Featured Did Jesus Go to Hell after He Died?

Part of that story above is certainly true. In Luke 16 the context is that the Pharisees are grumbling against a long string of parables Christ has been telling. Jesus makes note of this - and THEN he tells a parable that is perfectly suited to the Pharisees in the crowd.

In this parable - Abraham is sovereign over all the saints. All saints go to rest in Abraham's bosom - prayers to the dead - prayers TO the sovereign Abraham are the only recourse of the wicked. And Abraham alone decides whether someone among the dead may be resurrected or not. (Notice that the option of the dead going to their friends in ghost form is not entertained. Only via the resurrection may one communicate with the living from the dead).

This as your author points out above - is right up the alley of the Pharisee.

And Christ ends the parable with the "lesson" which is "IF they do not listen to Moses NEITHER will they listen though one rises from the DEAD".

A point about to be illustrated in the life of Christ - who will indeed "rise from the dead" and yet the Jews will reject him as they reject the teaching of Moses and all the scriptures that "speak of Me" said Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The greek contains no punctuation - no comma al all.

So I leave it out and the meaning becomes clear.

=============================


FRIDAY:
Luke 23
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise"




I emphasize vs 42 because there we see the request is for an event in the future when both of them would be alive.

In vs 43 Jesus is making the point that although this is a low point for him - when all the world is against Him AND he has "become sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in him" and he is currently undergoing the wrath of God against sin - ... on that low of a day - He STILL retains the power as Savior to offer salvation "to the least of these".




SUNDAY:
John 20
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Jesus did not say he was going to paradise that same day - nor did the Thief die when Christ died - for he had to be taken down and his legs broken.



in Christ,

Bob

 

The texts indicate that Paradise was not the destination on Friday for either of them - for as the Bible says - Paradise is in the 3rd heaven and Christ said he had not been there in John 20 - at the resurrection.

Jesus died when he gave up the ghost

The thief did not die at that point.

Thus the thief points to the future "WHEN you come into your kingdom" .

And Christ confirms even after this that He had not yet ascended to the Father where Paradise is. So while both of them go to the grave "hades" as Acts 2 points out of Christ - and of David - neither of them go to Paradise that day.

=========================

The idea of scooting paradise all over the cosmos is not justified in the Bible - because the Bible only states that Paradise is in the 3rd heaven. No Bible text at all says that Paradies is in Hades or ever was.


FRIDAY:
Luke 23
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise"

SUNDAY:
John 20
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Jesus did not say he was going to paradise that same day - nor did the Thief die when Christ died - for he had to be taken down and his legs broken.

Paradise is where the throne of God is - according to Rev 2 and Rev 22.

Paul says in 2Cor 12:4 that it is in the "third heaven".

We can make stuff up about it being in hades no matter what the Bible says to the contrary - but that is not a safe path for doctrine.

 

1. Where does any account of it call it a parable? NOWHERE

2. Where in those stories which are called parables by Christ can you find historical persons named as in this story? NOWHERE

3. Where in those stories which are called parables by Christ can you find the main persons identified by name (Lazerus)? NOWHERE

However, let us grant you your fairy tale interpretation. Parables are ALWAYS based upon factual things well known to the listeners used to convey truths.

1. This conveys consciousness after death of the body

2. This conveys conscious bliss for righteous after death of body

3. This conveys conscious torment for ungodly after death of body

4. This conveys only wicked souls go to "hades" for punishment

5. This conveys no second chances after death

6. This conveys no praying to the dead by the living


There are far more CONSERVATIVE scholars that regard it as it is - a factual account than there is that deny it. Nearly all LIBERAL scholars deny it.

 

First, Sleep is not unconsciousnes but is one of the most active times for the brain.

Second, He is bring them with him to be reunited with their bodies which are RESTING in the graves..

The Bible teaches no such thing! Those that Christ bring with him are very much active in heaven. Moses and Elijah were not dormant as revealed on the mount of Transfigeration. The saints in heaven in Revelation 19:1-5 are not dormant in heaven but rejoicing. The saints shown to be in heaven in throughout the book of Revelation are not dormant.

They are not destroyed in hell but continue to exist forever (Rev. 14:10-12; 19:20;20:10).

The only thing destroyed in the fires of Sodom were their bodies, as physical matter cannot destroy the soul - Mt. 10:28. Their bodies were "rendered useless" for soul expression.

