Did Jesus have Divine or Human Blood?

[Hal Parker]

Me2 wrote:
"Jesus Physical Body Was No Different From Adams..Perfect before Adams Fall (and The Introduction of Entropy within Adams Body."

The article I referred to does have bearing on this topic. You are claiming that entropy did not affect the body of Jesus.

Well, let's examine this. From thermodynamics and statistical mechanics an entropy change that is positive will determine the direction of energy flow.

Did Jesus sweat? I think so. If his body temperature rose above a preset level, his system would alter to lower the temperature. He would sweat. Just like any one of us. When he got too hot, he would sweat and that would lower his body temperature. If there is a flow of thermal energy, there is an entropy change. For you to claim that entropy did not apply to Jesus, you must also claim that he did not sweat. Are you ready to claim that? This conclusion is based on the basic principles of thermodynamics.

What about thermodynamics and blood? The red blood cells transer oxygen and carbon dioxide through the cell membranes by osmosis. Osmosis is diffusion through a semipermeable membrane. When diffusion occurs there is an entropy change. Therefore, for blood to function in its designed function for respiration there will be an entropy change. Therefore, if the blood of Jesus when it was flowing through his body actually transferred oxygen and carbon dioxide, there was an entropy change. If you want to maintain that entropy did not apply to Jesus,then you must also conclude that His blood did not transfer oxygen and carbon dioxide. Are you ready to claim that? Again, I am just applying the rules of thermodynamics to the situation.

So, if entropy did not apply to Jesus, then he could not sweat and his blood could not transfer oxygen. I don't see how those things are justified. Therefore, I reject your conclusion that entropy did not apply to Jesus. And that he had human blood. If he did not have ordinary human blood he could not have been our substitute.

 

[Bible-belted]

"So, if entropy did not apply to Jesus, then he could not sweat and his blood could not transfer oxygen. I don't see how those things are justified. Therefore, I reject your conclusion that entropy did not apply to Jesus. And that he had human blood. If he did not have ordinary human blood he could not have been our substitute."

And thus it is again proven that Jesus was fully human.

Really what Me2 advocates is an old heresy. He tries to say that Jesus was not a Person with 2 natures (humanity and deity) but a weird mixture, a person neither human nor divine, but some combination thereof. In Me2s thinking Jesuswas not like us.

 

[Me2]

Guys,
I Replied That The Laws OfThermodynamics Didnt Apply To Gods Creation In its original State..Which I Believe did not contain entropy. But Was Created By God And He Willed It To Exist..No power Supply necessary. He Willed It To Continue to Exist.

Thermodynamic laws pertain to this universe that contains entropy..whether open or closed system...and we know that entropy is one way..it disapates.

Would God Create Something That would potentialy disapate?

Jesus Body was completely human..in its original Created state..A Body which We Today Cant Imagine except by Faith. a Body That Doesnt need food...That Could Exist Forever..

How About That Transfiguration Thing or That Walking on Water Thing ?
Explain That With Modern Physics or even Know Physical Laws or Theories...

Only Through faith Can We imagine what That Human Body Was Like And Its Capabilities.
Only Through Faith Can We Combine A Holy God And A Human Body.

But Theres A Few Things That We Have To Agree On...That God The Father is Perfect and pure. That He Can Only Exist In A Perfect Environment. That He Doesnt operate under Physical Laws That Effect or Hinder Him...He Lives By Will.
That The Blood That Was Within That Body Was Perfect.Sinless.Pure and only able to exist in the pesents of a holy God.
He Valued That Blood Above Everything..It Represented "His" Life. and worth more than a everything we can imagine combined.

Just As Much As You Guys Believe Jesus Had Human Blood..I Believe God Willed It To Exit Forever, Far Outside The Realms of What We Understand as Current Physics of This Universe.
We Walk By Faith, Not By Sight

Me2

 

[Sularis]

Actually Me2 - I would disagree with you

I have pre-fall blood - you have pre-fall blood
The curse of sin and death was not a physical one - although it did have physical effects

I dont know how fast the maturation rate was for those who lived 100 of years and such i wont bother with it - I simply want to point you again to the verse that says Adam and mankind's physical bodies were designed to die, perhaps not in the same manner, but still cessation of physical function

Gen 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Someone please post a verse where it states that God's blood is some kind of divine mixture. That way I can consider it, and we can have a reasonable debate

 

[Bible-belted]

" I Replied That The Laws OfThermodynamics Didnt Apply To Gods Creation In its original State..Which I Believe did not contain entropy. But Was Created By God And He Willed It To Exist..No power Supply necessary. He Willed It To Continue to Exist."

You've said it but you haven't proven it. Besides even now God sustains His creation. I see no dofference that you yourself don't read in.

" Would God Create Something That would potentialy disapate?"

Who is to say He did not? This is an assumption, one that needs to be proven.

