Did Jesus Have Faith?

[percho]

Did he divest himself of his glory?

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

What about his immortality, was he at the mercy of God the Father?

Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:
Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

This day. What day?

Act 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, [now] no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Just what was the sure mercies of David?

Act 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another [psalm], Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: Act 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

The faith OF Christ?

 

[Marcia]

Hi Tom;
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

If Christ had no faith we could never be justified because we are justified by His faith and not our own.
MB

I know I had a Bible that translates this "the faithfulness of Christ." We discussed this once in Sunday School Some believe that is how it should be translated.

Here the NET Bible note on Gal. 2:16; they translate it as "faithfulness":

Or “faith in Jesus Christ.” A decision is difficult here. Though traditionally translated “faith in Jesus Christ,” an increasing number of NT scholars are arguing that πίστις Χριστοῦ (pisti" Cristou) and similar phrases in Paul (here and in v. 20; Rom 3:22, 26; Gal 3:22; Eph 3:12; Phil 3:9) involve a subjective genitive and mean “Christ’s faith” or “Christ’s faithfulness” (cf., e.g., G. Howard, “The ‘Faith of Christ’,” ExpTim 85 [1974]: 212-15; R. B. Hays, The Faith of Jesus Christ [SBLDS]; Morna D. Hooker, “Πίστις Χριστοῦ,” NTS 35 [1989]: 321-42). Noteworthy among the arguments for the subjective genitive view is that when πίστις takes a personal genitive it is almost never an objective genitive (cf. Matt 9:2, 22, 29; Mark 2:5; 5:34; 10:52; Luke 5:20; 7:50; 8:25, 48; 17:19; 18:42; 22:32; Rom 1:8; 12; 3:3; 4:5, 12, 16; 1 Cor 2:5; 15:14, 17; 2 Cor 10:15; Phil 2:17; Col 1:4; 2:5; 1 Thess 1:8; 3:2, 5, 10; 2 Thess 1:3; Titus 1:1; Phlm 6; 1 Pet 1:9, 21; 2 Pet 1:5). On the other hand, the objective genitive view has its adherents: A. Hultgren, “The Pistis Christou Formulations in Paul,” NovT 22 (1980): 248-63; J. D. G. Dunn, “Once More, ΠΙΣΤΙΣ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΥ,” SBL Seminar Papers, 1991, 730-44. Most commentaries on Romans and Galatians usually side with the objective view.

sn On the phrase translated the faithfulness of Christ, ExSyn 116, which notes that the grammar is not decisive, nevertheless suggests that “the faith/faithfulness of Christ is not a denial of faith in Christ as a Pauline concept (for the idea is expressed in many of the same contexts, only with the verb πιστεύω rather than the noun), but implies that the object of faith is a worthy object, for he himself is faithful.” Though Paul elsewhere teaches justification by faith, this presupposes that the object of our faith is reliable and worthy of such faith.

 

[Jim1999]

If you consider that Jesus does not have faith, but IS the essence of faith you will find all those verses make sense.

He is the God-man and does not change.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[DHK]

If you consider that Jesus does not have faith, but IS the essence of faith you will find all those verses make sense.

He is the God-man and does not change.

Cheers,

Jim

I am the Lord, I change not.
Jesus Christ, the same; yesterday, today, and forever.

But what do those verses mean? They speak to the nature of God.
If Christ did not "change" so to speak, there would have been no incarnation. There would have been no "God-man," for there was no "God-man," before Christ was born. Before that time God existed in spirit only--the triune Godhead; not in body. Two thousand years ago there was a change. God, the Word, became man, and dwelt among us, and John states, "we beheld his glory." That was a definite change.

In that change, while he was still on earth there were times in his life where he did not use his divine attributes, and like other men, exercised faith in others. He didn't have to, but he did.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

If Jesus never had the opportunity to exercise faith as we do, then how could the above verse be true??

 

[Aaron]

I can agree with that. As an infant, the baby was dependent on others for everything.

Hey, Aaron, wanna chase another rabbit?

Nah. I wanna savor the unity for a moment. . .

