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Did Jesus turn the water into wine, or grape juice
- Thread starter rjprince
- Start date
standingfirminChrist
New Member
So, you believe an article written by man that was not inspired by the Holy Spirit over that precious Word of God which was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Ok I was going to sign off but this has to be answered.
I never said ALL of Rev is to be taken symbolically, but that verse is, along with others. Please read the article you may just learn something new. Hermenutics is the basics for interpeting scripture not mans opinion.
Goodnight!
I never said ALL of Rev is to be taken symbolically, but that verse is, along with others. Please read the article you may just learn something new. Hermenutics is the basics for interpeting scripture not mans opinion.
Goodnight!
I don't need the lesson in hermeneutics, and you don't need to take up so much band width in copying and pasting such a long article when just the URL would have been sufficient.
Yes, wine is symbolic. It often is. But what is it symbolic of here in this verse? It is symbolic of the wrath of God. That was the whole point of the post.
In alcoholic wine (made of fermentation0, the yeast (active ingredient of fermented wine) is always symbolic of sin, corruption, and false doctrine.
Beware of the leaven (yeast, fermentation) of the Pharisees. Beware of their false doctrine.
Jesus would not use yeast (fermentation) that are symbolic of corruption, sin, false doctrine, and in some places God's Wrath. Yet some on this board would use yeast to represent the blood of Christ (at the Lord's Table), thereby symbolizing corruption in his blood.
Yes, wine is often symbolic. I hope you understand that. Understand also that when you make the suggestion that Jesus was a glutton and a winebibber, that with that argument you make Jesus a sinner, and not a Saviour.
DHK
standingfirminChrist
New Member
sounds like you are making yourself authority of how the Word of God is to be interpreted.
Get rid of wrath.
partake in any sin you want, because Revelation is just symbolic.
Get real.
Throw those trashy articles away and study the Bible.
Get rid of wrath.
partake in any sin you want, because Revelation is just symbolic.
Get real.
Throw those trashy articles away and study the Bible.
The Golden Rule of Bible Interpretation
"When the PLAIN SENSE of Scripture makes COMMON SENSE, SEEK N
THER SENSE. Therefore, take EVERY WORD at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning, UNLESS the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages, and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate CLEARLY otherwise. God, in revealing His Word, neither intends nor permits the reader to be confused. He wants His children to understand." Author Unknown
The word "wine" in the Bible doesn't always means fermented. Context is so important and from what I've seen on this thread, the word "wine" is ALWAYS meaning fermented. DHK posted right at the beginning of this thread about context and I'm posting it once again. It seems like most are ignoring it--in a vain attempt to justify drinking alcoholic wine.
"When the PLAIN SENSE of Scripture makes COMMON SENSE, SEEK N
THER SENSE. Therefore, take EVERY WORD at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning, UNLESS the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages, and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate CLEARLY otherwise. God, in revealing His Word, neither intends nor permits the reader to be confused. He wants His children to understand." Author UnknownThe word "wine" in the Bible doesn't always means fermented. Context is so important and from what I've seen on this thread, the word "wine" is ALWAYS meaning fermented. DHK posted right at the beginning of this thread about context and I'm posting it once again. It seems like most are ignoring it--in a vain attempt to justify drinking alcoholic wine.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Amen, DHK.
too many try to make Jesus a sinner in order to justify their own sin. If I can prove Jesus drank fermented wine, then I can justify my drinking it.
Hogwash.
Jesus was the spotless, sinless Son of God. They can twist His words all they want, but it does not change them.
Satan tried to do the same thing using God's Word to cause Jesus to sin.
deja vu?
too many try to make Jesus a sinner in order to justify their own sin. If I can prove Jesus drank fermented wine, then I can justify my drinking it.
Hogwash.
Jesus was the spotless, sinless Son of God. They can twist His words all they want, but it does not change them.
Satan tried to do the same thing using God's Word to cause Jesus to sin.
deja vu?
