Did Jesus have a sin nature?

[The Archangel]

The sin nature, as we know it, is a result of "original sin." The RCC believes that this "sin nature" is washed away through baptism (thus infant baptism). However our sin nature is simply our fallen nature that we inherited from Adam, that every man has. From it comes the works of the flesh that Paul spoke of; the defilement of the heart that Jesus spoke of.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)

For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, covetings, wickednesses, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, railing, pride, foolishness: all these evil things proceed from within, and defile the man. (Mark 7:21-23)

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm in complete agreement with you. I don't know, though, why you seem to be disagreeing with me. Must I make further clarification? Am I not being as clear as I think I am?

Again, using "sin nature" as I was, I was referring to the Augustinian concept that Christ bore our sins (in a penal substitution kind of way). And, again..., perhaps "sin nature" was not the best way to express my thoughts on the subjects. Clearly what you (and others) understood me to mean is not what I meant.

The Archangel

 

[psalms109:31]

I understand what you are saying but how is this being tempted as we? If we seperate spirit and flesh we are doing the same thing as the gnostics.

I am not separated nothing they are one if the flesh sins the whole being is defiled. He was never tempted to sin or even thought of sin, but was tempted with things that we are tempted with, but defeated the desire of the flesh.

Matthew 15:
10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”

12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”

13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides.[Matthew 15] If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

15 Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”

16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

Sin comes out of our heart, so being tempted to eat, but what come out of His heart was that man can't live on bread alone but every word that comes from God shows that He will not follow the devil word, but like I said being hungry is not a sin.

 

[freeatlast]

I am not separated nothing they are one if the flesh sins the whole being is defiled. He was never tempted to sin or even thought of sin, but was tempted with things that we are tempted with, but defeated the desire of the flesh.

Matthew 15:
10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”

12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”

13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides.[Matthew 15] If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

15 Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”

16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

Sin comes out of our heart, so being tempted to eat, but what come out of His heart was that man can't live on bread alone but every word that comes from God shows that He will not follow the devil word, but like I said being hungry is not a sin.

Ok the then how is this true then if Jesus was tempted but did not feel the temptation how is this true?
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
How is it that it is said that He was tempted as we, feels our infirmities, if He never thought of doing the temptation?

 

[Aaron]

I cannot believe what I am reading in this thread. It smacks of paganism to even suggest that Christ had a sin nature or that Christ could have sinned. Their knowledge of the Scriptures is barren, their opinion of Christ is very low, and their opinion of themselves is very high. If they know Christ at all, they know Him very little, and they know themselves even less.

 

[quantumfaith]

no...



_____

Interesting,

Hebrews 4:15 indicates that He was in all ways tempted as we are. Which brings up a whole host of interesting questions, but the most theologically interesting (IMO) is that of the OP.

Does this tell us that Jesus (the man) had a nature equivalent to ours?

 

[Jarthur001]

I cannot believe what I am reading in this thread............

Yes...me too. Some of the post on this thread, makes me wonder.

It is much easier to understand then some have tried to make it. Lets say to pick up a rock is a sin. Christ had the power within his human nature to pick up that rock. Christ did not have the sin desire to pick up that rock.

When the Bible uses the word temptations toward Christ, this does not mean that Christ was DRAWN to sin. The main idea is trials. In other words, the object which the devil used to bring temptation, (the rock in this case) is laid before the subject (Christ in this case) as a trail by the devil (or means of temptation). Yet Christ had no desire at any time to pick up that rock. He endured the trail (the subject used by the devil) without being drawn in any way.

 

[quantumfaith]

Perhaps we should clarify the definition of "sin nature". Our sinful nature came as a result of the original sin, but the ability to chose to sin, sin nature as we call it, predates the original sin. Jesus had the ability to sin, act in contradiction to the Father's will, but He chose to submit to the Father's will. Case in point; at the garden of Gethsemane He asked God to relieve Him of the cup that was to soon come to Him, but He submitted His human will to the Father. There is a differentiation between the ability to sin & the desire to sin.

