Did Jesus take on the wrath of God as propitiation for our sin?

[Aaron]

An example of what Jesus received from God is found as a foreshadowing in Exodus 17:2-7.

In this foreshadowing, the staff of judgment falls upon the rock, not the people. Paul tells us that Jesus is that Rock.

Jesus took the strike deserved for us. What we receive, instead of judgment, is the life giving water of God's grace.

Therefore the people quarreled with Moses and said, “Give us water to drink.” And Moses said to them, “Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you test the Lord?” But the people thirsted there for water, and the people grumbled against Moses and said, “Why did you bring us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our livestock with thirst?” So Moses cried to the Lord, “What shall I do with this people? They are almost ready to stone me.” And the Lord said to Moses, “Pass on before the people, taking with you some of the elders of Israel, and take in your hand the staff with which you struck the Nile, and go. Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water shall come out of it, and the people will drink.” And Moses did so, in the sight of the elders of Israel. And he called the name of the place Massah and Meribah, because of the quarreling of the people of Israel, and because they tested the Lord by saying, “Is the Lord among us or not?”

1 Corinthians 10:1-4

For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

Yes, another eminent picture that I had overlooked.

The Ark, the Offerings, the Rock...

 

[canadyjd]

….

Scripture teaches God will not substitute the Just for the unjust, condemn the innocent, transfer sins, subject His righteous to wrath, and is not manipulated by men. This alone proves your theory incorrect.

1 Peter 3:18

“For Christ suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God….”

Believe God’s Word

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Yes, another eminent picture that I had overlooked.

The Ark, the Offerings, the Rock...

Not really. You (and @AustinC ) read into Scripture.

I could say Moses striking the rock symbolizes Israel's rejection of the Cornerstone, of the Jews handing Christ over to suffer and die at tge hands of the wicked.

At least the illustration would be accurate (Scripture tells us it was tge evil of the World that caused Christ to suffer and die, and this was God's will).

But that, too, would be using Scripture rather than dervinf doctrine from Scripture.

The Ark is the same. Somebody (I can't remember who) equated the people downing as the wrath that we escape. They miss that Noah was not sinless.

 

[Aaron]

I think you meant that Jesus took the strike that we deserved. And this is true. If you meant Jesus took the strike instead of us, that would be adding to Scripture (there is only One "Spiritual Rock").

'He got what I deserved, but that doesn't mean He got it instead of me!'

I have a word for you: Paraphrase. Something the Apostles often did when quoing the OT, those scoundrels!

 

[JonC]

1 Peter 3:18

“For Christ suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God….”

Believe God’s Word

peace to you

Exactly. I have used that passage several times on this board.


And good point. This dying for our dins, the Just for the unjust, was HAVING BEEN PUT TO DEATH IN THE FLESH, BUT MADE ALIVE IN THE SPIRIT.

That alone is enough to prove Penal Substitution Theory a false doctrine.

1 Peter 3:17–22 For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong. For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;


Believe God's Word.

 

[JonC]

'He got what I deserved, but that doesn't mean He got it instead of me!'

I have a word for you: Paraphrase. Something the Apostles often did when quoing the OT, those scoundrels!

Yes.

He shared in our infirmity.....we deserve the infirmity......He doesn't.

 

[Aaron]

So God does plan to impose His wrath on the lost. Yet there are those who would have us believe that in order to make our sins right that wrath just goes away.

They imply that wrath is not a just due of the sinner, since, they say, it is not part of the wages of sin.

But the Scriptures do say wrath. In an eminent Messianic psalm, Christ said: Because of thine indignation and thy wrath: for thou hast lifted me up, and cast me down. We can see that so clearly in the picture of the Ark, lifted up by God's wrath on the world that then was, lifted up and cast down on the massive waves.

It is also clear on calvary, lifted up on the Cross, and cast down into the grave.

 

[Aaron]

Yes.

He shared in our infirmity.....we deserve the infirmity......He doesn't.

Infirmity is not a result of sin. Neither is it a judgment. It is just the nature of being flesh and bone. We're talking about who was being struck with the rod. Did Moses strike a sponge, or a rock?

 

[JonC]

They imply that wrath is not a just due of the sinner, since, they say, it is not part of the wages of sin.

But the Scriptures do say wrath. In an eminent Messianic psalm, Christ said: Because of thine indignation and thy wrath: for thou hast lifted me up, and cast me down. We can see that so clearly in the picture of the Ark, lifted up by God's wrath on the world that then was, lifted up and cast down on the massive waves.

It is also clear on calvary, lifted up on the Cross, and cast down into the grave.

This is a false claim, but most likely due to a misunderstanding on your part @Aaron .

@agedman and I never once implied that sinners do not deserve wrath. As Scripture tells us - it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment.

And @canadyjd offered another rebuttal to PenalSubstitutionTheory- For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.

There is a reason you can only "defend" Penal Substitution Theory by theorizing about Scripture and never by Scripture itself. It is contrary to God's Word.

