

This portion is similar to my understanding not to the theory of Predestination, because
Predestination theology teaches that God predestined the Assyrian King should attack Israel even before the Fall of Adam and Eve.
Predestination theology teaches that God predestined only a small fraction of the people were chosen to believe in Him, and the rest majority were deserted no to believe in Him, resulting
In the wickedness of the people.
Yes, God has His own personality and can react with His own purposes, but not for the wicked will or to make people be wicked.





Eliyahu

 

[Eliyahu]

If I can show that he predestinated one sin, my point is gained, that God can predestinate sin, but still remain not being the author of sin. It has been shown from numerous scriptures in this post that God predestinated the crucifixion of Christ(see Luke 22:22, Acts 4:26-28, and 2:23) . Will any one deny that the crucifixion was determined by the hand and counsel of God! Peter said they had killed the Prince of peace. Was their act not embraced in predestination? Therefore the assumption that he predestinates only what be does by his own hand, is illogical, unscriptural and untrue. When the Lord by the mouth of the prophet Isaiah declared, “It pleased the Lord to bruise him,” he did not see fit to tell the people then how he would do it, but we know now that it was by the hand of wicked men. These men acted voluntarily, yet their act was predestinated.

Brother Joseph

God predestined 100% people to believe in Him and His Son, but on the contrary to His Will, human beings committed the Sin and the Sin entered this world.
The Almighty God was not creating the robots or puppets but the sons of God who have the free wills.
However, God prepared the B-Plan for that and prepared the Redeemer.
God predestined the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ by utilizing the wickedness of the human beings and place His Son into the situation where His Son could be killed.
It doesn’t mean that God made the High Priest, Elders, Pilate, Scribes to be wicked and murderous. God never willed the people to be so.
God just utilized such wickedness of human beings. If God willed and made the destinies of the human beings to be wicked and murderous even though
He could make them all to be good and righteous, just and holy, He must be accountable for such wicked premeditation.
Al-Baghdadi may be the Master-mind of the ISIS which kill thousands of the innocent people.
Is he not guilty of sins? He is much less influential to the fighters of ISIS than God of Predestination can be to the wicked people of the world.
God of Predestination theory is absolutely responsible for the sins of the world because such God of Calvinism preplanned and made the
most of the people to have the inevitable destinies of not believing the Truth and Jesus Christ and thereby to commit all the crimes,
even to insult and blaspheme the True God.
Yet, Calvinists insist that their God is not the Author of sins.
Such theory is to start from the false representation of the True God and to end with denial of the responsibility of destining the
most of the people to be wicked.
If Osama Bin Laden planned for Sept 11 Bombing and masterminded the hijackers to blow the buildings, is he not the author of the sin?
God of Calvinism did much more things for the sins of the world, and the relations and ties between the God of Predestination and the crimes
Of the world is much more stronger than Osama Bin Laden’s involvement because one hair of the hijackers couldn’t fall without the permission
of the God of Calvinism.
God of Calvinism orchestrated everything for the crimes of the Sept 11 hijackers and ISIS, Boko-Haram, Al-Shabab, Hezbollah etc.
It must be the common sense to rule such God of Predestination as the Author of the Sins if we can ask the high school students about such questions.

Brother Eliyahu,

If God did not purpose that sin should be in the world, can you give an intelligent reason why He arranged His creation so it would come into the world? Is not the fact that God arranged His creation and has conducted His government in such way as to admit sin into the world evidenced that He intended that it should be in the world? It is certain He could have had it otherwise if it had been His pleasure to have done so, but in some way which He has not been pleased to explain to us He has see fit to have things as they are.

Brother Eliyahu, scripture tells us "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent (Job 26:13). But that same Bible also tells us, "In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent;..." (Isaiah 27:1). What do you make of these scriptures?

Hi Brother Joseph,
1. As I said, there are things which even the Almighty God cannot do. Especially, in the process of Creation of many sons of God, not the toys of God,
Freedom of the human beings and of the angels are in evitable and the human beings and the angels couldn’t follow His expectation and His Will.
Therefore such drop-outs took place. Read the parable of Good Seed and Tares in Mt 13:36-40
Why couldn’t God make all the seed be the good seeds? It is an on-going process of Creation and even God couldn’t make Adam and Eve not eat
the fruits of knowledge of good and evil. It was not His pleasure that the first couple committed the sins.
It was not His Will and Pleasure to see the people be wicked. They happen to be wicked against His Will and against His Pleasure.
If the God was pleased to see the most people be wicked, such God is grumpy and must be the Author of Sins.
God created the serpents to be good in the beginning as we read in Gen 1 ch. But after the sin entered, the serpents became crooked.
What Job and Isaiah were telling about was the status after the sin entered.