OK. Moment's over.

 

[Tom Butler]

Nah. I wanna savor the unity for a moment. . .

OK. Moment's over.

Wasn't it nice while it lasted, though?

 

[Jim1999]

It is hard for us to even begin to comprehend the triune God, let alone fully understand the man Jesus. He never lost His deity whilst speaking and moving about as a man, but voluntarily surrendered to the Father. As He prayed , "Nevertheless, not my will, but Thine be done." The eternal plan cannot be thwarted.

Jesus, as the man, used divine knowledge when dealing with the woman about to be stoned. He knew her history. He knew all about Zacheus, who climbed the tree to see Jesus. There many instances when He exercised His divine knowledge as He travelled.

To fulfil the demands for redemptive acts, it was essential for the human aspect of Jesus' life to face the forefront.

As the essence of faith, He fully understood the requirements of the Father, and could impart the action of faith to those who would believe. He did not need faith to walk on water, but Peter did.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[DHK]

To fulfil the demands for redemptive acts, it was essential for the human aspect of Jesus' life to face the forefront.

As the essence of faith, He fully understood the requirements of the Father, and could impart the action of faith to those who would believe. He did not need faith to walk on water, but Peter did.

Cheers,

Jim

Absolutely. I agree with everything you said. But that is not the question before us. You are avoiding it. The question is: Did Jesus at any time in his life here on earth, have (or use) faith. The answer is yes. It must be yes at least before he started his ministry. He was totally dependent upon his parents and submitted to them as a child. That requires faith. Any parent will agree to that. He had to submit to them. They did not submit to an infant. The infant/child required faith in his parents. At the same time He was God. At no time in history, even in the womb, did He give up his divinity. But did he exercise faith. Of course he did. As a human he had to. We can't look at this all one-sided. As a man he was tempted in all points such as we are. That means in the area of faith and belief or unbelief as well. It is not that he ever did not believe, but he was tempted in that area.

 

[Marcia]

I am the Lord, I change not.
Jesus Christ, the same; yesterday, today, and forever.

But what do those verses mean? They speak to the nature of God.
If Christ did not "change" so to speak, there would have been no incarnation. There would have been no "God-man," for there was no "God-man," before Christ was born. Before that time God existed in spirit only--the triune Godhead; not in body. Two thousand years ago there was a change. God, the Word, became man, and dwelt among us, and John states, "we beheld his glory." That was a definite change.

In that change, while he was still on earth there were times in his life where he did not use his divine attributes, and like other men, exercised faith in others. He didn't have to, but he did.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

If Jesus never had the opportunity to exercise faith as we do, then how could the above verse be true??

I did not have faith in my parents as an infant or child - I think it's an automatic thing for children to depend on parents - they have no choice. So I would not use that as an analogy. That is not what I think of as faith when I am thinking of biblical faith.

Jesus did not need faith - he and His Father were in constant communion and communication. What would he need faith in? He knew what was going to happen to him - he predicted it several times. I don't think he had faith because it's a contradiction to me that the Son of God, being God, would need faith in God.

 

[Winman]

I still don't understand why this is so difficult, the scriptures say Jesus trusted his Father.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

The word commend in Luke 23:46 is defined as "entrusted", it is the same exact word translated as commit in several other verses where it is understood to mean trust.

1 Tim 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

2 Tim 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

1 Pet 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

One doesn't have to wonder if Jesus exercised faith, the scriptures say so.

You can see another example of Jesus exercising faith in his Father in the garden.

Matt 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Jesus is expressing trust in his Father here, saying that if necessary he could pray or call on his Father and he knew he would send angels if requested. This is faith or trust, relying upon another.

Even the Jews themselves knew Jesus had faith.

Matt 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

The Jews understood what faith is, it is relying on another. Faith is not a feeling, although most associate it with feeling. Faith is confidence or belief that a person can safely rely on another. You can know when you have trusted. When you go to the bank and deposit money, you are expressing faith that they will keep it safely for you and that you can return and withdraw it later. This is placing the keeping of your money into someone else's hands or control. When Jesus gave up his ghost on the cross, he entrusted his spirit into his Father's hands and relied upon the Father to raise him from the dead.