Hope of Glory
New Member
From what I can tell, no one on this thread who can see that when taken in "its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning", wine is wine (not grape juice), actually drinks. We have nothing to fear.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Hope,
Wine is wine. But it can be unfermented or unfermented depending on the context.
Wine is wine. But it can be unfermented or unfermented depending on the context.
Yep. Fermented or unfermented, according to the context.
Matt 11:18-19 – 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Luke 7:33-35 –
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.
In verse 33 John does not drink fermented wine, then in verse 34 drinking refers to juice, while winebiibber again refers to that which is alcoholic. Yep. That must be what taking it in context is all about! RIGHT on there Biblicists and scholars!
And in the context of John 2, the Wine Jesus made is non-alcoholic even though the text plainly calls it the best wine capable of making the men "well drunk" (v. 10). Yep, lets take the word in context.
UNBELIEVABLE! If it does not fit my theology, just IGNORE THE CONTEXT!
REGARDING NON-ALCOHOLIC WINE, SHOW ME EVEN ONE NT PASSAGE WHERE THE CONTEXT INDICATES THAT OINOS REFERS TO UNFERMENTED WINE!!! CANT, CANT, CANT!!! While the OT yayin may have occasional reference to unfermented wine, there is no passage in the NT where the context indicates that oinos is ever anything but fermented!!!
SHOW ME EVEN ONE!!!
Only when I read the Bible through special "magic glasses" could I see what some of you guys see!
I chose to take the literal sense, not WRANGLE with the text -- even though I have repeatedly stated I SINCERELY DO WISH THE TEXT SAID WHAT SOME OF YOU GUY ARGUE THAT IT SAYS!!!
Matt 11:18-19 – 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Luke 7:33-35 –
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.
In verse 33 John does not drink fermented wine, then in verse 34 drinking refers to juice, while winebiibber again refers to that which is alcoholic. Yep. That must be what taking it in context is all about! RIGHT on there Biblicists and scholars!
And in the context of John 2, the Wine Jesus made is non-alcoholic even though the text plainly calls it the best wine capable of making the men "well drunk" (v. 10). Yep, lets take the word in context.
UNBELIEVABLE! If it does not fit my theology, just IGNORE THE CONTEXT!
REGARDING NON-ALCOHOLIC WINE, SHOW ME EVEN ONE NT PASSAGE WHERE THE CONTEXT INDICATES THAT OINOS REFERS TO UNFERMENTED WINE!!! CANT, CANT, CANT!!! While the OT yayin may have occasional reference to unfermented wine, there is no passage in the NT where the context indicates that oinos is ever anything but fermented!!!
SHOW ME EVEN ONE!!!
Only when I read the Bible through special "magic glasses" could I see what some of you guys see!
I chose to take the literal sense, not WRANGLE with the text -- even though I have repeatedly stated I SINCERELY DO WISH THE TEXT SAID WHAT SOME OF YOU GUY ARGUE THAT IT SAYS!!!
standingfirminChrist
New Member
John 2:1-11 oinos - unfermented whether you believe it or not.
yep. Just ignore the word methuw used in both John 2:10 and Eph 5:18. And you guessed well. I do not believe it. I believe the CLEAR context. But then again, I do not have magic glasses, just the Holy Spirit. I guess it must be the combination that does the trick...
And that is exactly what it is, a trick -- slight of hand, manipulation of the text to deny what it plainly says on the basis of preconceived notions that prevent reading the text as it stands...
NOT ONE PERSON HAS RESPONDED TO DETAILS OF THIS POST (April 02, 2006 08:21) IN ANY SUBSTANTIAL MANNER!!! AND THESE ISSUES HAVE BEEN POINTED OUT REPEATEDLY THROUGH THIS ENTIRE THREAD...
...the meaning of methuw and a parallel with Eph 5:18 in my very first post...
Ignore and deny. No need to deal in any substantial manner, just say "Well, I believe...
