BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Rev 2 - Paradise is where the Tree of Life is.
And Rev 22 tells us that the Tree of Life is where the Throne of God is.
There is no text in all of scripture that says "Paradise is in Hades".
in Christ,
Bob
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Did Jesus Go to Hell after He Died?
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Rev 2 - Paradise is where the Tree of Life is.
And Rev 22 tells us that the Tree of Life is where the Throne of God is.
There is no text in all of scripture that says "Paradise is in Hades".
in Christ,
Bob
:thumbs: "like"
See Amos 2:4. You've carried the notion that the English Bible has preeminence over the Hebrew and Greek Bible.
Don't the Hebrew and Greek Bible have preeminence over the English Bible? Which came first?
If the KJV translates Hades as "grave", the KJV is wrong in this part of its translation. I don't know which Bible you use, but I know that the ESV translates Sheol as Sheol and Hades as Hades.
You still haven't given a cogent answer for the Jacob-Joseph problem. Will anyone ever do this?
Till then, I'll believe that Sheol/Hades and the grave are separate places, and that 1 Corinthians 15:55 is actually speaking of Hades and not the grave (as the Greek Bible says).
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Hey Bob,
If Christ was in Hades (Acts 2:25, 27) that same day that He said that He would be with that thief in paradise (Luke 23:43), that would mean that paradise was in Hades.
If paradise is now in the third heaven, that must mean that there was a movement of paradise.
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This is how I understand it! Paradise was moved!
The Bible speaks of the "lowest" sheol in contrast to the "mouth" or upper sheol. Sheol is the realm of THE DEAD. The dead bodies (saved and lost) are laid in upper sheol or its "mouth" whereas the dead spirits (lost) go to the lowest sheol. The upper sheol is the realm of dead bodies - the grave. The lowest sheol is the realm of dead spirits - hell.
David believed at death he would "fly away" or "received into glory" whereas his body went down into sheol - the mouth of sheol were the bones of the dead are found.
In Acts 2 Peter is quotng Psalm 16 where parallelism is being used. He is referring to the body of Christ that it would not be left in the grave or upper sheol.
I Corinthians 15:55-57 clearly refers to upper sheol - the grave.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1Cor 15 does not mention "upper or lower" sheol or "upper or lower hades" - but I suppose one could make it up - and if eisegesis is not that much of a problem for you -- well then....
Acts 2 does not mention "upper or lower" sheol or hades
Solomon states that the spirit of all mankind goes to God at death and the body of all mankind returns to dust (rather than sleep) at death.
in Christ,
Bob
Context is your problem. 1 Cor. 15:51-57 is all about THE BODY in the resurrection overcome the grave. Acts 2 is about HIS BODY in the grave or what does not see "CORRUPTION" in the grave.
The Old Testament is where the word "sheol" is found as the New Testament is "hades" and so you must go to the Old Testament to find "lowest sheol" versus the "mouth" of sheol and both Acts 2 and 1 Cor. 15 are quoting OLD TESTAMENT where the word "sheol" is found.
I don't have to "make it up" because the Scriptures explicitly states it:
De 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell,[sheol] and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Ps 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Ps 141:7 Our bones are scattered at the grave’s [sheol] mouth, as when one cutteth and cleaveth wood upon the earth.
Well...the problem I have with that is, that we have Lazarus speaking in Luke 16. If Lazarus was in "upper sheol" which, according to you, is "the grave", that would mean that the person who walks by a graveyard should be able to hear dead bodies speak.
The problem I have with that is, that Jacob believed that he would meet his son in Sheol (Gen. 37:35). If Joseph was torn in pieces, he wouldn't have had a grave (Gen. 37:33). So Sheol cannot mean the grave.
I think that there might be "levels" in Sheol, so that if there is the "lowest Sheol", that would be the lowest Sheol.
We know that there is a chasm fixed, or at least that there was a chasm fixed in Sheol (Luke 16:26), separating the elect from the non-elect:
"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us’" (Luke 16:26, ESV).
35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.
I understand your point. However, sheol is the realm of death. It seems as his family is trying to comfort him in the death of his son and he is refusing to be comforted but says I will morn until I am put into the grave, as there is no mourning for the saint after death. However, your interpretation would indicated there is conscious mourning in sheol for the saint. Sheol was the realm of death and his son's body was dead whether it was under ground, above ground, in the sea or cremated or in the belly of animals. Its grave would not necessarily have to be earth, wood, sea, or etc.
So Jacob believed he and Joseph were going to hell?
Yes, it could totally mean the grave. Joseph still had a body, did he not?
But was Lazarus in Sheol? Can you show me the verse that he was?
Hey Ann,
Luke 16:23 and Ecclesiastes 9:10:
"and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side" (Luke 16:23, ESV, bold emphasis mine).
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going" (Eccles. 9:10, ESV, bold emphasis mine).
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going" (Eccles. 9:10, ESV, bold emphasis mine).
Ecclesiastes 9:10 tells us that Sheol was a common destiny to all men (before our dispensation was opened up that is). In our dispensation, when saints die, they skip Sheol/Hades (2Cor. 5:8).
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If a body is torn in pieces (Gen. 37:33), that body can't be put into a grave. I don't think that Jacob was intent on finding his son's body who (in his mind) would have been digested by beasts either (not meaning to sound rude or unpolished by the way).
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Not necessarily. It would depend on how you read the verse. As you have pointed out in your post, it could mean that he was going to mourn until he got to Sheol (which, according to you, can mean "the grave", and according to me, means a place separate from the grave).
If that was the case, that Jacob would mourn in Sheol, it wouldn't be implausible, for we find that in Hades/Sheol, the rich man was mourning (Luke 16:24).
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So what would be your take on Isaiah 14:9-10?
(In all kindness and refinement): Do you believe that dead bodies can speak, or that, cremated bodies can speak?
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In Jeremiah 26:23, why doesn't it say that the body went into Sheol?
It uses a different Hebrew word ("qeber"), rather than Sheol, for the place that the body went.
"they took Uriah from Egypt and brought him to King Jehoiakim, who struck him down with the sword and dumped his dead body into the burial place [Hebrew "qeber"] of the common people" (Jeremiah 26:23, ESV).
It uses a different Hebrew word ("qeber"), rather than Sheol, for the place that the body went.