Is it possible to be fully human & not have the ability to chose to sin? I think not. The great truth is that Jesus was in all points tempted & yet CHOSE not to sin. This is the ultimate expression of the freewill of man within Scripture.

Michael, honest question. How do we KNOW that the "sin nature" predates the original sin?

 

[Jarthur001]

Michael, honest question. How do we KNOW that the "sin nature" predates the original sin?

Because the Creator made a "GOOD" man that has "fallen" into sin.

 

[quantumfaith]

Adam was free of original sin, yet he could be tempted and was capable of sin.

Jesus was also free of original sin, but could be tempted and was capable of sin. (If you're not capable of sin, there could be no temptation.)

Adam chose to sin; Jesus chose not to sin.

Adam brought the curse of death to mankind; Jesus brought us life and reversed the curse.

Excellent observation Zenas.

 

[quantumfaith]

How about this paradox: Can God die or can the Trinity be divided? Both occurred on the cross. Jesus, as God, DIED. How? He is the God-man. Where do you think the Greeks got their idea of Perseus? When Jesus cried, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?", God had separated Himself from Christ in judgment of the sin that Jesus had taken upon Himself for us. This was the true sacrifice of the cross; the Son was not part of the Trinity for a time.
Jehovah is a God of infinite complexity that we will never fully understand. Our very existence is in contradiction with His holy nature. His grace & judgement are diametrically opposed & yet exist in complete harmony through the person & sacrifice of Christ. Christ's ability to sin was in complete harmony with His submission to the Father's will. BTW, if His will was the same as the Father's, then how could He have submitted to Him? To submit implies freedom of choice & freedom of choice is the ability to sin.

Michael,

It is my conviction here, the quoting of Psalm 22, that Jesus was quoting this as a Psalm of Victory, which it is and not necessarily a picture of "God turning His back on Christ at that moment. Although it is entirely possible, seems to me to a bit of perhaps spiritualizing. But like O,Reilly says....I could be wrong. ( Probably am )

 

[psalms109:31]

Ok the then how is this true then if Jesus was tempted but did not feel the temptation how is this true?
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
How is it that it is said that He was tempted as we, feels our infirmities, if He never thought of doing the temptation?

The key word is without sin, if He would of just thought of sinning He would of sinned. He was tempted by the same stuff, by being around it. Knowing what it was like being hungry, sleepy, tired and everything of the frailty of the flesh, but did not sin. That is the way I have always seen when looking at that verse. Maybe you see something differently , but this is the way i see it.

 

[quantumfaith]

Because the Creator made a "GOOD" man that has "fallen" into sin.

Good point, I "feel" that this nature is an inevitable consequence of a free moral agency. If man had the omniscience of God from the beginning and understood sin as God perhaps he would have chosen differently. But alas, we are not God, hence the tactic of the serpent to appeal to the desire to be "like God".

 

[Jarthur001]

Good point, I "feel" that this nature is an inevitable consequence of a free moral agency. If man had the omniscience of God from the beginning and understood sin as God perhaps he would have chosen differently. But alas, we are not God, hence the tactic of the serpent to appeal to the desire to be "like God".

QF,

Well, I would say that Adam did know what sin was, (maybe not the word sin but the meaning...to not follow God), because he was there with Eve when she told the Devil what God had said.

Gen 3:4
But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

To many...Good and evil here means "ALL THINGS".

 

[freeatlast]

The key word is without sin, if He would of just thought of sinning He would of sinned. He was tempted by the same stuff, by being around it. Knowing what it was like being hungry, sleepy, tired and everything of the frailty of the flesh, but did not sin. That is the way I have always seen when looking at that verse. Maybe you see something differently , but this is the way i see it.

For me it does not answer the question how He knows our infimities if He never battled the temptations we battle. Also how He was tempted in all things even as we. This raises some serious issues, not addressed in your response. I am not saying your wrong, I don't know, although in what I do hold I do not hold the exact understnding. I simply see your answer going to a point and stopping without dealing with the whole.

