Did Jesus Have Faith?

[Tom Butler]

Jesus knew he would be raised - by God, by the Holy Spirit, and by himself. The Trinity acts in concert here. Jesus did not have to have faith that he would raised!

I notice that the scriptures Marcia quoted to support her view were basically ignored, with the exception of the ones which say God raised Jesus from the dead.

Those ignored scriptures are fatal to the contention that Jesus exercised faith. When Jesus said "destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up," he was, of course, referring to himself. Clearly, Jesus is saying that he has the power to raise himself from the dead. And Marcia's conclusion adequately makes sense of those scriptures which attribute the resurrection to each member of the Godhead.

And we must remember that while the body of Jesus was in the tomb, the Son was very much alive, very much active.

To suggest that Jesus had faith in the Father (or the Spirit) is to suggest that he had less power than the other two--thus was not omnipotent.

Anyone who takes that line of argument is welcome to it and all its implications.

 

[DHK]

I notice that the scriptures Marcia quoted to support her view were basically ignored, with the exception of the ones which say God raised Jesus from the dead.

Those ignored scriptures are fatal to the contention that Jesus exercised faith. When Jesus said "destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up," he was, of course, referring to himself. Clearly, Jesus is saying that he has the power to raise himself from the dead. And Marcia's conclusion adequately makes sense of those scriptures which attribute the resurrection to each member of the Godhead.

And we must remember that while the body of Jesus was in the tomb, the Son was very much alive, very much active.

To suggest that Jesus had faith in the Father (or the Spirit) is to suggest that he had less power than the other two--thus was not omnipotent.

Anyone who takes that line of argument is welcome to it and all its implications.

You are right here Tom. This is an example of his deity, not his humanity.

 

[percho]

I notice that the scriptures Marcia quoted to support her view were basically ignored, with the exception of the ones which say God raised Jesus from the dead.

Those ignored scriptures are fatal to the contention that Jesus exercised faith. When Jesus said "destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up," he was, of course, referring to himself. Clearly, Jesus is saying that he has the power to raise himself from the dead. And Marcia's conclusion adequately makes sense of those scriptures which attribute the resurrection to each member of the Godhead.

And we must remember that while the body of Jesus was in the tomb, the Son was very much alive, very much active.

To suggest that Jesus had faith in the Father (or the Spirit) is to suggest that he had less power than the other two--thus was not omnipotent.

Anyone who takes that line of argument is welcome to it and all its implications.

Rom. 8:11 of him who raised
he who raised
will also give through
1Cr 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

Using Marcia's way then the Holy Spirit would have been the Father of Jesus instead of God the Father or Jesus would be his own Father.
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

John 2:19 Lets look at some of Jesus's thoughts on this subject.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; How?
Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Now if you say 1 Cor. 6:14 contradicts John 5:21 here is why it dosn't.

Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear

 

[Marcia]

To discuss the topic "Did Jesus Have Faith," we must come to an agreement on what faith is. So far I don't see that. Faith is not relegated to the realm of redemption. It's grasp reaches far beyond the metaphysical. We trust one another. I may trust your understanding on the cults and trust your answer on a question that you give me, rather than a RCC site. Why? I know you (from this board). Some people have more faith and trust in their government than they have in their family. Sad but true.

If you were to write a check to your pastor, and another to a beggar who just walked in from off the street, which one would you trust to pay you back. Why? Faith is also dependent on relationship.
Faith is not blind.
Faith always has an object.
Faith is based on facts.
Biblical faith is based on the facts of the Bible--the gospel
Faith in everyday life is based on the facts of the ones that we know, how well we know them. It is not blind.

Here is one of the best examples of faith in Scripture:
Concerning Abraham, Paul writes:

Romans 4:20-21 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Faith is being fully persuaded that what God has promised God will perform.

However outside of the Bible, I can also be fully persuaded that my wife will have supper ready for me when I get home. That is because I know her; I have lived with her many years; I can depend on her.
But unlike God, my wife will fail for she is human. She may become sick. There may be other circumstances that get in the way. Does that destroy my faith? No. I realize my wife, like all others, is fallible. But God is infallible and never breaks his promise.

Did Jesus have faith? If Jesus never exercised faith, then how could he not have been fully man. He was the God-man: fully God and fully man at the same time. Let us not take away from his humanity and say that Jesus could not have faith. He was the perfect son of man, as Luke portrays Him.

I agree with you that biblical faith is not blind. I hate the saying, "blind faith" (not sure of origin) and "leap of faith" (Kierkegaard).

I may trust people up to a point but I do not have total faith in anyone on earth.

So if Jesus had faith, in whom did he have it? I certainly do not see biblical support for Jesus having faith in men (though Rob Bell disagrees with me on that).

I do not deny the fully humanity of Jesus (in fact, I've argued on the BB against the view that Jesus did not have Mary's DNA) but I am not convinced that Jesus had to exercise faith to be fully man. He did not have to sin to be fully man. He did not have to marry or experience some physical things people experience to be fully man. He was man, but he was also different than other men because of his deity. I do not deny the full humanity of Jesus.

And why would Jesus need faith in God, since he is part of the Trinity? There is no need for him to have faith. Though a man, his deity was never laid aside.

 

[Marcia]

Rom. 8:11 of him who raised
he who raised
will also give through
1Cr 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

Using Marcia's way then the Holy Spirit would have been the Father of Jesus instead of God the Father or Jesus would be his own Father.
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

John 2:19 Lets look at some of Jesus's thoughts on this subject.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; How?
Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Now if you say 1 Cor. 6:14 contradicts John 5:21 here is why it dosn't.

Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear

You can't deny the plain meaning of these verses:

Jesus answered them, " Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." John 2:19

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Rom. 8:11

They state that Jesus raised himself up and the Holy Spirit raised him up. Along with verses that God raised Jesus, we see the Trinity working as one here.

 

[DHK]

I agree with you that biblical faith is not blind. I hate the saying, "blind faith" (not sure of origin) and "leap of faith" (Kierkegaard).

I may trust people up to a point but I do not have total faith in anyone on earth.

You are not a very trusting person.
Putting aside faith in God, and Christ's omniscience (for he suffered as a man), I believe that when he said:

John 19:26-27 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

He humanly had total faith that John would take care of Mary. He was not exercising any divine attribute at this time. He had faith in John that he could carry out this task.

If you have had children then you know that when they are young they put "total faith" in their parents to provide for them--food, shelter, clothing, protection, etc. They will not put their faith in a stranger to do that, but rather cling to the ones that they know--their parents. That is an example of faith. Jesus said: Except ye be as little children ye cannot enter the kingdom of God. This is what he meant. He was using them as an example of their simple faith and trust in another.

Why is it hard for you to totally trust another (not for everything) but in some areas of your life?
I totally trust (have faith in) my parents that they will always be there for me; that they will never disown me; never turn their backs on me; and love me unconditionally. Can you say that?

 

[Marcia]

You are not a very trusting person.

Whether I am or not, it's irrelevant. And I see no commands in the Bible to trust men.

Putting aside faith in God, and Christ's omniscience (for he suffered as a man), I believe that when he said:

John 19:26-27 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

He humanly had total faith that John would take care of Mary. He was not exercising any divine attribute at this time. He had faith in John that he could carry out this task.

I disagree. I think he knew that John would take of Mary. I don't see how you can see he was not exercising any divine attribute. I don't see why Jesus' ability to see how John would take care of Mary would not have been in place then.

If you have had children then you know that when they are young they put "total faith" in their parents to provide for them--food, shelter, clothing, protection, etc. They will not put their faith in a stranger to do that, but rather cling to the ones that they know--their parents. That is an example of faith. Jesus said: Except ye be as little children ye cannot enter the kingdom of God. This is what he meant. He was using them as an example of their simple faith and trust in another.

I thought the OP was more along the lines of Jesus having faith in God anyway. Here's the OP question:

So the question before the board is, did Jesus have faith? Or, did he need faith. Did Jesus have to trust the Father to raise him from the dead? Does the Creator of the Universe, who has all power, have to have faith?

I totally trust (have faith in) my parents that they will always be there for me; that they will never disown me; never turn their backs on me; and love me unconditionally. Can you say that?

My parents are dead and no, I could not always trust them.

 

[Tom Butler]

You are not a very trusting person.
Putting aside faith in God, and Christ's omniscience (for he suffered as a man), I believe that when he said:

John 19:26-27 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

He humanly had total faith that John would take care of Mary. He was not exercising any divine attribute at this time. He had faith in John that he could carry out this task.