 

[Marcia]

I still don't understand why this is so difficult, the scriptures say Jesus trusted his Father.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

The word commend in Luke 23:46 is defined as "entrusted", it is the same exact word translated as commit in several other verses where it is understood to mean trust.

1 Tim 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

2 Tim 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

1 Pet 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

One doesn't have to wonder if Jesus exercised faith, the scriptures say so.

You can see another example of Jesus exercising faith in his Father in the garden.

Matt 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Jesus is expressing trust in his Father here, saying that if necessary he could pray or call on his Father and he knew he would send angels if requested. This is faith or trust, relying upon another.

Even the Jews themselves knew Jesus had faith.

Matt 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

The Jews understood what faith is, it is relying on another.

The first verse is simply Jesus dying and giving his spirit over to the Father. I do not think this is the same as the faith we are supposed to have.

I don't see the verses using "commit" having anything to do with faith. And it's Paul writing those words. I think "commit" here is having to do with being dedicated or dedicating something.

I think Jesus knew that His father would send his angels if he asked; it was not a matter of faith.

Faith has to do with believing what you can't see or don't know fully. Jesus was in constant communion with the Father; he had come from the Father and knew all things.

Matt. 27:43 was said by those mocking Jesus and I don't think you can build a solid case using this verse.

Besides, I don't the verses used earlier in the thread support this view - since they are often translated and said to mean the "faithfulness of Christ" or "faith in Christ."

 

[Winman]

The first verse is simply Jesus dying and giving his spirit over to the Father. I do not think this is the same as the faith we are supposed to have.

I don't see the verses using "commit" having anything to do with faith. And it's Paul writing those words. I think "commit" here is having to do with being dedicated or dedicating something.

I think Jesus knew that His father would send his angels if he asked; it was not a matter of faith.

Faith has to do with believing what you can't see or don't know fully. Jesus was in constant communion with the Father; he had come from the Father and knew all things.

Matt. 27:43 was said by those mocking Jesus and I don't think you can build a solid case using this verse.

Besides, I don't the verses used earlier in the thread support this view - since they are often translated and said to mean the "faithfulness of Christ" or "faith in Christ."

Well, you can believe whatever you want, but Jesus by his own words placed his spirit into his Father's hands.

And the other verses I showed are showing the same thing.

1 Pet 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

This verse says to commit the keeping of your soul unto Jesus.

I get a little annoyed when people make faith to be some mystical, magical thing. It is not.

The scriptures even say Jesus trusted Judas.

Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

This verse is widely understood (and I agree) to be a prophesy concerning Judas betraying Jesus. Jesus trusted Judas, it was Judas that carried the bag of money. The money was placed in Judas's hands or control.

John 13:29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.

To trust someone means to rely upon someone. And faith can be misplaced. Look at all the hundreds of people who trusted Bernie Madoff with their money. Did they trust him? Yes. The fact that he took all their money does not take away the fact that they trusted or relied upon him. As I said before, trust is something you can know. It is not some magical, mystical force. When you allow your teenager to take the family car for the evening, you are trusting them to drive carefully and not get in an accident. This is faith, this is trust. We exercise faith all the time.

 

[DHK]

The first verse is simply Jesus dying and giving his spirit over to the Father. I do not think this is the same as the faith we are supposed to have.

I don't see the verses using "commit" having anything to do with faith. And it's Paul writing those words. I think "commit" here is having to do with being dedicated or dedicating something.

I think Jesus knew that His father would send his angels if he asked; it was not a matter of faith.

Faith has to do with believing what you can't see or don't know fully.

Many times Jesus didn't fully see or know. He deliberately put aside or did not use those attributes. You seem to be taking away from the humanity of Christ. He was fully man on this earth. He thirsted, and yet didn't have to. He hungered, and yet didn't have to. He had faith and yet didn't have to. In every way he experienced "mankind" but he didn't have to. He was tempted in all points such as we are, but he didn't have to. God became man, but he didn't have to. He did so, because he loved us, and loved us enough to pay the penalty for our sin.

