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Did Jesus Go to Hell after He Died?
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The Bible only mentions one place for Paradise.
In 2 Cor 12 it is the Third Heaven.
In Rev 2 and Rev 22 it is the place where the Throne of God is.
That is your only "Bible choice".
This is one of those cases where there are only 3 texts that talk about it in all of scripture and only two of them state where it is.
It just does not get any easier than that - when it comes to Bible topics.
And yet - man-made-tradition in popular pulpits picks "some place else".
That should be a red flag.
in Christ,
Bob
He is one of the characters in The Wizard of Oz.
Lol
(I tried just putting "Lol", but this post needs to be at least 10 characters).
These verses don't support the Soul Extinction which is far different from Soul Sleep. Απολλυμι can mean the tormentation.
The tormentation is confirmed by the fact that the Beast and the False prophet thrown into the Lake of Fire ( Rev 19:20) are still there after one thousand years in verse 20:10. Notice there will be one thousand years gap between Re 19:20 and 20:10, but 2 guys are still there tormenting in the Lake of Fire!
Therefore Apollumi must be interpretted as the tormentation though it has the meaning of the alsolute removal to nought.
I notice you claim by other post the Good Friday and Sunday Resurrection.
How does SDA compromise such with Mt 12:40 which says 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth?
From Friday afternoon thru Sunday early morning is only 36 hours or so.
In fact SDA loves the theology of RCC quite a lot.
SDA believes Good Friday, Sunday Resurrection, celebrates Christmas, Easter, having clergy system like RCC, then they have the love affair with Vatican as well, bowing down to Allah, like the following photos and video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uqf3ibbhuc
www.Sdaapostasy.org/sdabow2allah.htm
I don't want to hijack the thread any further but this should be considered.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Paul speaks of soul "sleep" in 1Thess 4 "those who have fallen asleep" are those who Christ "brings with Him" at the 2nd coming. It refers to those who have died the first death. As Christ said "Our friend Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake HIM" John 11.
And as you point out - this is not the same as the utter "destruction of BOTH body AND soul" that we see in Matt 10:28 regarding that which takes place in fiery hell - the lake of fire as John calls it in Rev 20.
There are symbols and images in Rev such as the "Beast and the false prophet" that endure in the lake of fire - but the people of Rev 20 do not. For example Rev 20 says that the wicked "people" are "consumed" by the fire that comes from God.
At no point in all of scripture are the "Beast and false prophet" referenced as "two guys".
I think we both know that almost every Christian denomination accepts the Bible fact of the Friday (preparation day as the Gospels call it "And THE Sabbath was drawing on" ) crucifixion, and the Bible statements on week-day-one ( "Now early on the first day of the week") resurrection - AND also the fact that the 3 days and nights are inclusive - as the Jews used inclusive reckoning for time. That includes the Baptists on this Baptist board - why do you respond as if you are posting on an SDA board when speaking of Bible doctrines fully accepted by Baptists?
Your methods are a bit odd in that regard.
Your are on a Baptist discussion board not an SDA board. Did you think that acceptance of the Bible statements on Christ's crucifixion on Friday and week-day-one resurrection was not something that the Baptists held to?
I find that odd.
I know of no - SDA doctrine saying that we are to bow down to Allah.
in Christ,
Bob
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You ignore where Jesus said "TODAY", He Himself was going to, was, "Paradise".
You turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the TRUTH Jesus spoke that very selfsame day, that He was going to the "Kingdom of my Father".
O, that's just what GE the joke is saying; not Jesus Christ.
And you deny >>the place where the Throne of God is<< was right within 'Paradise' "When God RAISED CHRIST FROM THE DEAD ... BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER ... AND SET / SEATED / ENTHRONED Him AT THE RIGHT HAND of God IN HEAVENLY MAJESTY" right in the most holy place of the "ARK" of the Sanctuary of God : ERECTED BY THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST FROM THE DEAD IN THE GRAVE IN THE EARTH.
This truth too Bob Ryan and SDAs will say is how GE 'twists the Scriptures' no matter they say so literally.
... because they cannot see God's THRONE in PARADISE in the Realm of the DEAD RESTORED TO ITS FULL AND FORMER GLORY IN CHRIST BY AND IN AND THROUGH THAT HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD AGAIN.
O no! for Adventists, Jesus' Resurrection is "no more than a half-way station before He ascended into heaven" where the Father first had to have the whole video replayed for Him of how the Son did on earth; whether He scored good enough and could start the real job of atonement for sins.