2. God formed the beasts and animals before the sin entered. But they became crooked after the sin entered either thru the Satan or thru his angels.
However, when the sin problem disappear, the infants will play in the holes of the vipers (Isaiah 11:8)
and the snakes will not be harmful living in the soil ( Isaiah 65:35) God didn’t make the animals be wicked and crooked but they looked good ( Gen 1:25)
But when the sin entered either thru Satan and the angels first or thru the first couple, then the whole universe started to groan ( Romans 8:22)


Eliyahu

 

[Eliyahu]

Brother Eliyahu,

You seem horribly shocked when I say God’s purpose predestines sinful acts of men, but will affirm with complacency that God foreknew all the sinful acts of men. You do not seem to realize that the foreknowledge of all things involves the same complications when weighed in a human balance that the predestination of all things does. If God foresaw that all of these awful things you have described were going to be committed and was present and had the power to prevent them and did not do it, would not every human tribunal judging Him according to man’s judgment, convict Him of being guilty of the crime? Then why charge such fearful consequences upon the purpose of God when it would be equally just to charge the same consequences upon His foreknowledge? Again you admit that before God made man He knew perfectly that he would do all of these awful things which you are so elaborate on; can you give an intelligent reason why God made such a being as would do those things? Why did it not make Him an angel, and never allow him to be subjected to temptation? Or why, after He made man and placed him in the garden, did He not exclude the serpent and prevent the transgression and all subsequent sins?

Hi Brother Joseph,
Thank you very much for your bringing all the arguments possible against the Foreknowledge.
Again, as the most Calvinists miss, you misunderstand the attributes of God. Therefore you presumed that God had the power to prevent the Creation of the people’s unbelief and all the crimes.
However, as I emphasized many times, there are several things that even the Almighty God cannot do!
God couldn’t prevent the human beings from doing their own will and from rejecting the first commandment of God because God gave them the Free Will for behaving as the sons of God.
Restricting the human activities in detail and giving the free wills contradict each other, which Almighty God cannot do.
Neither we nor God can give the indefinite freedom to AA person and restrict him to do this and that at the same time.

You may say that the human tribunal cannot judge or charge the God of Predestination according to the human judgment.
However, the human conscience is not far from that of God since God created the human beings in His image and likeness.
God couldn’t command the human beings not to be masterminds of the sinners and the crimes while He willed and intended to create
the most of the people to be wicked and to insult Himself for His Pleasure.
None of righteous and holy human beings would will such wickedness. God is not so different from human conscience.
<< can you give an intelligent reason why God made such a being as would do those things? >>
God could not create all the seeds to be good but many of them to be tares ( Matt 13:36-40) because He was creating the sons of God
which have the free wills, not the toys or the robots. Giving the Free-Wills and Restricting the human behaviors are contradicting each other.
Shortly speaking, Almighty God could not make all human beings obey His commandments.
To His regret, many creatures of His own became wicked (Gen 6:6). Didn’t He know that before ?
He knew it before but it happened though He wished such crimes wouldn’t happen.
The key components for the answer is to understand that there are several things that the Almighty God cannot do not because of His capacity but because
some things contradict His truth and/or His attributes.
God cannot predestine each of the behaviors of the human beings while He give them enormous freedom so that they may behave as the sons of God, though
He react for every behavior of the human beings according to His own attributes and styles.
In such case the term Predestination is far from the truth while the Foreknowledge may describe the reactions and the destinies of human beings better.

Dear Brother Joseph,
For the saving of times each other, you may answer me with sufficient time, like once a week, around the weekend, or even slower than that.
I think we’d better focus on the Author-ship of Sin in case of God of Predestination.
Thank you brother Joseph as I have enjoyed reading your thoughts which included all the possible arguments from the other sides.

Eliyahu

 

[Eliyahu]

Brother Eliyahu,

Please tell me, before the world was created when God intended the events of time, did He intend the events of time should be as they are and have been or some other way? Also, in your concept of foreknowledge, did God make his plans after what he "foreknew" men would do, if so, why would he give up His freedom by in essence making the determination of Hs will subject to the will and actions of men?

I think this portion was not included in the answers above.

Foreknowledge doesn't mean that God is sleeping thru the ages without doing anythings.

God has been doing His work continuously according to His own Will, not according to the Calvinists Predestination.
His own Will and His original Predestination was to create all human beings in His likeness and in the resemblance of His Son. This work is continued even today.
God never intended to create the most of the people to be wicked but He willed and intended to create all the people to be conforming to His Son.
But the human beings failed, and therefore He is continuing to work out His Original Predestination ( 2 Pet 3:9, 1 John 2:2)

Foreknowledge doesn't exclude the involvement of God in the human history but acknowledge the continuous involvement and works by God.
But He never predestined the human beings to be wicked and to reject Him and to insult Him.


Eliyahu

 

[Yeshua1]

I think this portion was not included in the answers above.

Foreknowledge doesn't mean that God is sleeping thru the ages without doing anythings.