 

(Bold emphasis mine; forgot to put that).

 

In verse 42 the thief asks that Jesus will remember him THERE AND THEN right where he and Jesus hang on the cross. His request is for that very event in the Present when both of them would DIE.

In vs 43 Jesus is making the point that although this is a low point for both of them - when all the world is against them, HE, has "become sin for us that we – and you, my murderer fellow crucified –, might become the righteousness of God in…" ME. Because for Jesus, ‘undergoing the wrath of God against sin’ as against his Chosen One “... on that low of a day” - He VERILY “TRIUMPHED” “IN THE KINGDOM OF MY FATHER”. Because THAT was where Jesus THEN, was, on the battlefield of Paradise CONQUERING, wresting from the devil’s hold “the keys of death and LIFE”. “The true and faithful Witness” told the murderer of HIM his Saviour, no word of a lie. “TODAY you hear His Voice” IS the “day of salvation”; not >in future<, but “in three days I will build THIS Temple again” “Today” is “the first day they must KILL THE PASSOVER” … “the THIRD day I FINISH”.

PS
It was not a >Friday<, “The Fore-Sabbath”; it was “The Preparation OF THE PASSOVER” and “BEFORE the Feast” of “Bone-day”—it was the day BEFORE “The Fore-Sabbath” BEFORE “it had become evening-The-Preparation”.

 

Do you know what a straw man is?

 

If I wrote "sldhfa;sjhdfakl;jhd",

You would have no clue what I mean.

Words mean something. There is meaning attached to words. Sheol and Hades happened to mean the place where the spirits/souls of men went to after death. There is another word used for the place where the body went, as I have already shown in my posts.

 

You haven't answered my question.

 

That doesn't answer my question.

Why would Jesus say "today" He told the truth, as you are advocating?

This would imply that Jesus didn't tell the truth other days...

Do you believe that Jesus lied other days and it was only on the cross that He told the truth?

 

...And I'm still awaiting a reply to that post from advocates of the belief that the body goes to Sheol.

Question for you, Ann:

Would you spend your time talking to someone who doesn't listen to you?

 

I was stating that I forgot to put the phrase "bold emphasis mine" in my post. It should be done when an emphasis is put on a citation that isn't found in the original work.

While we're on that topic though:

How do we know what the Greek word "εὐτραπελία" means?

This word is found in the (Greek) Bible. I'm guessing you don't know Greek...How would we have come to know what this word means in order to translate the word into our English language?

 

The New Testament writers, who wrote in Greek, used the words "Hades" and "Tartarus" (Acts 2:27; Rev. 6:8; 2Pet. 2:4).

"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in [Hades], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 2:27, KJV).

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and [Hades] followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth" (Rev. 6:8, KJV).

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" (2Pet. 2:4, KJV).​

They didn't choose these words without thought. They wanted to convey the meaning of what they were writing through these words.

There was a place in Greek literature where the good went, which is called the "Elysian fields". The Elysian fields was located in Hades.

cf. http://www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Elysion.html

There is also the place called "tartarus", where the wicked went. Tartarus is in and/or below Hades.

“So shall I behold neither Furiae [Erinyes, furies] nor dire Tartarus, but be admitted, a blessed soul, to Elysian regions.”

Statius, Silvae 5. 1. 192 ff. (trans. Mozley)​

"the soul, which is invisible, in passing to the place of the true Hades, which like her is invisible, and pure, and noble, and on her way to the good and wise God".

- Socrates (bold emphasis mine).

Plato, Phaedo, 80-81 (trans. Jowett)​

The soul which is impure and has done wrong, by committing wicked murders or other deeds akin to those . . . is carried by necessity to its fitting habitation [i.e. the prison of Tartaros]. But the soul that has passed through life in purity and righteousness, finds gods for companions and guides, and goes to dwell in its proper dwelling [i.e. the Elysian fields].

- Socrates

Plato, Phaedo 107c (trans. Fowler)​

Tartessos [a river near Gadeira in Southern Iberia] was known by hearsay as `fathermost in the west,’ where, as the poet [Homeros] himself says, falls into Okeanos `the sun’s bright light drawing black night over earth, the grain-giver.’ Now, that night is a thing of evil omen and associated with Haides, is obvious; also that Haides is associated with Tartaros. Accordingly, one might reasonably suppose that Homeros, because he heard about Tartessos, named the farthermost of the nether-regions Tartaros after Tartessis, with a slight alteration of letters; and that he also added a mythical element, thus conserving the creative quality of poetry.

