Did Jesus Have a Sinful Nature While on Earth?

[Agnus_Dei]

FYI...the article i posted for you yesterday, answers both these questions...

1. Was Jesus' temptations to sin as strong as our temptations to sin?
2. Were His temptations the same type of temptations as our temptations?

You have to have a proper understanding of the Trinity first...With Christ's incarnation assuming human nature (our human nature 100%), Christ united it with God. Christ 100% human and having a Divine Nature inseparable from His human nature, Christ could NOT depart from God, in other words Christ could NOT sin.

So yes, Christ's temptations were the same as ours?

Did Christ's temptation to sin as strong as ours is to sin, when we are faced with a situation?...I believe it wasn't based on...He was 100% Divine...he was/is GOD and could not by His very Divine nature sin, even if He wanted too...His Humanity submitted entirely, unconditionally to His Divinity...in other words there was no strong desire to follow through or even entertain an idea to sin...it wasn't there...

In XC
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[drfuss]

FYI...the article i posted for you yesterday, answers both these questions...
You have to have a proper understanding of the Trinity first...With Christ's incarnation assuming human nature (our human nature 100%), Christ united it with God. Christ 100% human and having a Divine Nature inseparable from His human nature, Christ could NOT depart from God, in other words Christ could NOT sin.

So yes, Christ's temptations were the same as ours?

Did Christ's temptation to sin as strong as ours is to sin, when we are faced with a situation?...I believe it wasn't based on...He was 100% Divine...he was/is GOD and could not by His very Divine nature sin, even if He wanted too...His Humanity submitted entirely, unconditionally to His Divinity...in other words there was no strong desire to follow through or even entertain an idea to sin...it wasn't there...

In XC
-

"Christ could NOT depart from God, in other words Christ could NOT sin."

drfuss: Was it really temptation then? If I look at doing something that I know is impossible for me to do, I have no temptation to do it or even try to do it. I have no temptation to try to lift a ten story concrete building since it would be impossible for me to do it. If Jesus could not do something, then how could He be tempted to do it.

Since nothing is impossible with God, I believe Jesus could have given into temptation and committed sin. But because of His great love for us and to obtain our salvation, He chose to resist all temptation and therefore was sinless and able to provide salvation for us.

One of my favorite TV church programs opens with "God doesn't expect us to understand Him, He just want us to trust Him." Maybe that is how we should approach this issue.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Since nothing is impossible with God, I believe Jesus could have given into temptation and committed sin.

That is not right.

But I will say that Christ could have called the Angels from heaven to rescue Him if He wanted.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Agnus Dei, I would not agree that the notions you presented indicate a proper understanding of the Divine Nature of Christ. God divested Himself of certain powers to take on the likeness of human flesh. The only thing that makes sense to me is that Christ had to accept His position as Divine ‘by faith’ on this earth, thereby making temptations real and valid in all points as we are, just as Scripture clearly attest to.

If Christ could not have been tempted or drawn away due to strong desires or lusts, He could not have been tempted in ALL points as we are. To have a strong desire or lust is not sin in and of itself. It must be yielded to to incur sin. Christ simply never sinned or yielded to those desires.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Agnus Dei, I would not agree that the notions you presented indicate a proper understanding of the Divine Nature of Christ. God divested Himself of certain powers to take on the likeness of human flesh. The only thing that makes sense to me is that Christ had to accept His position as Divine ‘by faith’ on this earth, thereby making temptations real and valid in all points as we are, just as Scripture clearly attest to.

nope...Christ being 100% Divine (God), being apart of the Holy Trinity from in the beginning, did not have to "accept" His position as being Divine by "faith"...where do you even get that notion from Holy Scripture or from what the Church has taught about Christ from the beginning?

even Christ Himself knew who He was and there was no having to accept anything by "faith", that He was truly God.

After Christ asked His Disciple's whom do people say that I am the Son of Man, am in matthew 16:13, He asks the the same question in a more personal and direct manner..."But whom do YOU say that I am?"...that is to say...you are with me always, and see me working miracles, and have yourselves done many mighty works by me...St. Peter answered boldly..."You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

The disciple's may have had to take Christ being God 100% by "faith"...but Not Christ, the Son of the living God.

In XC
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[DHK]

Only those holding onto the false presupposition of original sin try and make such unsupported notions stick. They are constantly trying to drum up ‘penumbral’ notions that might provide cover for their false dogma.

Your mind is made up. You refuse to listen to Scripture. If all the evidence in the world were presented to you and could not be refuted, you still would not believe. There is no sense in going on in this debate. The greatest apologists in the world will not be able to change your mind that "the false presupposition of original sin... is unsupported. They are constantly trying to drum up 'penumbral' notions that provide cover for their false dogma."

Your mind is made up. Why even participate in this debate. It is no longer a debate as far as you are concerned. It is your mantra.

 

[webdog]

That is not right.

But I will say that Christ could have called the Angels from heaven to rescue Him if He wanted.

He could have done that...but wasn't that one of the things He was tempted to do?

Temptation is only that if one is really tempted. The Bible says Christ was tempted. We may not understand that entirely, but it is true, and the possibility to sin was there in the temptation as you even alluded to.

 

[DHK]

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

There is no question about it. He was tempted, just as we are.

 

[Johnv]

That is not right.

I agree. Some of these argument are nothign more than "if God can do anything, can He make a rock so big that he can't move it" or "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin".

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: There is no question about it. He was tempted, just as we are.

HP: Just to see if you will stand still long enough in that position to ascertain what you really believe,…………

So Christ was drawn away of His own lusts and enticed just as we are, correct DHK?