 

[Jim1999]

No, He was the God-man. He voluntarily submitted Himself to human events but was never deprived of His divinity even in His humanity. Try reading the life of Christ without seeing the divine knowledge steering the way.

As I said before, we will never understand the God-man in our flesh. We think as humans and often fail in our spiritual understandings of scripture. The New Testament often makes clear Old Testament readings because the Old have been exposed to additional light or revelation. The same is true of Jesus, who was with the Father from the very eternity He dwells in. This is one of the reasons I always explain eternity as being just beyond our fleshly fingers. It is another realm, and yet even scripture in places talks about heaven UP there, and hell, below.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Winman]

No, He was the God-man. He voluntarily submitted Himself to human events but was never deprived of His divinity even in His humanity. Try reading the life of Christ without seeing the divine knowledge steering the way.

I don't know about that. Jesus died on the cross. Can God die?

 

[Tom Butler]

I don't know about that. Jesus died on the cross. Can God die?

The implications of this question are enormous.

If the answer is No, what does that say about Jesus? Do you mean to say that there were times in his earthly life when he wasn't God?

 

[Jim1999]

I believe everyone agreed there are certain mysteries to the Godhead, let alone to Jesus when He assumed humanity. This is one of those moments.

There was a period of darkness when Jesus gave up His human form. Perhaps that was the moment of transformation.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Tom Butler]

I believe everyone agreed there are certain mysteries to the Godhead, let alone to Jesus when He assumed humanity. This is one of those moments.

There was a period of darkness when Jesus gave up His human form. Perhaps that was the moment of transformation.

Cheers,

Jim

We can all agree on the first part. So any conclusion we draw must be drawn from what we know, recognizing that there are simply some things we don't know, or don't understand.

We simply can't understand about Jesus' dependency as a one-day-old child. We simply can't know about how Jesus could be God in the flesh as an infant and not know it. If he didn't know it then, when did he know it?

What about his power? When did he realize he had it?

Despite all these unanswered questions, I still contend that Jesus did not need faith. He had all power and all knowledge, and did not change.

He knew things because he had the the power to make them happen.

 

[Marcia]

I don't know about that. Jesus died on the cross. Can God die?

Jesus has always been God; it's a mystery as to how he could die as a man and still be God, but he did.

 

[Marcia]

Well, you can believe whatever you want, but Jesus by his own words placed his spirit into his Father's hands.

And the other verses I showed are showing the same thing.

1 Pet 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

This verse says to commit the keeping of your soul unto Jesus.

I get a little annoyed when people make faith to be some mystical, magical thing. It is not.

The scriptures even say Jesus trusted Judas.

Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

This verse is widely understood (and I agree) to be a prophesy concerning Judas betraying Jesus. Jesus trusted Judas, it was Judas that carried the bag of money. The money was placed in Judas's hands or control.

John 13:29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.

To trust someone means to rely upon someone. And faith can be misplaced. Look at all the hundreds of people who trusted Bernie Madoff with their money. Did they trust him? Yes. The fact that he took all their money does not take away the fact that they trusted or relied upon him. As I said before, trust is something you can know. It is not some magical, mystical force. When you allow your teenager to take the family car for the evening, you are trusting them to drive carefully and not get in an accident. This is faith, this is trust. We exercise faith all the time.

With all due respect, I think you are redefining the kind of faith that we are discussing. I do not consider my trust in a friend the same as faith in God. I would never say I have faith in my friend the way I say I have faith in God. And I don't see how Jesus commiting his soul to God is faith.

Why would Jesus need faith? This would imply that he was in the dark. I do not think this is true. Just because he said he didn't know the day or hour of his return doesn't mean he didn't know other things. I think that is the only instance in the Gospels where we know that Jesus does not know something. One instance - that's it. And I think he purposely chose not to know it.

Jesus had seen the Father - we never have. That is why it is faith for us.

Well, it's a thought provoking thread for sure.