God has been doing His work continuously according to His own Will, not according to the Calvinists Predestination.
His own Will and His original Predestination was to create all human beings in His likeness and in the resemblance of His Son. This work is continued even today.
God never intended to create the most of the people to be wicked but He willed and intended to create all the people to be conforming to His Son.
But the human beings failed, and therefore He is continuing to work out His Original Predestination ( 2 Pet 3:9, 1 John 2:2)

Foreknowledge doesn't exclude the involvement of God in the human history but acknowledge the continuous involvement and works by God.
But He never predestined the human beings to be wicked and to reject Him and to insult Him.


Eliyahu

You are arguing against either Hyper Calvinism, or else a strong Double predestination view, but wither case, you are very wrong in your basic assumptions that God predestined that all sinners would receive Jesus and get saved, as that is the heresy of Universalism!

 

[Eliyahu]

You are arguing against either Hyper Calvinism, or else a strong Double predestination view, but wither case, you are very wrong in your basic assumptions that God predestined that all sinners would receive Jesus and get saved, as that is the heresy of Universalism!

Brother Yeshuah,

I am answering to Brother Joseph, not to the Hyper Calvinists.
I was talking about the Original Predestination by God and that didn't work since the Fall. Since the Fall, the Plan B started to work as we experience now.
Nevertheless, God still endure so that all the people should repent to the Salvation ( 2 Pet 3:9) and Yeshuah offered the Propitiation for the whole world, not only for the Believers.( 1 John 2:2)
The God of Predestination will be judged by the True God as the mastermind of all the sins and crimes of the world.
Calvinism will turn out as the Heresy and Blasphemy to the Holy God on His Judgment Seat.

Eliyahu

 

[BrotherJoseph]

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Brother Joseph,

Good to hear from you.

Yes, it is correct that the underlying assumption is that God is merciful to all human beings and the Original Predestination by God was to save everybody in the whole human race.)

Brother Eliyahu,

Thanks for your replies. The Greek word for "Predestination" means to "determine beforehand", thus if God predetermined everybody to go to Heaven, this would have happened. As far as the claim God is merciful to the whole human race, this is inconsistent with what the scriptures teach about the love of God. This inconsistency occurs at several points:

1) Though God never deals unjustly with any man, the scriptures clearly teach His grace is not extended in equal degrees to all men. For example Jesus said, "25 I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes." (Matthew 11:25). Inasmuch as grace derives from the love of God, varying degrees of grace imply varying degrees of love.

2) The scriptures teach God's corrective chastisement is upon all He loves. But the scriptures also teach not all are under this chastisement (Ps 93:12-13, 1Cor 11:32, Heb 12:6-8, Rev 3:19).

3) The scriptures teach God's love is effectual in the sense it produces change in those receiving it; however, in no case is the effect universally observed; therefore, the cause cannot be universally applied. "19 We love him, because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19). In other words the cause of someone loving is because God loved them, but we know that not all men love God, thus his love must not apply to all.

[Believing is not the work but the reaction from human beings expected by God.)

Believing according to scripture is a work. "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith..." (1 Thess 1:3), "and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power" (2 Thess 1:11), and "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (John 6:29). Because faith and believing is a work, God has to give an individual faith by imparting his Spirit into him sovereignly without any means of man (i.e. the gospel, baptism, etc). We read "faith is a fruit of the Spirit", thus in order to have faith one must first have faith. God does not give everyone his Spirit, otherwise everyone would have the fruit of faith that his Spirit produces.

[Mercy was offered to all human race but if it is rejected, the Wrath of God stays there as much as the sins are there.[/FONT][/COLOR]])

If by mercy being offered to all you mean that the gospel is an "offer", this is not found in scripture. What scripture says the gospel is an offer? It is a declaration that Jesus is God, died for the sins of his elect, and rose again for their justification. 15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Cor 15:1,3-4)

What Paul mentioned in Romans 9:12 was about the nations, and Edomites would serve Israelites.[/COLOR]]])

If Paul was only referring to nations and not individuals, why did he bother in that same chapter to answer an objection that he would be unjust? We read, "14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid" (Romans 9:14), and "19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" (Romans 9:19-20). If Paul was merely talking about nations, he wouldn't have addressed the objection he foresaw from people like you saying he is unjust. Thus by the context, it is obvious he is talking about individuals.

[God foreknew that Pharaoh would not let Israel go ( Ex 3:19), therefore He deserted him and as a result he became hardened( Ex 4:21).[/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE]]]])

Regarding Pharaoh you are incorrect, "17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." (Romans 9:17). Also, God hardened his heart. "And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said." (Exodus 7:13) and "but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go." (Exodus 4:21).