"Jesus Body was completely human..in its original Created state..A Body which We Today Cant Imagine except by Faith. a Body That Doesnt need food...That Could Exist Forever.."

Jesus was like us n all respects, we are told, except one. He was without sin. To say he did not need food goes against explicit scripture. Jesus said he was thirsty (Jn. 19:28). He got tired (Jn. 4:6). He got hungry if he didn;t eat (Lk. 4:2). Jesus aged, which in itself implies that he wouldn't go on forever. This is just unbiblical nonsense you're givng us here.

"How About That Transfiguration Thing or That Walking on Water Thing ?
Explain That With Modern Physics or even Know Physical Laws or Theories... "

I happen to believe in miracles, which are times when Jesus uses His ower to overcome the limitations of the laws of nature. We don't NEED to explain them in scientific terms. They are miracles, and so-called by Scripture itself. By definition then they don't require that kind of scientific explanation.

"But Theres A Few Things That We Have To Agree On...That God The Father is Perfect and pure. That He Can Only Exist In A Perfect Environment. That He Doesnt operate under Physical Laws That Effect or Hinder Him...He Lives By Will.
That The Blood That Was Within That Body Was Perfect.Sinless.Pure and only able to exist in the pesents of a holy God.

He Valued That Blood Above Everything..It Represented "His" Life. and worth more than a everything we can imagine combined."

Yes God the Father is Perfect. I don't agree that he can only live in a perfect envoronment. He is Himself perfection. Your ideas about science are just plain loopy.

We walk by faith and not by sight, and not by fantasy. (Where do people get these ideas??)

[ September 04, 2002, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Latreia ]

 

[jerryMschneider]

Luke 1:30 The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.
31 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.
32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."
34 Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"
35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Joseph had nothing to do with the physical generation of Jesus.

[ September 04, 2002, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: jerryMschneider ]

 

[jerryMschneider]

Originally posted by 2 Timothy 4:2:
Sularis said:
The sin nature passes through the male. Where did his sin nature come from Sularis?

Really? Then woman are free from sin?

 

[jerryMschneider]

Originally posted by Helen:


Remember, flesh and blood cannot inherit heaven (1 Cor. 15:50). Jesus has no blood now, and we will not at the time our receiving of new bodies either.

I would likt to suggest to you that this was a figure of speach, indicating that man cannot attain heaven by fleshly means, it does not imply that those who inhabit, or inherit heaven have no blood, for if that was true then that person cannot have flesh for the same reason!

 

[jerryMschneider]

Originally posted by A.J.Armitage:

The sin-nature comes from the male line, not the female. Note in Genesis, it was the woman's seed, not the male's, that would crush the head of the serpent. That's because Jesus was a female-line descendant of Eve, but not a male-line descendant of Adam.

We hear this source of the sin nature again as being indicated as comming from the male side, do you have any Biblical basis for this?

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by jerryMschneider:
We hear this source of the sin nature again as being indicated as comming from the male side, do you have any Biblical basis for this?

Romans 5:12 would be one.

No, women are not free. Can you give me an example of a woman that has been conceived apart from male sperm?

[ September 04, 2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: PreachtheWord ]

 

[Me2]

Jesus Chose To Be Thirsty So That People Would Witness Him Being A Man. It Was For Their Sakes. One MAN DIES FOR ANOTHER.
He Was God..He Didnt Need To eat..He Sweated For You and Me To Believe A Man Came To Where We Are and Died For Us.
He Thirsted For You and Me To Believe..He Couldnt Die Like Us Frail Human Beings.
Remember, He Said No Man Takes My Life..He Laid His Life Down To Be Taken into death.

He Was A Man..But He Was God...Each and Every Second.
He Lived By God the Fathers Sustinance..By Gods The Fathers Will.

He ate For You And Me To Believe.

..This was a Real Action of Condescension on Gods Part to Prove To Mankind That He Loves His Creation.
GOD Came In A FORM of A Man..With a Body That Was Not Of This Universe of Decay.

Everything He Did While He Was Here ..He Did To Be Witnessed by Others. For Their Need.
For Their Remembrance and Their Faith. For The Faith Of Everyone.

His Needs Were Supplied By His Father. Just Like Life Is Supposed To Be Like.

Me2

 

[Ransom]

Me2 said:

I Replied That The Laws OfThermodynamics Didnt Apply To Gods Creation In its original State..Which I Believe did not contain entropy.

In that case, will you please explain:

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• how Adam and Eve's digestive system worked?</font>
• how Adam and Eve walked?</font>

Both the chemical reactions involved in digestion, and the friction necessary to walk, require entropy. A world without thermodynamics, is, in a word, unlivable.
Would God Create Something That would potentialy disapate?

Maybe he would. No reason why not.

Jesus Body was completely human..a Body That Doesnt need food...That Could Exist Forever..

A body that doesn't need food? First, by definition that is not a completely human body, so you contradict yourself.

Second, Jesus' "completely human" body got hungry (Matt. 4:2), thirsty (John 4:6-7), and tired (Luke 8:23); sufficiently damaged, he died. So it would appear that we are in factual disagreement concerning the nature of the Lord Jesus' biology, wouldn't it?

 

[Ransom]

Me2 said:

Jesus Chose To Be Thirsty . . .
He Sweated For You and Me To Believe . . .
He Thirsted For You and Me To Believe..
He Couldnt Die Like Us Frail Human Beings. . . .
He ate For You And Me To Believe.

So Jesus thirsted, hungered, sweat, and died not because his body required food, water, cooling, and health to survive, but because he had to convince people he was really human?

In other words, you are saying that Jesus deceived men into thinking his body was just like theirs?

 

[Bible-belted]

Condescension?

Give me a break.

John 4:6 is explicit. Jesus was tired "from the long journey". He was physically tired becuase of the long walk.

Luke 4 is also clear. jesus fasted and was hungry.

To say that Jesus only came int he form of a man is not true. 1John is very clear about those who deny the full humanity of Jesus.

That Jesus humanity was like ours is obvious. He was born, like we were. He grew, like we do (that in itself indicates that Jesus aged, and we all know where that leads) (Lk. 2:52).

Jesus also suffered physically, and could be wounded physically, and die physically.

This is a heresy your putting out. It is a variety of Docetism. And as long as you make assertions without evidence, there is no reaso to take you seriously.

You are correct in affirming the full deity of Chriost, but you go too far, denying his full humanity. In avoiding one shoer you hit another and end up shipwrecked.

 

[Me2]

Deceived is Such an negative word...How About convinced.

Anyways..A Lot of Things require Faith of God to Believe.
God Says Hes Perfect..By The Way... I Have To Believe This...
I Accept That Everything He Does Is Perfect..He Creates Perfectly..

God Says Hes All In All..Thats A Big Statement..OK.. By Faith..Go and Try to Understand It.
Many People Have Tried to Explain Creation.. Im Just One More opinion...

The Things That Ive Previously Posted That Jesus Lived By Gods Will Is Just That..
Didnt He Create A Universe By Saying "Let It Be"...Thats Will Power..

Jesus Lived By Being "connected" to God The Father..Continuing to supply his very atoms of his body for sustinance...Did Jesus Think about it..."Man Does Not Live By Bread Alone..But By Every Word Of God"... Maybe a hint?.....

How About AFTER Jesus Died..Did He HAVE TO EAT..
luk 24:42 and they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
luk 24:43 and he took it, and did eat before them.

We Often Ask Such Silly Questions..Just How Does God Keep All Those Gazillions of Stars out There From Crashing into One Another?..or Knowing All The Thoughts of Every Creature in Heaven and Earth?....
Did Jesus Have Divine Blood ?

Jesus Could Have Snapped His Finger and Time would Have Stood Still...

Some Even Dare To Believe Jesus Was Divine....All Of Him.

Me2

 

[Bible-belted]

Until you actually interacty with the evidnce provided for the full humanity of Christ (instead of piling unsubstantiated assertion on top of unsubstantiated assertion) I'm not bothering with this.

Heresy will get what it deserves.

BTW, are you aware that denying the full humanity of Christ maks one anti-Christ? See 1John.

 

[Me2]

Im sorry I cant add anything other than acknowledging That Jesus Human Body was
from The matter that came from The time before adam fell...without entropy.
and i also understand that an anti-christ is one who adds to,takes away from, or requires anything other than the sole work of the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ for ones salvation.
and I also believe that ...
Anything thought of by man is folly unless substantiated by the Acknowledgement of and faith of God that it is true...Maybe What We are Speaking of is Folly ?..Maybe Not..

Me2

[ September 04, 2002, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

[Bible-belted]

Originally posted by Me2:
Im Sorry I Cant Add Anything other than acknowledging That Jesus Human Body Was
From The Matter that came from The time before adam fell...without entropy.
and i also understand that an anti-christ is one who adds to or requires anything other than the sole work of the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ for ones salvation.
and I Also believe that ...
Anything thought of by man is folly unless substantiated by the Acknowledgement of and faith of God that it is true...Maybe What We are Speaking of is Folly ?..Maybe Not..

Me2

Lots of assertions, but absolutely no proof...

Yup, its folly that you speak, but a very dangerous folly for it is heretical folly.

 

[Ransom]

Me2 said:

Deceived is Such an negative word...How About convinced.

No, I'm sticking with my first choice.

You said that he ate, drank, sweat, and died "for you and me to believe" he was a man. Even though it is not part of Christ's nature to do these things, according to you, he did it anyway in order to convince people that he was a human being just like them.

In other words, the Lord Jesus pretended he was something he was not. He tried to convince his disciples he was something he was not.

That, friend, is the very definition of deception.

By claiming the Lord Jesus' body wasn't fully human like mine, you make him to be a liar.

How About AFTER Jesus Died..Did He HAVE TO EAT.. luk 24:42 and they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. luk 24:43 and he took it, and did eat before them.

That passage proves my point, not yours. Jesus ate that fish to prove he was not some ghostly apparition, but a living person with a real body and all the parts for eating with.

Denying that Christ's body was in every respect a real, human body, only without sin, is heresy. There is no other word to describe it accurately. It is heresy. Moreover, Latreia is right when she says it is a denial that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, and those who deny Christ thus are Antichrist (1 John 4:3; 2 John 7).

 

[Me2]

Hi,

If Their Was Any Convincing To Be Done..It Was From God The Father to Mankind...Through Jesus...
Before The Fall Creation Contained No Entropy...No Decay..as If God The Creator Fed Each Atom of It Own Power Necessities..Thus No Entropy..Perfect, none decaying capable of existing forever.
From The Scriptures use of wording in genesis, it seems to me that God Was Planning to add entropy or slow decay for the environmental evolution....even in death, we believe God did a real good job. Life Can Still Exist..but its A Slow Death.... Everything has a sense or process that exemplifys dying..ie seed.Seasons..

God Even Mentioning "Death" in the introduction of the "tree of Knowledge". after the "Fall" God makes a mention of an additional step in this process was necessary as if a plan was being followed...The "Tree" of Life.
Thus would complete "Mans" evolution into a God/Man. a Plan That Could Wrap our universe into eternity..hidden within God Himself. We Would Become As close to God As He Will Allow.
Aaahhh...The original plan revisited..or the "Partaking of Both Trees" in a planned process of God?..a Process That enabled Man To Become 100% subservient under a "Lord"?

However you would like to say it..Seperation and the placement of mankind into this environment that allowed evil and Death and Entropy to exist Temporarily was Gods plan all Along..Beginning to ending...(note..my belief) Dont we learn from reading the Last Book In our bible The Lamb Slain Before The Foundation Of The World...A Plan Of Redemption Before Entropy and Decay Ever Began......God Intended On Pulling The Plug.

To Observe The Goodness of God, He Allows Us The Vantage Point of a little lower than Life itself. A Place lower than Good, A Little lower than perfection. A Place where we can observe Evil without being Etenally Harmed.. unfortunately everything has an opposite and goodness has evil. Gods Plan is To Destroy The existence of evil in our environment. our eternal environment that someday will contain no evil, no entropy, no death, no decay forever. and it will be you and me together with God That Places these negative things where they belong.
Out of Our Existence.......

When Adam Fell God Pulled The Plug of His Living Eternal energy on every atom in this universe...It Starts to decay. Everything is turning into inert Matter that will no loger contain energy..Lifeless. We Still Can Exist on the power that our bodies can maintain...with a lot of help..Adam Lived a 1000 years..we live 70..Thats Decay..Thats God Still Giving Mankind an opportunity to exist in this universe that is slowly dying.

Jesus Come on the Scene..As I Have Said Before..A Perfect Sinless Body..God Is Attached To Him.
God The Father Places The Environmental Restrictions on Him. He Doesnt Have To Eat, or sleep, or Get Sick or overheated, or exhausted..His Body is Perfect and He Is Connected to The Fathers Power Source....No Entropy. At The Molecular Level To The Observable Level..
As Peter Says..Incorruptable. but...... His Mental Will placed under the restrictions of The Fathers Will.
Jesus Eats because the Father Requires Jesus To Eat To Prove To The People Around Him That He Is Fully Human. Jesus Lives By The Fathers Will....Try It..Let God Tell You If You Require To Eat..Not For Self, But To Prove To Others That Your Fully Human.
Jesus Was There To Do A Job..To Be What The Father Required Him To Be and Do.
As Jesus Grew, He Started To Comprehend What His Capabilities Of His Body Were....
Miracles....How About will Power..how about covenant power between Jesus and God The Father.
He Was God and He Had A Perfect Body..With Uncorrupted Blood.
Blood That Existed Before The Foundation of The World. Blood That Exists Now In Heaven.
Blood That Value Is Worth All Of Gods Creation.
Blood That Covered over All Effects of Sin on Gods Creation.
Blood That Appeased A Holy God.
Blood That Redeemed Gods (infinitely valued) People

No One Took Jesus Life..He Gave It Up..He Withstood even protecting Himself When Anyone Tried To Take His Life....(hint..he Knew That the Father Protected Him..every second)

So Now..Jesus Blood Is Called Incorruptable...does that Mean Divine (pet 1:18-20)

Me2

[ September 05, 2002, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]