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Whatever terms are attached to the Beast and the False Prophet in Rev 19:20, they are still there in REv 20:10 which is 1000 years later than Re 19:20
Good Friday and Sunday Resurrection is held by the people who do not know the difference between the High Sabbath (Passover Sabbath) and the Weekly Sabbath which is Saturday. Jesus died just before High Sabbath, then His resurrection was revealed to the women and to disciples on the first day of the week. We don't know the exact time of His Resurrection, but His resurrection was known on Sunday. The only verse which can support Sunday Resurrection is Mark 16:9. but it can be more plausibly translated as, <Being resurrected, very early morning on the firstday of the week, He was shown to Mary Magdalene, from whom....>
SDA people flatter in the presence of Pope, they bow down to Allah as I shown on the abov post, saying that RCC is the defender of the Truth, and that RCC made great contribution on the human civilization.
Jesus proclaimed the Truth to the spirits in the prison as we read 1 Peter 3:19, which doesn't mean that He went into the prison. He can reach any where in the universe.
Jesus went to the Paradise as soon as He died, then, He wouldn't have been to Hell unless Paradise and Hell are the same place.
Jesus did not go to >the third heaven< when He died, did He?
Since when do SDAs teach that?
Who says?
No one ever before the nineteenth century has.
Revelation is composed of a Chiasm—that is, a compartmental structure each compartment dealing on a theme its own, and placed in rhythmic juxtaposition for effect or emphasis consecutively or not consecutively.
The last judgment is not mentioned only once in Revelation, but several times. Every time another aspect of it is of the essence.
Therefore there is NO >>1000 years … in REv 20:10 … later than Re 19:20<<; it is you vainly trying to force it in between. As I said, nobody ever tried to do that, before very recently.
That is RIGHT, Eliyahu, >He wouldn't have been to Hell unless Paradise and Hell are the same place.<!
Jesus went to the Paradise as soon as He said, "MY HOUR IS COME ... AND IS NOW"!
Then, did Jesus' "first day they KILLED the Lamb" and "REMOVED" the leaven of his Life on, BEGIN!
HERE: Mark 14:112,17 Matthew 26:17,20 Luke 22:7,14 John 13:1,30 17:1 et al.
Read Jonas 2:2-9 right HERE!
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Hey Gerhard. While I agree with you that Paradise and hell aren't the same place, I disagree with you on your point that there won't be a thousand years between Rev. 19:20 and Rev. 20:10, and that this belief only came about very recently.
Iranaeus said that after the antichrist is cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20), the kingdom will be inaugurated.
But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that “many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” (Mat_8:11)
- Bold emphasis mine,
Against Heresies, Book 5, Chap. XXX, 4.
Against Heresies, Book 5, Chap. XXX, 4.
Iranaeus also placed the first resurrection of Revelation 20 with the inauguration of the Kingdom:
That the whole creation shall, according to God’s will, obtain a vast increase, that it may bring forth and sustain fruits such [as we have mentioned], Isaiah declares: “And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every prominent hill, water running everywhere in that day, when many shall perish, when walls shall fall. And the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, seven times that of the day, when He shall heal the anguish of His people, and do away with the pain of His stroke.” (Isa_30:25, Isa_30:26) Now “the pain of the stroke” means that inflicted at the beginning upon disobedient man in Adam, that is, death; which [stroke] the Lord will heal when He raises us from the dead, and restores the inheritance of the fathers, as Isaiah again says: “And thou shall be confident in the Lord, and He will cause thee to pass over the whole earth, and feed thee with the inheritance of Jacob thy father.” (Isa_58:14)...John also says the very same in the Apocalypse: “Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.” (Rev_20:6)
- Bold emphases mine,
Against Heresies, Book 5, Chap. XXXIV, 2.
Against Heresies, Book 5, Chap. XXXIV, 2.
Iranaeus was 2nd-3rd century.
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GE, Read Rev 20:6-7.
There is a gap of 1000 years between Rev 19:20 and 20:10.
2 guys ( The Beast and False Prophet) were thrown into the Lake of Fire ( 19:20), there they have been tormented and will continue to be tormented in the Lake of Fire( Re 20:10).
This proves that the Lake of Fire is not the place where Souls will be extinct, but the place where Souls continue to exist and are to be tormented.
Jesus didn't suffer in the Hell at all, what 1 Peter 3:19 declares is that Jesus proclaimed the Good News Truth even toward the Hell. Jesus could do it without suffering in the Hell!
It was good enough for Jesus to suffer at the Cross, and therefore No more suffering is needed for Jesus.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The Bible only mentions one place for Paradise.
In 2 Cor 12 it is the Third Heaven.
In Rev 2 and Rev 22 it is the place where the Throne of God is.
That is your only "Bible choice".
This is one of those cases where there are only 3 texts that talk about it in all of scripture and only two of them state where it is.
It just does not get any easier than that - when it comes to Bible topics.
And yet - man-made-tradition in popular pulpits picks "some place else".
That should be a red flag.
Jesus did not claim to go to Paradise the day He died. And the Bible ONLY locates Paradise in the third heaven (2Cor 12) - at the place where the Throne of God is (Rev 2, Rev 22).
He insists in John 20 that He had NOT been to the Father in all that time.