 

[psalms109:31]

Jesus never tempted to sin

For me it does not answer the question how He knows our infimities if He never battled the temptations we battle. Also how He was tempted in all things even as we. This raises some serious issues, not addressed in your response. I am not saying your wrong, I don't know, although in what I do hold I do not hold the exact understnding. I simply see your answer going to a point and stopping without dealing with the whole.

The key word is without sin, if He would of just thought of sinning He would of sinned. He was tempted by the same stuff, by being around it. Knowing what it was like being hungry, sleepy, tired and everything of the frailty of the flesh, but did not sin. That is the way I have always seen when looking at that verse. Maybe you see something differently , but this is the way i see it.

This has answered for me, I am sorry it hasn't for you. To think sin is to sin and Jesus can't do that. Jesus defeated the tempting of the flesh. What defilled us is not what goes in or what we see, but what has come out of the heart.

He was tempted, but did not give away to His own evil desires for He had none. Tempted by food is not sin, but evil desires that goes out of the heart is.

James 1
14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.

Do you believe Jesus was dragged away by His own evil desire?

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Michael, honest question. How do we KNOW that the "sin nature" predates the original sin?

The "sin nature", as it is normally meant, came as a result of the original sin. The "ability to chose sin" predates the original sin. There needs to be clarification of definitions when we discuss the "sin nature". I believe that it is this miscommunication which is the cause of much misunderstanding of the topic.

 

[freeatlast]

The key word is without sin, if He would of just thought of sinning He would of sinned. He was tempted by the same stuff, by being around it. Knowing what it was like being hungry, sleepy, tired and everything of the frailty of the flesh, but did not sin. That is the way I have always seen when looking at that verse. Maybe you see something differently , but this is the way i see it.

This has answered for me, I am sorry it hasn't for you. To think sin is to sin and Jesus can't do that. Jesus defeated the tempting of the flesh. What defilled us is not what goes in or what we see, but what has come out of the heart.

He was tempted, but did not give away to His own evil desires for He had none. Tempted by food is not sin, but evil desires that goes out of the heart is.

James 1
14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.

Do you believe Jesus was dragged away by His own evil desire?

I am not in total disagreement with you. I do not believe that the Lord had any evil desires. However based on James and the understanding as to how temptation and sin comes about and the explanation of Hebrews
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

There is some understanding that I lack in that how can He know our feelings in our battle against sin, because there is no battle without desire, if we hold that he never felt the desire and yet the claim is made that He was tempted in all points as we. I assume you see the difficulty here?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Jesus was not, and is not, a created being.
So He had no propensity, at all, to sin, though He can be tempted, and that is the difference between Him and Adam, who also was created without sin, but had the propensity and inclination towards it.

He was the Eternal Word....and the word was God.
The difference between His birth and that of His pre-incarnate appearances in the Old Testament is that in the latter he was just as he wanted people to see him.

In His birth, He came as He was prophesied, in the likeness of sinful flesh, to say that He has a sinful nature based on this description is to read too much into Scripture.

 

[psalms109:31]

I am not in total disagreement with you. I do not believe that the Lord had any evil desires. However based on James and the understanding as to how temptation and sin comes about and the explanation of Hebrews
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

There is some understanding that I lack in that how can He know our feelings in our battle against sin, because there is no battle without desire, if we hold that he never felt the desire and yet the claim is made that He was tempted in all points as we. I assume you see the difficulty here?

Jesus had all the desires tempting as man being tired, hungry, sleepy, wanting companionship, wanted to go back to who you are and once was, not wanting to die. None of these is an evil desire, it is when because of this we give into evil desire, that Jesus did not have that we have sinned.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Christ was 100% God & 100% creation. That is the mystery of the incarnation. He became flesh(creation) in order to fulfill the Law from within the Law.