[It doesn’t mean that God predestined only a few % of people to believe in Him while He predestined the most of the people ]]]])

You stated you believe Romans 9 refers only to nations, not individuals. What is Ephesians 1:5 talking about when Paul declares, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"? This verse clearly states his predestination is unto the adoption of his children and according to HIS will, not ours. Ephesians 1:11 reiterates it is a predestination according to HIS will "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

[[God loved Jacob and hated Esau. Here the word Hate must be reviewed again.[/FONT][/COLOR]"]]]]])

The Greek word used for "hated" Esau in Romans 9:13 is "miseó" and means to detest. If you do a word study search of that word in a concordance you will see by the context of all the verses it appears in it does mean as we know it "hate". Also, scripture makes it clear God does indeed hate some people. "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." (Psalm 5:5). And, "The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth" (Psalm 11:5)

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

When Predestination Theory tries to escape the burden of the Author-ship for the sins, it should get closer and more similar to the Foreknowledge.
This was the problem with the Predestination Theory. ]

Brother Eliyahu,

Every cause must have an effect. God is the first cause of all causes. There are first and secondary causes. Secondary causes create sin, but God utilizes all sin to a greater good. God does not sin. I have already proven how he used the evilest sin ever (the betrayal crucifixion of Christ) to create the greatest good mankind has ever known (redemption in the crucifixion), thus any other lessor "evil" event you cite can also be used to create a greater good. The destruction of the wicked in Hell magnifies God's holiness and justice in punishing sin and wickedness, thus it is not evil of God to do this

“The Lord hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverb 16:4). This is proof positive that He made just such creatures as He had a use for, and He has such dominion over them that they have to do His will. Then He destroys them. He holds such power over the beasts which John saw that they can do only His will. It is His purpose that the second beast shall destroy the first beast. The first beast is called “the whore.” In speaking of the works of the second beast He said, “These shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put it in their hearts to fulfill His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled” (Rev. 17:16,17).

One explanation for sin that I have heard is that it originated in Satan. Taking that thought and theory into consideration, lets look at the book of Ezekiel and see what it has to say about him.

"Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. (Ezekiel 28:15)

I want to focus on this verse above. The first half of the verse says “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created...” The word “perfect” does not mean holy or righteous but it means “complete, without blemish and perfect”. And the verse also makes clear that whom Ezekiel is talking about was a created being and was created perfect or complete. The next thing to notice is in the second part of the verse which says, “...till iniquity was found in thee.” Here we see that “iniquity” which means “evil or wickedness” was found in him. So, think about it in this light: If something is found somewhere does that not mean then that it was there before but just wasn’t made manifest? For example, picture that my wife and I are out walking on a path and as I look down I notice and “find” a silver dollar in the dirt on the ground. Did that silver dollar “originate” at that moment in the dirt because it was found by me? Or was it there before I found it? Obviously it was there before I found it but it was just made manifest to me at that moment. So, when this verse says that “iniquity” was found in him, then it means that this “evil or wickedness” was already there but was made manifest in him at the appointed time.

What else do the Scriptures say about the devil?

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44)

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

But now wait! Don’t these verses contradict themselves? Not one bit! When we take the two verses above and the verse from Ezekiel we see that Satan was created a perfect murderer, a perfect liar and a perfect sinner. He has had nothing to do with truth from the beginning because there is no truth in him. He was a sinner from the beginning and he was created that way by God to fulfill God’s purpose.

Every event has a cause; and the use of the expression by chance,’ simply means that the cause is unknown to the speaker or writer, and not at all that there is no cause.

God placed His Son into that situation so that the Son, Yeshuah might be killed resulting in the World Redemption.
God’s Counsel and Determination was not the Wickedness of Pilate, High Priests, Elders, Gentiles and Israelites, but the accomplishments of the World Redemption.]]

God willed that Christ be crucified (Scripture tells us explicitly "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief" Isaiah 53:10 and "For he hath made him to be sin for us" 2 Corinthians 5:21) and accomplished this by the evil deeds of Pilate, the High Priests, Gentiles, and Elders. They had an evil intent in crucifying Christ, but God willed this for a good intent "that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Corinthians 5:21), thus it was not evil of God to do this. This is the principle known as concurrence. The men have an evil intent and God has a good intent for the same action, thus the men are sinning, but God is working good after the counsel of his will.

Jesus is said to be the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8), thus we see this slaying was predestinated before the fall of man even occurred.

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

God predestined 100% people to believe in Him and His Son, but on the contrary to His Will, human beings committed the Sin and the Sin entered this world.

Brother,

In your above statement you make God's will subject to man's will, this contradicts Ephesians 1:11 that states, "him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:". It says "all things", not "some things", how do you reconcile this with your belief above? It is contradictory to the verse.

[However, God prepared the B-Plan for that and prepared the Redeemer..

God didn't have two plans, and was caught off guard when his first plan didn't go throw! That is a weak God and is not the God of scripture. The God of scripture is described this way, "he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35)

Can you please show me from scripture that God had two plans of salvation, and show me the verses that detail his first plan that was thwarted?

[God predestined the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ by utilizing the wickedness of the human beings and place His Son into the situation where His Son could be killed..

I agree with what you said above and if God can use this the most wicked even in human history to accomplish the greatest act of Love in human history as scripture tells us "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13), could he not do this with lessor events such as the acts of Isis? He had the betrayal of Joseph by his brothers accomplish the saving of many people "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive" (Genesis 50:20). Even the sin of David with Bathsheba after David murdered Uriah described here "And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the Lord loved him" (2 Samuel 12:24), this caused Solomon to be born who Christ was present in his seed form and born out of the line of Solomon "And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias" (Mathew 1:6). If this hadn't happened Christ's family line would have been broken and he would have never been born. Did this excuse David's sin? Of course not! We know God later punished him!

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

However, as I emphasized many times, there are several things that even the Almighty God cannot do![/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
God couldn’t prevent the human beings from doing their own will and from rejecting the first commandment of God because God gave them the Free Will for behaving as the sons of God.
Restricting the human activities in detail and giving the free wills contradict each other, which Almighty God cannot do.
Neither we nor God can give the indefinite freedom to AA person and restrict him to do this and that at the same time.]

I will prove to you regarding the most important thing in life (I will not take the time to argue the lessor important things), one becoming born again, according to scripture it explicitly state is not by a man's will. "12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)

Man before becoming born again is only free to choose according to his nature he his born with, which according to scripture is totally depraved. "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not" (Romans 7:18).

Moreover, after someone becomes born again, any good they do is only because it is God working in them as Philippians 2:12-13 says, "12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

You may say that the human tribunal cannot judge or charge the God of Predestination according to the human judgment.
However, the human conscience is not far from that of God since God created the human beings in His image and likeness.... God is not so different from human conscience.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]]]

The human conscience that God created fell in Adam, thus it is far from God! This is clear even in Genesis, "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5). It is repeated in Jeremiah, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9).

As far as you saying "God is not so different from human conscience", this contradicts what God said, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord." (Isaiah 55:8) and, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:9).

The key components for the answer is to understand that there are several things that the Almighty God cannot do not because of His capacity but because
some things contradict His truth and/or His attributes ]]]

God cannot sin, thus one can not say he is the author of it, but he can cause sin in a creature, but the creature is still responsible for sinning. Before you label me a heretic, explain this, we read in the book of 2 Samuel, "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (24:1)” Here we see that the Lord was angry with Israel again and he (the Lord) moved David against them in numbering the people. The word for “and he moved” means to “prick” or better yet to “stimulate, seduce, entice, persuade and provoke”. So we see the Lord “causing” David to say “Go, number Israel and Judah” because of his anger towards Israel. Then King David tells his captain of the host Joab to go out and number all the people. Then after it is all said and done, David is convicted or pricked in the heart for numbering the people and says unto the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly. (24:10)” David confessed to sinning greatly before the Lord. Here it was Jehovah who moved (directed his steps) David to sin in numbering the people and then we see David confessing his sin to Jehovah for numbering the people. (To me, this is a perfect invalidation to the accusation that if it is God that causes one to sin then that person can just turn around and blame their sin on God. David was moved to do this action and yet it is evident from these verses that he was convicted of that sin and confessed that sin before the Lord.) Now, I can probably guess as to what some are probably thinking: But it says in 1 Chronicles that: “And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (21:1)” Yes, you are absolutely correct and that verse is as much Scripture and truth as the verses quoted above, yet scripture is also very clear elsewhere that Satan is nothing but God’s servant, or better yet His puppet and he does what he is told to do (Job 1:8, etc.). And one cannot deny that these Scriptures in 2nd Samuel very clearly state that it was God who moved David to number Israel. The Lord also Gave Saul an evil spirit, "But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him" (1 Samuel 16:14)

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Eliyahu,

What a blessing it is to know that the God who purposed and brought about all things, purposes and brings about all things for the specific good of His people — for their collective good and for their individual good. In so doing, He shows forth the riches of His grace, mercy, and glory. Yet for all things to work together for good to the people of God, God must be sure that all of the things that come to pass will truly benefit His people. To be so sure, He must see to it that every single thing that occurs in time, and outside of it, must occur in accordance with His precise, infallible purpose (this includes everything, even down to the thoughts, words, actions, and inactions of all mankind).God proves this very point in passage after passage throughout Scripture; consider the following:


•Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man [is] not in himself: [it is] not in man that walketh to direct his steps.


•Proverbs 20:24 Man’s goings [are] of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?


•Psalm 37:23 The steps of a [good] man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.


•Proverbs 16:9 A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.


•Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, [is] from the LORD.


•Proverbs 19:21 [There are] many devices in a man’s heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.


•Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart [is] in the hand of the LORD, [as] the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever he will.


•Psalm 105:25 He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal subtilly with his servants.


•Exodus 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:


•Deuteronomy 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand…


•Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.18 Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will [have mercy], and whom He will he hardeneth.

Brother Joe

 

[Eliyahu]

Brother,

In your above statement you make God's will subject to man's will, this contradicts Ephesians 1:11 that states, "him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:". It says "all things", not "some things", how do you reconcile this with your belief above? It is contradictory to the verse.

Brother Joseph,


I haven't read thru your posts.