 

[JonC]

Infirmity is not a result of sin. Neither is it a judgment. It is just the nature of being flesh and bone. We're talking about who was being struck with the rod. Did Moses strike a sponge, or a rock?

Infirmity is the bondage under which we were enslaved (the wages of sin).

You are assuming Moses is the Father.

 

[Aaron]

Infirmity is the bondage under which we were enslaved (the wages of sin).

You are assuming Moses is the Father.

And you speak of wresting the Scriptures!

Infirmity is mere physical weakness. A babe is very much alive, but weak. The wages of sin is death.

 

[JonC]

And you speak of wresting the Scriptures!

Infirmity is mere physical weakness. A babe is very much alive, but weak. The wages of sin is death.

Yes, a physical death - the flesh (as @canadyjd proved by offering "having been put to death in the flesh").

You seem discontent with Scripture, with what is written in its text. Why? God does not need the help of RCC doctrine (once removed).

 

[canadyjd]

Exactly. I have used that passage several times on this board.


And good point. This dying for our dins, the Just for the unjust, was HAVING BEEN PUT TO DEATH IN THE FLESH, BUT MADE ALIVE IN THE SPIRIT.

That alone is enough to prove Penal Substitution Theory a false doctrine.

1 Peter 3:17–22 For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong. For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;


Believe God's Word.

How can you read that passage, “Christ died for sins, once for all, the just for the unjust…” and not see substitution?

Mind Boggling!!!

peace to you

 

[JonC]

How can you read that passage, “Christ died for sins, once for all, the just for the unjust…” and not see substitution?

Mind Boggling!!!

peace to you

For a couple of reasons.

1. Words have meaning. The Just dying for the unjust simply does not mean the Just dying instead of the unjust.

2. The rest of the passage from which you pulled the verse specifies this death was a physical death....and it is appointed to man once to die and then the Judgment (we still die physically).

I guess you didn't read the entire passage....or didn't realize it stood in opposition to Penal Substitution Theory.

 

[canadyjd]

NO,!!,,

IT says “WE esteemed Him smitten of God…”

The Scriptures DO NOT state God ever smote the Son!

So when Isaiah, who spoke directly to God, and was under inspiration of God Holy Spirit said “We esteemed Him smitten of God…” he was having a perception problem understanding what God was revealing to him?

What else did he get wrong in the passage? What about “by His stripes you are cleansed?”

There is clearly some kind of substitution punishment going on there.

Wait a second!! Is it possible that “we esteemed Him smitten of God” was laying the foundation for “by His stripes you are cleansed”?

Of course it does, but Only if you actually attempt to understand the passage in the context it was written, without ignoring or dismissing everything that goes against what you believe.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

For a couple of reasons.

1. Words have meaning. The Just dying for the unjust simply does not mean the Just dying instead of the unjust.

2. The rest of the passage from which you pulled the verse specifies this death was a physical death....and it is appointed to man once to die and then the Judgment (we still die physically).

I guess you didn't read the entire passage....or didn't realize it stood in opposition to Penal Substitution Theory.

The “just for the unjust” doesn’t mean “instead of”, it means “on behalf of”. Which is substitution.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

The “just for the unjust” doesn’t mean “instead of”, it means “on behalf of”. Which is substitution.

peace to you

It means "for". The Just died in the flesh for the unjust. And "on behalf of" is not substitution (it means in one's interest or....as Scripture indicates....as a representative...like the "Last Adam").

 

[JonC]

So when Isaiah, who spoke directly to God, and was under inspiration of God Holy Spirit said “We esteemed Him smitten of God…” he was having a perception problem understanding what God was revealing to him?

What else did he get wrong in the passage? What about “by His stripes you are cleansed?”

There is clearly some kind of substitution punishment going on there.

Wait a second!! Is it possible that “we esteemed Him smitten of God” was laying the foundation for “by His stripes you are cleansed”?

Of course it does, but Only if you actually attempt to understand the passage in the context it was written, without ignoring or dismissing everything that goes against what you believe.

peace to you

You are skipping words.

Isaiah 53:4–5 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.

 

[AustinC]

1. The Rock was to be Smitten. "You shall smite the rock" (v. 6). This thought never originated in the heart of man, that salvation could be brought forth by smiting the anointed of God. "But He was wounded for our transgressions, with His stripes we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5). The sword must awake against the man that was God's fellow. Oh, worship the Lord!

2. The Rock was to be Smitten with a Rod. "Your rod, with which you smote the river, take in your hand" (v. 5). This was the rod of judgment that turned the river into blood, and the sign of God's authority and power. "It pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief" (Isaiah 53:10). Concerning the sufferings of Christ we may truly say, "This is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes" (Psalm 118:23).
Moses Striking the Rock | Precept Austin

 

[canadyjd]

You are skipping words.

Isaiah 53:4–5 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.

“He was pierced through for our transgressions..” “He was crushed for our iniquities”

Do you see any substitution there?

peace to you