He was right as it turns out.
in Christ,
Bob
In 2 Cor 12 it is the Third Heaven.
In Rev 2 and Rev 22 it is the place where the Throne of God is.
That is your only "Bible choice".
This is one of those cases where there are only 3 texts that talk about it in all of scripture and only two of them state where it is.
It just does not get any easier than that - when it comes to Bible topics.
And yet - man-made-tradition in popular pulpits picks "some place else".
That should be a red flag.
Jesus did not claim to go to Paradise the day He died. And the Bible ONLY locates Paradise in the third heaven (2Cor 12) - at the place where the Throne of God is (Rev 2, Rev 22).
He insists in John 20 that He had NOT been to the Father in all that time.
He was right as it turns out.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
FRIDAY:
Luke 23
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
SUNDAY:
John 20
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Jesus did not say he was going to paradise that same day - nor did the Thief die when Christ died - for he had to be taken down and his legs broken.
Paradise is where the throne of God is - according to Rev 2 and Rev 22.
Paul says in 2Cor 12:4 that it is in the "third heaven".
We can make stuff up about it being in hades no matter what the Bible says to the contrary - but that is not a safe path for doctrine.
There are no commas in Greek.
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
The request itself - sets the future context for the event.
41 Truly I say to you today - you WILL be with Me in Paradise.
Jesus said that this was the hour for the power of darkness - and yet in that hour He claims to still have the right to give eternal life and to save the lost. His response to the thief on the cross makes note of the fact that on the very day where He cries out "My God My God why have you forsaken Me" - he STILL has the power to save.
It may seem like an obvious point - but I think it bears repeating.
in Christ,
Bob
Luke 23
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
SUNDAY:
John 20
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Jesus did not say he was going to paradise that same day - nor did the Thief die when Christ died - for he had to be taken down and his legs broken.
Paradise is where the throne of God is - according to Rev 2 and Rev 22.
Paul says in 2Cor 12:4 that it is in the "third heaven".
We can make stuff up about it being in hades no matter what the Bible says to the contrary - but that is not a safe path for doctrine.
There are no commas in Greek.
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
The request itself - sets the future context for the event.
41 Truly I say to you today - you WILL be with Me in Paradise.
Jesus said that this was the hour for the power of darkness - and yet in that hour He claims to still have the right to give eternal life and to save the lost. His response to the thief on the cross makes note of the fact that on the very day where He cries out "My God My God why have you forsaken Me" - he STILL has the power to save.
It may seem like an obvious point - but I think it bears repeating.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Sheol is the grave.
Hades is the NT Greek equivalent.
Acts 2 puts both Christ and David in Sheol as the Hades (grave) of the NT.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
FRIDAY:
Luke 23
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
SUNDAY:
John 20
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Jesus did not say he was going to paradise that same day - nor did the Thief die when Christ died - for he had to be taken down and his legs broken.
Paradise is where the throne of God is - according to Rev 2 and Rev 22.
Paul says in 2Cor 12:4 that it is in the "third heaven".
We can make stuff up about it being in hades no matter what the Bible says to the contrary - but that is not a safe path for doctrine.
2Cor 12 and Rev 2, Rev 22 point out that Paradise is in the third heaven - where the throne of God is.
The "burden of proof" for those who "need yet another place" for Paradise to be - is on those who suggest it.
If they suggest it is below the Lava on earth, or in Calcutta or wherever - they need Bible texts for such suggestions.
And the Bible only provides two texts stating where Paradise is - and they do not mention anything but the third heaven, and the throne of God.
it just does not get any easier than that.
in Christ,
Bob
Luke 23
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
SUNDAY:
John 20
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Jesus did not say he was going to paradise that same day - nor did the Thief die when Christ died - for he had to be taken down and his legs broken.
Paradise is where the throne of God is - according to Rev 2 and Rev 22.
Paul says in 2Cor 12:4 that it is in the "third heaven".
We can make stuff up about it being in hades no matter what the Bible says to the contrary - but that is not a safe path for doctrine.
2Cor 12 and Rev 2, Rev 22 point out that Paradise is in the third heaven - where the throne of God is.
The "burden of proof" for those who "need yet another place" for Paradise to be - is on those who suggest it.
If they suggest it is below the Lava on earth, or in Calcutta or wherever - they need Bible texts for such suggestions.
And the Bible only provides two texts stating where Paradise is - and they do not mention anything but the third heaven, and the throne of God.
it just does not get any easier than that.
in Christ,
Bob
What's your point?
Elephants can't fly.
It seems like an obvious point - but I think I should play the sophist and speak about elephants now.
The spaghetti monster does not exist, yet you believe ( as I do ) God exists. So, to claim elephants can't fly and God does exists does not seem very rational to me. We should keep the same open mind we do with God, on all things.
This is better, " As far as we know thus far, Elephants are unable to fly, however, that is not to say that there are no flying elephants but the evidence thus far shows elephants do not fly. :thumbs: