Did Jesus Have Faith?

[percho]

I suggest that Peter's reference to the "promise of the Holy Spirit" does not mean that God will send the Holy Spirit to the Son. I suggest that this means the promise of the Holy Spirit is meant for us.

John 14:16 And the Father will give you another Comforter..

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name.....

John 15; 26 But when the Comforter is come, which I will send unto you from the Father...

John 16:7 ...for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you, but if I depart I will send him unto you.

So God promises the Holy Spirit, and the Son promises the Holy Spirit, to be sent to the same recipients. The promise became a reality at Pentecost, and is a reality in the life of every believer.

No faith required here on the part of either the Father or the Son. This was determined in eternity by the Godhead, as Marcia has pointed out.

Tom
John 16:7 proves that Jesus had faith. The very fact he was telling them these things shows he had faith the Father would raise him and give him the things promised. I have never counted them but there are proberly 25 verses that say God implicating the Father that the Father raised Jesus from the dead. We have one verse about Jesus raising himself which even in itself is a statement of faith. I showed in John 5 that Jesus understood where his life comes from. This the Word who was made flesh saying only the Father had life inherent and that thru the resurrection he would give him this life.

The Word was made flesh and dwelt amoung us and they called his name Jesus. This Jesus said thay which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee ye must be born again.

Did this apply to Jesus also? I have posted many verses of him being born flesh.Another would be Rom. 1:3. There are many verses that speak of the resurrection as a birth, some I have quoted.

I might add if he would believe Gen. 2:7 and Gen. 2:17 as they are written then we would understand what these other verses say.

Yes from the foundation of the world when it was determined that the Son would be given the Word that became flesh did have would have and gives to us faith.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom
John 16:7 proves that Jesus had faith. The very fact he was telling them these things shows he had faith the Father would raise him and give him the things promised. I have never counted them but there are proberly 25 verses that say God implicating the Father that the Father raised Jesus from the dead. We have one verse about Jesus raising himself which even in itself is a statement of faith. I showed in John 5 that Jesus understood where his life comes from. This the Word who was made flesh saying only the Father had life inherent and that thru the resurrection he would give him this life.

The Word was made flesh and dwelt amoung us and they called his name Jesus. This Jesus said thay which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee ye must be born again.

Did this apply to Jesus also? I have posted many verses of him being born flesh.Another would be Rom. 1:3. There are many verses that speak of the resurrection as a birth, some I have quoted.

I might add if he would believe Gen. 2:7 and Gen. 2:17 as they are written then we would understand what these other verses say.

Yes from the foundation of the world when it was determined that the Son would be given the Word that became flesh did have would have and gives to us faith.

Sorry, perchco, you just can't make flat statements and say they are proof that Jesus had faith. Are you sure you want to adopt the same theological view as the Word of Faith heresy?

 

[Winman]

He didn't believe it; he knew it. There is a difference. There are several passages in the NT where Jesus predicts his death and resurrection. He also said he would raise himself up, at least twice: one I already quoted twice here, and again here in John 10:

False doctrine!? It's false doctrine to believe Jesus did not have faith! That is really going too far. Also, you are assuming a lot about me without even knowing me. No one ever told me that Jesus did not have faith or he did. The first time I saw it as an issue was with Rob Bell while reading "Velvet Elvis," where he writes that Jesus had faith in Peter to walk on the water.

Please don't lecture me. I say this myself all the time in my ministry. I am using scripture. You are overstepping boundaries here, implying that because I do not think Jesus had faith, that I am going against scripture.

I already responded to this, and others agree with me on this.

Yes, this is a prophecy. Jesus knew he would be resurrected; he predicted it in the Gospels; and furthermore, Jesus raised himself. I posted scriptures at least twice on this.

No, it's not difficult. I just disagree.