If you have had children then you know that when they are young they put "total faith" in their parents to provide for them--food, shelter, clothing, protection, etc. They will not put their faith in a stranger to do that, but rather cling to the ones that they know--their parents. That is an example of faith. Jesus said: Except ye be as little children ye cannot enter the kingdom of God. This is what he meant. He was using them as an example of their simple faith and trust in another.

Why is it hard for you to totally trust another (not for everything) but in some areas of your life?
I totally trust (have faith in) my parents that they will always be there for me; that they will never disown me; never turn their backs on me; and love me unconditionally. Can you say that?

I'll leave it to Marcia to answer for herself, but I'd like to comment on one thing.Jesus' appointment of John to take care of his mother was not an act of faith. I suspect Jesus knew exactly what he was doing as an aspect of his omniscience, which I don't believe he laid aside.

I don't believe it's possible for Jesus to choose what he will or won't know. He either is omniscient or he's not. To say that, as a human, he is not is to undermine his place in the Godhead.

Now, when my children were young, they thought I knew everything. Sometimes they'd ask a question I couldn't answer. Daddy, I thought you knew everything. I do, I replied, but I don't know that.

I don't' think it's possible that Jesus knew everything, but he didn't know that.

 

[DHK]

I'll leave it to Marcia to answer for herself, but I'd like to comment on one thing.Jesus' appointment of John to take care of his mother was not an act of faith. I suspect Jesus knew exactly what he was doing as an aspect of his omniscience, which I don't believe he laid aside.

I don't believe it's possible for Jesus to choose what he will or won't know. He either is omniscient or he's not. To say that, as a human, he is not is to undermine his place in the Godhead.

Or he either was human or he was not.

What did he mean when he said:

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Is it not obvious that as man he laid aside his attribute of omniscience for a season?

Is it not obvious when he went to the cross, rebuked Peter for drawing a sword, and told him that he could have called 12 legions of angels to rescue him, that he laid aside his omnipotence for a season?

Is it not obvious that when he confined himself to the area that we call Israel, that he laid aside his attribute of omnipresence.

Is it not obvious that God became man--the incarnation, and in doing so he kept control of some divine attributes which he chose not to use.

 

[Marcia]

Or he either was human or he was not.

What did he mean when he said:

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Is it not obvious that as man he laid aside his attribute of omniscience for a season?

Or maybe just for that question. This is the only place in the NT that I can think of where we see Jesus saying he did not know something, But there are quite a few passages that show us Jesus knew what people were thinking and he predicted his own death and resurrection. So clearly he did not lay aside omniscience all the time. I think he knew John would take care of his mother, as I said above. That was not an act of faith and there is no evidence that it was.

Is it not obvious when he went to the cross, rebuked Peter for drawing a sword, and told him that he could have called 12 legions of angels to rescue him, that he laid aside his omnipotence for a season?

I think he chose not use his omnipotence; that does not mean he didn't have it to use.

Is it not obvious that when he confined himself to the area that we call Israel, that he laid aside his attribute of omnipresence.

Physically, of course, he could not be in more than one place at a time. But this is not evidence that he did not know the future at most points (all except that one incident, in fact).

Is it not obvious that God became man--the incarnation, and in doing so he kept control of some divine attributes which he chose not to use

This does not mean Jesus had to have faith in God, which is the topic of the OP as I understand it.

 

[Amy.G]

Marcia;1490163This is the only place in the NT that I can think of where we see Jesus saying he did not know something,

Here is another.

Luk 8:45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press [thee], and sayest thou, Who touched me?
Luk 8:46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.

 

[DHK]

This does not mean Jesus had to have faith in God, which is the topic of the OP as I understand it.

You are answering a different OP than I am.
I am not speaking of faith in God, but simply "faith"
The OP:

So the question before the board is, did Jesus have faith? Or, did he need faith. Did Jesus have to trust the Father to raise him from the dead? Does the Creator of the Universe, who has all power, have to have faith?

Did Jesus have faith; not necessarily faith in God, just "faith," as we might have faith in one another. Faith has many applications. First define faith. Faith is not confined to "faith in God." It never was.

 

[Marcia]

Here is another.

Luk 8:45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press [thee], and sayest thou, Who touched me?
Luk 8:46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.

This does not mean he did not know who touched him. Remember, there is something similar in the OT when God asked Adam where he was. I'm sure you don't think God didn't know. There are other examples.