Some time later I may read them all, but if not I think we should leave this matter to the judgment by God.

This statement that the Foreknowledge makes God subject to the will of human beings neglects the truth again that God creates sons of God which can exercise lots of freedom. Therefore God doesn't make Himself subject to the human beings but He does give the freedom to them as Love and Grace for His good Will.
God didn't make robots or puppets.

Were all of the sins that you committed predestined by God?
In that case the repentance mean that God shouldn't have predestined yourself to commit sins, right? Yet He is not responsible for predestining your life to commit sins, right?

Your struggle not to commit sins must have been either rebellion or resistances against God.

Your preaching Gospel to the people whom God predestined not to save must be a rebellion against God and the waste of time.

Your preaching Gospel to the people whom God predestined to save may not be necessary, because He will save them by any means even though you don't preach them.

It may be lack of trust in Him.

I don't believe such theory, Brother.

God bless.


Eliyahu

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother Joseph,


I haven't read thru your posts.

Some time later I may read them all, but if not I think we should leave this matter to the judgment by God.

This statement that the Foreknowledge makes God subject to the will of human beings neglects the truth again that God creates sons of God which can exercise lots of freedom. Therefore God doesn't make Himself subject to the human beings but He does give the freedom to them as Love and Grace for His good Will.
God didn't make robots or puppets.

Were all of the sins that you committed predestined by God?
In that case the repentance mean that God shouldn't have predestined yourself to commit sins, right? Yet He is not responsible for predestining your life to commit sins, right?

Your struggle not to commit sins must have been either rebellion or resistances against God.

Your preaching Gospel to the people whom God predestined not to save must be a rebellion against God and the waste of time.

Your preaching Gospel to the people whom God predestined to save may not be necessary, because He will save them by any means even though you don't preach them.

It may be lack of trust in Him.

I don't believe such theory, Brother.

God bless.


Eliyahu

Brother Eliyahu,

I have enjoyed our discussion and glad we kept it civil. This was a good thread you started.

God bless!

 

[Eliyahu]

Brother Eliyahu,

I have enjoyed our discussion and glad we kept it civil. This was a good thread you started.

God bless!

Brother Joseph,

I have read thru your posts.

They added some more study in more depth but include the misunderstandings a lot.

Therefore I have decided to answer you by this weekend.

Thanks.

Eliyahu

 

[Eliyahu]

Brother Eliyahu,

Thanks for your replies. The Greek word for "Predestination" means to "determine beforehand", thus if God predetermined everybody to go to Heaven, this would have happened. As far as the claim God is merciful to the whole human race, this is inconsistent with what the scriptures teach about the love of God. This inconsistency occurs at several points:

1) Though God never deals unjustly with any man, the scriptures clearly teach His grace is not extended in equal degrees to all men. For example Jesus said, "25 I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes." (Matthew 11:25). Inasmuch as grace derives from the love of God, varying degrees of grace imply varying degrees of love.

Brother Joseph,

Hope you are well in the Lord.
I am answering a little slow but hope you can continue to understand the whole sequence of the issues.
From the very beginning, Hi s grace has been equal to everyone, but foreknowing some would accept and obey His Will and Grace, it is more extended to them. He foreknew that others would not accept and obey His Grace and Will and accordingly would not extend it any further.
Mt 11: 25-28 is a good example of it. Because some people are wise in worldly wisdom and therefore God doesn’t reveal His Will and Grace to such people any more.
If they become babies again, then God will reveal His Grace abundantly again.
Anytime if anyone repent, then she or he will enjoy the more grace.
Therefore it is a continuous and dynamic reaction between God and Man, either Cooperation or Conflict.

2) The scriptures teach God's corrective chastisement is upon all He loves. But the scriptures also teach not all are under this chastisement (Ps 93:12-13, 1Cor 11:32, Heb 12:6-8, Rev 3:19).

3) The scriptures teach God's love is effectual in the sense it produces change in those receiving it; however, in no case is the effect universally observed; therefore, the cause cannot be universally applied. "19 We love him, because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19). In other words the cause of someone loving is because God loved them, but we know that not all men love God, thus his love must not apply to all.

God loved everyone as we read John 3:16. God loved the whole world.
We accepted such love.
The unbelievers didn’t accept the Love of God even though God loved them first.
God loved the unbelievers even before they were born on this earth and prepared the salvation and redemption thru Jesus. However, they are rejecting such love.
Therefore there is the reaction by God because He is a living God.
The Love of God was waiting for us even before we were born on this earth.

Believing according to scripture is a work. "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith..." (1 Thess 1:3), "and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power" (2 Thess 1:11), and "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (John 6:29). Because faith and believing is a work, God has to give an individual faith by imparting his Spirit into him sovereignly without any means of man (i.e. the gospel, baptism, etc). We read "faith is a fruit of the Spirit", thus in order to have faith one must first have faith. God does not give everyone his Spirit, otherwise everyone would have the fruit of faith that his Spirit produces.

Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly state the faith in contrast to the works.
The work of faith in 1 Thess 1:3 and 2 Thess 1:11 are the real works resulting from the faith.
For example, preaching the gospel anywhere is a work of faith. Pasturing the flocks in the chapels is another example of the works of faith. Testifying and evangelical activities are also works of faith.
Yes, John 6:29 tells us Believing is the work of God, not the work of human beings.
This is explained by Jesus because people asked how they can do the work of God ( Jn 6:28)
Jesus explains the concept of work of God
If we believe in God, it is not our work but the work of God.
At least the concept of the work may be different from that of Romans 4:5 and/or Ephesians 2:8-9 which is more classified in them.



Eliyahu


( to be continued)

 

[Eliyahu]

If by mercy being offered to all you mean that the gospel is an "offer", this is not found in scripture. What scripture says the gospel is an offer? It is a declaration that Jesus is God, died for the sins of his elect, and rose again for their justification. 15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

Jesus gave Himself for All ( 1 Tim 2:6), not for the Elect.
Whosoever will can take the water of life freely
The Water of Life is like the air for us to breathe which is so important but free.
( Re 22:17)
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Cor 15:1,3-4)

Yes, as per God foreknew. God utilized the human wickedness and placed His Son in that situation so that He might be killed and thereby accomplish the Redemption for ALL, not only for the Elect but also for the whole world ( 1 John 2:2)

If Paul was only referring to nations and not individuals, why did he bother in that same chapter to answer an objection that he would be unjust? We read, "14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid" (Romans 9:14), and "19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" (Romans 9:19-20). If Paul was merely talking about nations, he wouldn't have addressed the objection he foresaw from people like you saying he is unjust. Thus by the context, it is obvious he is talking about individuals.

Esau never served Jacob but Jacob bowed down to Esau ( Gen 33:3)
God hated Esau because he disobeyed Him and loved the heathen women.
Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
This is the quotation from Malachi 1:3 which was written 1500 years after Jacob and Esau were born and lived and died.

and "19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" (Romans 9:19-20). If Paul was merely talking about nations, he wouldn't have addressed the objection he foresaw from people like you saying he is unjust. Thus by the context, it is obvious he is talking about individuals.

This doesn’t prove that God predestined the people without foreknowing them and their disobedience.
This passage simply tells us that God has the reason to hate someone because of the reasons beyond our comprehension.

Regarding Pharaoh you are incorrect, "17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." (Romans 9:17). Also, God hardened his heart. "And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said." (Exodus 7:13) and "but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go." (Exodus 4:21).

Yes, God utilized the wicked people by foreknowing them and their wickedness as He did utilized the Pilate, High Priest, Judas Iscariot to accomplish the Redemption at the Cross.
God foreknew that Pharaoh would not let Israel go as per Ex 3:19.

You stated you believe Romans 9 refers only to nations, not individuals. What is Ephesians 1:5 talking about when Paul declares, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"? This verse clearly states his predestination is unto the adoption of his children and according to HIS will, not ours. Ephesians 1:11 reiterates it is a predestination according to HIS will "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

Ephesians 1:5and 11 tell us the Original Predestination by God which means that God wanted to save All, God loved all the people of the world. God even wanted the first couple Adam and Eve would not fall.
Whosoever accept the Truth and believe in Him can enjoy such predestination by God, which is different from the Predestination theory of Calvinism.

The Greek word used for "hated" Esau in Romans 9:13 is "miseó" and means to detest. If you do a word study search of that word in a concordance you will see by the context of all the verses it appears in it does mean as we know it "hate". Also, scripture makes it clear God does indeed hate some people. "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." (Psalm 5:5). And, "The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth" (Psalm 11:5)

Brother Joe

I have read thru the whole TR several times and have been reading Hebrew Masorah for over 10 years.
Jacob hated Leah but had the children from her ( Gen 29:31) Jacob loved Leah less than Rachel.
God didn’t want Esau to hate the truth and to love the heathen women but He loved Esau and wanted Esau to be saved. But on the contrary to His will, Esau went astray. God didn’t predestine Esau to be wicked, but he chose the wicked way on the contrary to His Wish.


Eliyahu

( to be continued)

 

[Eliyahu]

Brother Eliyahu,

Every cause must have an effect. God is the first cause of all causes. There are first and secondary causes. Secondary causes create sin, but God utilizes all sin to a greater good. God does not sin. I have already proven how he used the evilest sin ever (the betrayal crucifixion of Christ) to create the greatest good mankind has ever known (redemption in the crucifixion), thus any other lessor "evil" event you cite can also be used to create a greater good. The destruction of the wicked in Hell magnifies God's holiness and justice in punishing sin and wickedness, thus it is not evil of God to do this

Brother Joseph,


God didn’t create the sins. But it happened by the creatures. Then He utilized it to resolve the problems.
If such creation of the sins for the greater purpose of goodness, can man steal the money for the good purpose of evangelizing the people?
Can we kill the people for the good purpose of God?
Can we torture the people so that more people may believe in God?
Do you believe the Coercion is right biblically?
This is why I find it interesting that RCC and Islam withhold the theory that God does many killings for the good pleasure of God.