Well Marcia, all I can do is once again show you that the scriptures clearly show Jesus had faith in his Father. When he died on the cross he cried out, "into thy hands I commend my spirit". Now, that is a trusting, that is placing something that is yours in someone's else's hands to keep and care for. It is just like when you deposit money in a bank, or loan someone your car trusting them not to wreck it.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Could Jesus have stayed alive on the cross? Yes. Could he have gotten himself down or called on angels to save him? Yes. But he willingly died, he died much sooner than the two malefactors who were crucified with him. And he placed the keeping and care of his spirit into his Father's hands. I don't know how it can be any clearer than this.

When Jesus said this on the cross, he was quoting Psalms 31:5. That whole Psalms is about trust.

Psa 31:1 [To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.] In thee, O LORD, do I put my trust; let me never be ashamed: deliver me in thy righteousness.
2 Bow down thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be thou my strong rock, for an house of defence to save me.
3 For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me.
4 Pull me out of the net that they have laid privily for me: for thou art my strength.
5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.
6 I have hated them that regard lying vanities: but I trust in the LORD.
7 I will be glad and rejoice in thy mercy: for thou hast considered my trouble; thou hast known my soul in adversities;
8 And hast not shut me up into the hand of the enemy: thou hast set my feet in a large room.
9 Have mercy upon me, O LORD, for I am in trouble: mine eye is consumed with grief, yea, my soul and my belly.
10 For my life is spent with grief, and my years with sighing: my strength faileth because of mine iniquity, and my bones are consumed.
11 I was a reproach among all mine enemies, but especially among my neighbours, and a fear to mine acquaintance: they that did see me without fled from me.
12 I am forgotten as a dead man out of mind: I am like a broken vessel.
13 For I have heard the slander of many: fear was on every side: while they took counsel together against me, they devised to take away my life.
14 But I trusted in thee, O LORD: I said, Thou art my God.
15 My times are in thy hand: deliver me from the hand of mine enemies, and from them that persecute me.
16 Make thy face to shine upon thy servant: save me for thy mercies' sake.
17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.
18 Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.
19 Oh how great is thy goodness, which thou hast laid up for them that fear thee; which thou hast wrought for them that trust in thee before the sons of men!
20 Thou shalt hide them in the secret of thy presence from the pride of man: thou shalt keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues.
21 Blessed be the LORD: for he hath shewed me his marvellous kindness in a strong city.
22 For I said in my haste, I am cut off from before thine eyes: nevertheless thou heardest the voice of my supplications when I cried unto thee.
23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.
24 Be of good courage, and he shall strengthen your heart, all ye that hope in the LORD.

This Psalm shows what faith is. It is a relying, a depending upon another. And this is what Jesus did, he placed his spirit into his Father's hands.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Jesus had as much faith in His Father as His Father had faith in Him. Both covenanted with each other for the redemption of the elect children of God, and the Father trusted His Son to go thru the sufferings and humiliations of the cross, as much as the Son trusted the Father to see Him thru death and to resurrect Him which the Holy Spirit did.

So any faith which had anything at all to do with God's people in as far as their redemption is concerned is Christ's faith.

Galatians 2:20 (plus a couple more)-" I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live ; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

 

[pinoybaptist]

I wonder why this is even discussed.
If Jesus had no faith, and He is the Source of all, then we have no faith.
It is He who imparts everything to His people, and if He had nothing to impart, what do we have ?
15 pages and 145 posts !!
whoooeee !!!

 

[percho]

I give up. Uncle

 

[Marcia]

Well Marcia, all I can do is once again show you that the scriptures clearly show Jesus had faith in his Father. When he died on the cross he cried out, "into thy hands I commend my spirit". Now, that is a trusting, that is placing something that is yours in someone's else's hands to keep and care for. It is just like when you deposit money in a bank, or loan someone your car trusting them not to wreck it.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

And all I can do is repeat that I don't see how this is having faith. That is how you are reading it. Nothing here shows he was not sure or did not know what would happen. In fact, scripture shows us that Jesus did know what would happen! He predicted his resurrection several times!