 

[Marcia]

You are answering a different OP than I am.
I am not speaking of faith in God, but simply "faith"
The OP:

Did Jesus have faith; not necessarily faith in God, just "faith," as we might have faith in one another. Faith has many applications. First define faith. Faith is not confined to "faith in God." It never was.

I understood the OP to be talking mainly about Jesus having faith in God:

OP POST

In another thread, Winman posted this:
Quote:
Do you not see here what believing or trust is? Jesus did not fight death. He gave up and died and trusted his soul into the hands of his Father. He let himself die, and trusted and depended that the Father would raise him from the dead as he promised.

This is the perfect example of faith. It is giving up, it is letting go, it is surrendering yourself into the care of another. It is not a work, it is a ceasing of work.

But Jesus still did something, he allowed himself to die. But that action was a result of his faith. If he did not believe his Father would raise him from the dead, he would have fought to the last breath to live, or come down by his own power.
So the question before the board is, did Jesus have faith? Or, did he need faith. Did Jesus have to trust the Father to raise him from the dead? Does the Creator of the Universe, who has all power, have to have faith?

It seems to be asking if Jesus had faith that God would raise him from the dead.

 

[DHK]

I understood the OP to be talking mainly about Jesus having faith in God:

OP POST


It seems to be asking if Jesus had faith that God would raise him from the dead.

I disagreed with Winman, and think that that was a bad illustration to use. I don't see that the OP is limiting "faith" to faith in God, but exploring it to include a variety of usages. Hence the word "or". There are many different questions in the OP. The first couple are fairly direct. Did Jesus need faith (not faith in God).

 

[Marcia]

I disagreed with Winman, and think that that was a bad illustration to use. I don't see that the OP is limiting "faith" to faith in God, but exploring it to include a variety of usages. Hence the word "or". There are many different questions in the OP. The first couple are fairly direct. Did Jesus need faith (not faith in God).

No, I do not think Jesus needed faith.

 

[DHK]

No, I do not think Jesus needed faith.

Look at the title of the thread?
Did Jesus "have" faith? God has "need" of nothing. So that is a misleading statement or answer that you gave.
But did Jesus have or exercise faith? I believe that is the question being asked. Is there evidence in the Bible that Jesus, as a man, exercised faith in his fellow man. And as I have given examples, I believe he did. I don't believe we can assume that he exercised his omniscience at all times.

 

[Tom Butler]

I am having trouble grasping the idea that God the Son, omniscient from the foundation of the world, knowing all things and the future actions of all men, becomes human and no longer knows the things he once knew.

Seems to me that knowing something in eternity, then not knowing it at some point, would represent a change, undermining his immutability. No, it would be more than undermining it--it would destroy it.

 

[percho]

Marcia

I understand that your approach is from a trinity concept and that is fine except sometime you have to seperate the Godhead. Lets look at Rom 8:11

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Spirit of him. Is this a ref. to 1,2 or 3 of the Godhead?
Jesus. 1,2 or 3?
he. 1,2 or 3?
Christ. 1,2,or 3?
his. 1,2 or 3?
or should it be his spirit? 1,2 or 3? that dwelleth in you.

Marcia and or Tom

Acts 2:32,33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear

Why would Jesus the Christ have to receive a promise like this? Would he not already have it? Just an interesting thought. When was this promise given?

 

[Tom Butler]

Marcia

I understand that your approach is from a trinity concept and that is fine except sometime you have to seperate the Godhead. Lets look at Rom 8:11

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Spirit of him. Is this a ref. to 1,2 or 3 of the Godhead?
Jesus. 1,2 or 3?
he. 1,2 or 3?
Christ. 1,2,or 3?
his. 1,2 or 3?
or should it be his spirit? 1,2 or 3? that dwelleth in you.

Marcia and or Tom

Acts 2:32,33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear

Why would Jesus the Christ have to receive a promise like this? Would he not already have it? Just an interesting thought. When was this promise given?

This is a difficult passage, not that God raised up Jesus, but the part regarding the promise of the Holy Spirit. Maybe someone can exegete it for me, to explain why Jesus needed the Holy Spirit.

I have had it hammered into me by my professors and my pastors that difficult passages must be interpreted in the light of clear, unequivocal scriptures. Since scripture does not array against itself, the Acts 2 passage must be measured against the nature and attributes of the Godhead--including omnipotence and omniscience.

So, instead of dueling scriptures supporting our views, can we measure those scriptures against those passages about which there is no doubt?