If God didn’t predestine all the wicked people to commit the sins, there would have been no need for the Cross and for the Redemption.
It sounds like that God caused the diseases and He gave the medication.
If He didn’t cause the diseases then there would have been no need for medication.
Predestining most of the people to be wicked means a great sin because such God is the source of the sins.
Why couldn’t Almighty God predestine 100% of the people to be good and to obey Himself from the beginning so that there would have been no need for the salvation?
For His Pleasure? It sounds like grumpy and like Allah in Quran.

“The Lord hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverb 16:4). This is proof positive that He made just such creatures as He had a use for, and He has such dominion over them that they have to do His will. Then He destroys them. He holds such power over the beasts which John saw that they can do only His will. It is His purpose that the second beast shall destroy the first beast. The first beast is called “the whore.” In speaking of the works of the second beast He said, “These shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put it in their hearts to fulfill His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled” (Rev. 17:16,17).


One explanation for sin that I have heard is that it originated in Satan. Taking that thought and theory into consideration, lets look at the book of Ezekiel and see what it has to say about him.

"Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. (Ezekiel 28:15)


I want to focus on this verse above. The first half of the verse says “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created...” The word “perfect” does not mean holy or righteous but it means “complete, without blemish and perfect”. And the verse also makes clear that whom Ezekiel is talking about was a created being and was created perfect or complete. The next thing to notice is in the second part of the verse which says, “...till iniquity was found in thee.” Here we see that “iniquity” which means “evil or wickedness” was found in him. So, think about it in this light: If something is found somewhere does that not mean then that it was there before but just wasn’t made manifest? For example, picture that my wife and I are out walking on a path and as I look down I notice and “find” a silver dollar in the dirt on the ground. Did that silver dollar “originate” at that moment in the dirt because it was found by me? Or was it there before I found it? Obviously it was there before I found it but it was just made manifest to me at that moment. So, when this verse says that “iniquity” was found in him, then it means that this “evil or wickedness” was already there but was made manifest in him at the appointed time.

Brother Joseph,

Matsa in Ezekiel 28:15 can mean <find, meet, encounter>
Devil was created to be tamim, perfect. But afterwards He departed from God and therefore God found the inequity from him. As long as Adam and Eve were with God, they were OK but when the sin entered, there was a distance and therefore He had to call him, where art thou?. Likewise God created the Satan to be perfect expecting him to be obedient but he went astray.
As for Rev 17:15-17, it is a secondary stage after they all betrayed God. Therefore God utilize them and commit them the power so that the wicked people may follow her and the beast. God didn’t create the devil to be wicked but made him be perfect, but the devil departed from God. RE 17 doesn’t tell us that God created any creatures to be wicked but tells us that once they become wicked, God utilize even their wickedness.

Proverb 16:4 means that the wicked are abandoned for the day of evil.

What else do the Scriptures say about the devil?

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44)

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

But now wait! Don’t these verses contradict themselves? Not one bit! When we take the two verses above and the verse from Ezekiel we see that Satan was created a perfect murderer, a perfect liar and a perfect sinner. He has had nothing to do with truth from the beginning because there is no truth in him. He was a sinner from the beginning and he was created that way by God to fulfill God’s purpose.

Every event has a cause; and the use of the expression by chance,’ simply means that the cause is unknown to the speaker or writer, and not at all that there is no cause.

God willed that Christ be crucified (Scripture tells us explicitly "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief" Isaiah 53:10 and "For he hath made him to be sin for us" 2 Corinthians 5:21) and accomplished this by the evil deeds of Pilate, the High Priests, Gentiles, and Elders. They had an evil intent in crucifying Christ, but God willed this for a good intent "that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Corinthians 5:21), thus it was not evil of God to do this. This is the principle known as concurrence. The men have an evil intent and God has a good intent for the same action, thus the men are sinning, but God is working good after the counsel of his will.

Jesus is said to be the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8), thus we see this slaying was predestinated before the fall of man even occurred.

Brother Joe

From the beginning may have several meanings.
i.e. John 1:1 is earlier than Genesis 1:1.
Likewise, 1 John 3:8 doesn’t mean that God created the Satan to be wicked from the beginning. If God created the Satan as the wicked and sinful being from the beginning, the Satan couldn’t be Tamim ( Eze 28:15) Jacob was Tamim ( Gen 25:27) Noah was Tamim ( Gen 6:9).
So we can believe that God created the Satan to be perfect in the beginning. However, soon the Satan became arrogant and tried to do something for himself though God created him to work in harmony with Him.
This happened even before the creation of the human world.
Thereafter Gen 1:1 took place.
Therefore Jesus and John could say that Satan was the liar from the beginning, sometime after the Creation of him by God.


Brother Eliyahu


( To be continued)