 

[Tom Butler]

And all I can do is repeat that I don't see how this is having faith. That is how you are reading it. Nothing here shows he was not sure or did not know what would happen. In fact, scripture shows us that Jesus did know what would happen! He predicted his resurrection several times!

Marcia, maybe the problem in this discussion is how others define faith and to whom they apply that definition. Now, you and I believe that it is true that Jesus died on the cross for sinners. We also believe the message of the gospel, and have repented and trusted Christ for our salvation. We have staked our spiritual future on our conviction that it is true. Although we are convinced that the gospel is true, and we are convinced that Jesus will return one day, we cannot know this in and of ourselves, because the power to make it happen is not ours.

On the other hand, it is within the power of the Godhead to make happen what it wills. As a result of that power, it's not a matter of faith that the Godhead knows the future actions of men--or each other for that matter.

Knowledge and faith are not the same thing. In the case of the Trinity, knowledge and power are intertwined.

Knowledge and power, and faith, are mutually exclusive.

 

[Winman]

Knowledge and power, and faith, are mutually exclusive.

I don't know if knowledge and faith exclude each other, there are many scriptures that show otherwise.

Matt 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Jesus demonstrated to many people he was the Son of God by miracles he performed. Did this exclude them from believing on him?

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

This was the blind man whom Jesus healed. Jesus met him afterward and revealed his identity to the man. The man knew as well as any many could that Jesus was Christ, he had been healed by him. Yet he believed.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The scriptures say we can know we have eternal life, yet we can also believe.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

All men know of God whether they want to admit it or not, the creation itself declares him. We do not live in a vacuum, we are not without evidence of God. This does not exclude us from believing.

By your concept the apostles could not believe in Jesus. Peter, James, and John saw Jesus transfigured before them, they saw him in his glory, they heard the Father speak to him. Yet they could believe.

Luke 9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

By your concept, Peter, James, and John could not have faith. They saw Jesus in his glory, they did not have to wonder if Jesus was the Son of God. They did not have to believe in God either, they heard his voice.

 

[percho]

I just can't give up.

Marcia, I voted both in the other thread. How did you vote?

If you voted yes was it this sin of Adam that brought both to all mankind and or all living things?

BY the way I'm not asking to see if you think life other than man can spiritualy die.

 

[Marcia]

I just can't give up.

Marcia, I voted both in the other thread. How did you vote?

What thread? You mean the thread I started on whether sin brought spiritual or physical death, or both?

If you voted yes was it this sin of Adam that brought both to all mankind and or all living things?

BY the way I'm not asking to see if you think life other than man can spiritualy die.

I voted that sin brought both physical and spiritual death.

 

[Tom Butler]

Winman, in passages you cited, believe and know are different things and mentioned separately.

We human believers use those terms almost interchangeably in some cases.
When the preacher says "all right, if you know you're going to heaven, raise your hand." Actually, when we raise our hands, we are saying that we have a firm conviction--a strong belief--that we will go to heaven. We have placed our trust--our faith--in the promise of the gospels.

But that can't apply to the Godhead. Jesus has more than a strong conviction of true things--he had knowledge based on his omniscience, based on his omnipotence. And, according to Peter in Acts 2:23, based on the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God. I submit that the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God involved all of the Godhead in eternity.

To me, that has eliminated the concept of faith on the part of God the Son.

 

[percho]

I understand the literal thanslation of thou shall surely die should be as in Young's, "dying thou dost die". In other words, when you die you will be dead.

Christ died for our sins both physical and spiritual. To be very clear I think He, that is all of Him was dead three days and three nights. Physical and spiritual.
Without life.

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

When do you think the Father (gives) to the Son this life? Why would he even have to give the Son life inherent?

I also think that when the the Word was with God and the Word was God that the Word had inherent life but when the Word became flesh for the very purpose of death I do not think he had life inherent and had Faith God the Father would restore him to the glory he had with him before the world was.

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Did not add.

 

[Marcia]

I understand the literal thanslation of thou shall surely die should be as in Young's, "dying thou dost die". In other words, when you die you will be dead.

Christ died for our sins both physical and spiritual. To be very clear I think He, that is all of Him was dead three days and three nights. Physical and spiritual.
Without life.

Are you saying that Jesus was without consciousness for 3 days and nights??

Please clarify. This is a very serious statement as it would indicate you possibly believe in soul sleep.

 

[Marcia]

Winman, in passages you cited, believe and know are different things and mentioned separately.

We human believers use those terms almost interchangeably in some cases.
When the preacher says "all right, if you know you're going to heaven, raise your hand." Actually, when we raise our hands, we are saying that we have a firm conviction--a strong belief--that we will go to heaven. We have placed our trust--our faith--in the promise of the gospels.

But that can't apply to the Godhead. Jesus has more than a strong conviction of true things--he had knowledge based on his omniscience, based on his omnipotence. And, according to Peter in Acts 2:23, based on the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God. I submit that the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God involved all of the Godhead in eternity.

To me, that has eliminated the concept of faith on the part of God the Son.

Very well put, Tom. I agree.

 

[percho]

That is what I am saying. He was dead. You said in the poll thread that maybe good to have a thread about if Adam was created immortal or not.
If you remember I posted in this thread about understanding Gen. 2:7 and Gen 2:17 and should have added Gen. 3:22.

I would post them again but I don't think anyone is reading any text I post
to back up my thinking anyway. I guess Jesus was dead a nanosecond to pay for our spiritual death but was in the heart of the earth three days to pay for our physical death.

 

[Marcia]

That is what I am saying. He was dead.

What do you mean by dead? Unconscious for 3 days?

You said in the poll thread that maybe good to have a thread about if Adam was created immortal or not.
If you remember I posted in this thread about understanding Gen. 2:7 and Gen 2:17 and should have added Gen. 3:22.
.

Well, yes, if you want to start a thread on whether Adam was created immortal, you can do that, but you would start another thread. You wouldn't bring it up here on this thread.

I would post them again but I don't think anyone is reading any text I post to back up my thinking anyway. I guess Jesus was dead a nanosecond to pay for our spiritual death but was in the heart of the earth three days to pay for our physical death

Okay, so you're saying Jesus' body was in the earth 3 days. I agree with that. So now I'm confused about what you are saying, percho.

 

[percho]

What do you mean by dead? Unconscious for 3 days?



Well, yes, if you want to start a thread on whether Adam was created immortal, you can do that, but you would start another thread. You wouldn't bring it up here on this thread.




Okay, so you're saying Jesus' body was in the earth 3 days. I agree with that. So now I'm confused about what you are saying, percho.

Yes Unconscious Dead

Adam was created a living soul not an immortal soul. Gen 2:7
In dying thou dost die. Young's Lit. translation Gen 2:17 My translation of Young (When you die you will be dead)
Now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Gen. 3:22 So he can't become an immortal sinner. God guarded the way to the tree of life.

The Word became flesh, took on the nature of man FOR the purpose of death.
I can give ch and verse if necessary

 

[Tom Butler]

Let me make sure I understand. The human body of Jesus died and lay in the tomb. And God the Son also died? The second person of he Trinity also died? I'll have to say that if that's what you are saying, this is a totally new doctrine which I have not heard before.

That would mean that Paul, with regard to Jesus, could not have said, "absent from the body, present with the Lord." Human bodies can die, but the human soul does not. In the case of God the Son, both died? Is that what you're saying?

 

[percho]

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality

Who is this talking about? Adam, you, me. If there is anything immortal about you and I then we are immortal and the above verse is false. What does immortal mean?

The word of God states in more than one place that the main purpose for the Word to become flesh was to die.

1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

Why are these words grouped together. This isn't just talking about the body.
It's talking about a persons John, Sally, Bob living souls.