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

 

[BobRyan]

The passage in James is referring to man's propensity to say "I was tempted by God". It's addressing this specific human inclination. Jesus was fully human, therefore, capable of experiencing temptation (but not of giving in).

Matt 4 stated clearly that Jesus was tempted by Satan.

Being tempted, being week, being hungry, being tired and exhausted -- all of this Jesus experienced as "man" but never as God before becoming incarnate and living among us as "God with us". He even experienced "not knowing how to talk" as an infant and not knowing how to walk or how to eat solid food...

It is pretty hard to argue that at every stage of his life on earth - Jesus exhibited all the strengths and abilities of "God".

So the Phil 2 statement is correct - as God he chose to "empty himself" being found in the form of a man - he sufferred the pains and anguish of life on this sinful planet.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Agnus Dei: nope...Christ being 100% Divine (God), being apart of the Holy Trinity from in the beginning, did not have to "accept" His position as being Divine by "faith"...where do you even get that notion from Holy Scripture or from what the Church has taught about Christ from the beginning?

HP: We know Christ was divested in some measures of the glory, knowledge, etc. that He had with God before the worlds were formed. He grew as a child in understanding, wisdom, and favor with God and man. God the Father became increasingly favorable towards Christ as He grew. Explain that to us if you can. If in fact Christ had to accept His position in the deity by faith, that would seem as a probable cause for such passages top me. He clearly stated in one instance, that ‘Mt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” In another instance He noted that His will in the flesh was not in total agreement with the will of the Father’s will when He said, Mt 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.” His flesh was obviously trying to persuade His will to allow that cup of suffering, but His Spirit obviously overruled those feelings as was the case in all temptations.

Agnus Dei: even Christ Himself knew who He was and there was no having to accept anything by "faith", that He was truly God.

HP; Clearly there is a mystery that surrounds the Incarnation that no man can understand. If you do not agree with me, you have that right, but I believe my explanation is far closer to the truth than the notion that Christ was tempted but He could not have been tempted/ Christ was tempted in all points as we are but He could not have been, as I hear coming from other sources. I am at least trying to find some harmony between the clear passages we have and the mystery surrounding His Incarnation, whereas others simply dismiss the clear import of passages that clearly state He was in fact tempted in ALL points as we are.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Has ones faith ever been tested, even concerning the reality of God Himself? Hmmmmm. Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Christ, a true man of faith BR?

 

[Jedi Knight]

Scripture says Jesus was tempted but does that mean from within? No I think he was tempted by Satan but that was not something He could fall to. It's like if I tempted you with candy but you hate candy so it's only a temtation from outside from the tempter. Scripture also say God cannot be tempted to do evil so I believe Jesus was impeccable to sin.:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

HP: Just to see if you will stand still long enough in that position to ascertain what you really believe,…………

So Christ was drawn away of His own lusts and enticed just as we are, correct DHK?

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

I simply quoted Scripture HP. You either believe it or you don't.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

So Christ was drawn away of His own lusts and enticed just as we are, correct DHK?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I am asking DHK a hard question at best. In fairness I might give my own question at least an attempt.

There are clear distinctions say between how we are tempted at this stage in our life and how Christ was. Christ never sinned even from the beginning. We have sinned. As one yields to the proclivity to sin, the temptation strengthens by habit. It becomes far easier to yield as habit breaks down even further barriers to sin. Habit often allows the conscience to be seared, to allow us to act at times even as’ if though’ we have no conscience. Christ certainly did not endure the obstacles of habit, nor was it necessary for Him to endure in order for it to be said of Him, He was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

We also know that certain temptation do not occur to everyone as a child. Christ had the distinct advantage over us, having formed righteous habits even from His youth up. The advantage lay in His pattern of obedience from childhood and not that He was not tempted as we are.

Thoughts DHK?

 

[DHK]

I
We also know that certain temptation do not occur to everyone as a child. Christ had the distinct advantage over us, having formed righteous habits even from His youth up. The advantage lay in His pattern of obedience from childhood and not that He was not tempted as we are.

Thoughts DHK?

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

1 Peter 2:22-24 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Matthew 1:22-23 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jesus, as a man, was tempted in all points just as we are--as the Bible declares in Heb.4:15. But he never sinned. He had the power to overcome sin for he never had a sin nature. The reason he was born of a virgin was that he would not inherit the sin nature passed down through the seed of Adam. Jesus did not have that. He was born of a virgin. His nature was divine. But it was human as well He was perfectly God and perfectly human, both at the same time. When tempted with sin he did not have the sin nature to overcome.

However, a child, even one year old, has a sin nature to overcome. When he disobeys his parents it is sin. He does it because he has a sin nature and is prone to sin. His sin nature causes him to desire sin over the desire to do good, even at the age of one.

Even though Jesus never sinned, didn't have a sin nature, he still was tempted just as we are. The Bible declares that he was.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

If we are what we are and are tempted because we are born with a certain nature, if Christ had not that nature it is absurd to say that he was tempted as we are. Certainly there are many uncertainties in our theology we can attribute to the mysteries surrounding the Incarnation, but our theology should never entertain absurdities such as the thought that He could not be but was tempted in all points as we are via our nature as opposed to His nature. Something cannot be and not be at the same time in the same sense. If Christ had our nature, it is clear He could be tempted in all points as we are via that nature. If He did not have our nature, He could not have been tempted in all points as we are due to the fact His nature was of another kind insolated and isolated from a very source of our temptation, i.e., our nature.

You are certainly allowed to believe anyway you so desire DHK, but I for one believe your thoughts on the nature Christ as you present them here contain clear absurdities and notions that go absolutely cross grain to Scripture and reason.