Strabo, Geography 3. 2. 12 (trans. Jones)​

Now when the dead have come to the place where each is led by his genius (daimon) [i.e. Plato's equivalent of Hermes, Guide of the Dead], first they are judged and sentenced [i.e. by the Judges of the Dead], as they have lived well and piously, or not. And those who are found to have lived neither well nor ill, go to the Akheron and, embarking upon vessels provided for them [i.e. the equivalent of Kharon's skiff], arrive in them at the lake; there they dwell and are purified [i.e. by the equivalent of the Erinyes], and if they have done any wrong they are absolved by paying the penalty for their wrong doings, and for their good deeds they receive rewards [i.e. in Elysion], each according to his merits. But those who appear to be incurable, on account of the greatness of their wrongdoings, because they have committed many great deeds of sacrilege, or wicked and abominable murders, or any other such crimes, are cast by their fitting destiny into Tartaros, whence they never emerge. Those, however, who are curable, but are found to have committed great sin--who have, for example, in a moment of passion done some act of violence against father or mother and have lived in repentance the rest of their lives, or who have slain some other person under similar conditions--these must needs be thrown into Tartaros, and when they have been there a year the wave casts them out, the homicides by way of Kokytos, those who have outraged their parents by way of Pyriphlegethon. And when they have been brought by the current to the Akherousian lake, they shout and cry out, calling to those whom they have slain or outraged, begging and beseeching them to be gracious and to let them come out into the lake; and if they prevail they come out and cease from their ills, but if not, they are borne away again to Tartaros and thence back into the rivers, and this goes on until they prevail upon those whom they have wronged; for this is the penalty imposed upon them by the judges.

Plato, Phaedo, 113d ff. (trans. Fowler)​

In Hades, in Greek literature, one could suffer torment. The following is describing a vision in Hades. It describes people suffering torment:

And I saw Tityos, son of glorious Gaia, lying on the ground. Over nine roods he stretched, and two vultures sat, one on either side, and tore his liver, plunging their beaks into his bowels, nor could he beat them off with his hands. For he had offered violence to Leto, the glorious wife of Zeus, as she went toward Pytho through Panopeus with its lovely lawns.
Aye, and I saw Tantalos in violent torment, standing in a pool, and the water came nigh unto his chin. He seemed as one athirst, but could not take and drink; for as often as that old man stooped down, eager to drink, so often would the water be swallowed up and vanish away, and at his feet the black earth would appear, for some god made all dry. And trees, high and leafy, let stream their fruits above his head, pears, and pomegranates, and apple trees with their bright fruit, and sweet figs, and luxuriant olives. But as often as that old man would reach out toward these, to clutch them with his hands, the wind would toss them to the shadowy clouds.

Homer, Odyssey Book 11. 576. (trans. Murray)​

This last quote by virgil I would like to emphasize:

"`Approach the nether halls of Dis [Haides], and through the depths of Avernus seek, my son, a meeting with me. For impious Tartarus, with its gloomy shades, holds me not, but I dwell in Elysium amid the sweet assemblies of the blest.'"

Virgil, Aeneid 5. 731 ff (trans. Fairclough)​

First, this was written first century BC. This is very close to the time that Jesus began his ministry in.

Second, this quote shows that this man's son met with him in Hades.

Third, this quote shows that this man didn't dwell in Tartarus, but in paradise (i.e., the Elysian fields). He was in Hades, and dwelt in paradise (showing the belief in literature that paradise was in Hades).

 

Also, the passage of Samuel and the witch at endor shows that the body is separate from the spirit and/or soul of man at death, and that the spirit and/or soul goes to a different place that the body goes to. Samuel's body was at Ramah (1Sam. 25:1). Samuel's soul and/or spirit was in Endor (1Sam. 28:7-19).

Seeing as Sheol was the destiny for Samuel (Eccles. 9:10), and his body was in Ramah (1Sam. 25:1), that must mean that it was Sheol that Samuel's spirit and/or soul was dwelling, from which place the witch brought Samuel up out of.

 

Jesus said that he had not ascended to His father in John 20. He doesn't say that He hadn't been to paradise in John 20.

 

I wonder where our other charismatic went.

 

He is one of the characters in The Wizard of Oz.