And that is exactly what it is, a trick -- slight of hand, manipulation of the text to deny what it plainly says on the basis of preconceived notions that prevent reading the text as it stands...
NOT ONE PERSON HAS RESPONDED TO DETAILS OF THIS POST (April 02, 2006 08:21) IN ANY SUBSTANTIAL MANNER!!! AND THESE ISSUES HAVE BEEN POINTED OUT REPEATEDLY THROUGH THIS ENTIRE THREAD...
...the meaning of methuw and a parallel with Eph 5:18 in my very first post...
Ignore and deny. No need to deal in any substantial manner, just say "Well, I believe...
Brother Bob
New Member
So, as Jesus walked the shores of Galilee, preaching His own everlasting Gospel, He was a little "tipsy"?
Sure. Respond to what I said by distorting what I said. That makes you right. Can't deal with the real wording of the text, or my post, so slant it just a bit to make your point. Works for you... NOT.
At hand here is not the immediate issue of wine in the Bible, MUCH MORE SO, it is handling the Word of God with INTEGRITY. It seems there is little else to be said...
I wonder why I keep repeating myself? Ears that will not hear... Eyes that will not see...
IF God is not convicting you on the matter of faithfully handling the Word as He wrote it, I certainly have no chance.
BB, are you a preacher? I would be terrified to stand in my pulpit and handle the word as I have seen it handled here. Far batter to stand and declare, "Thus saith the Lord... Folks, I do not understand it, and I do not even like it. But that is what God has said, and I am not going to revise it or slant it in ANY way."
At hand here is not the immediate issue of wine in the Bible, MUCH MORE SO, it is handling the Word of God with INTEGRITY. It seems there is little else to be said...
I wonder why I keep repeating myself? Ears that will not hear... Eyes that will not see...
IF God is not convicting you on the matter of faithfully handling the Word as He wrote it, I certainly have no chance.
BB, are you a preacher? I would be terrified to stand in my pulpit and handle the word as I have seen it handled here. Far batter to stand and declare, "Thus saith the Lord... Folks, I do not understand it, and I do not even like it. But that is what God has said, and I am not going to revise it or slant it in ANY way."
Brother Bob
New Member
Oh yes sir, I am a preacher a moderator/pastor and have been ordained for over thirty three years, and it is my life and I take it very seriously. The church I serve now, I have been there for 17 years. The last church I served it was of 8 years. I for one did not say it was not wine, just that it was not an alcoholic wine.
5: And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. 6: Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.
They were being punished?
The could make molten calves and worship idol gods, but not drink wine?
5: And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. 6: Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.
They were being punished?
The could make molten calves and worship idol gods, but not drink wine?
1Cor 4:1-5:
1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Brother Bob
New Member
We are debating, in no way do I question you or anyone's Salvation on this board.
I could easily use the Scriptures you are using if I believed that it was an alcoholic wine, but I believe that alcohol is a "tool" of the devil.
I wonder if you traveled the road I did along with several others on here before becoming a Christian. Life itself is one of the greatest teachers of all and NJ; you learn more from the mistakes you make than you ever will with making all the right moves in life.
I must say to uphold drinking in any sort is a dangerous thing and can only lead to trouble for you with those who are around you, for there are those who will certainly take advantage of it.
[ April 02, 2006, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]
I could easily use the Scriptures you are using if I believed that it was an alcoholic wine, but I believe that alcohol is a "tool" of the devil.
I wonder if you traveled the road I did along with several others on here before becoming a Christian. Life itself is one of the greatest teachers of all and NJ; you learn more from the mistakes you make than you ever will with making all the right moves in life.
I must say to uphold drinking in any sort is a dangerous thing and can only lead to trouble for you with those who are around you, for there are those who will certainly take advantage of it.
[ April 02, 2006, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]
OH WOW. DID NOT MEAN TO IMPLY THAT. Should have explained, VERY SORRY.
God will judge us both, as to reward of loss of reward, I certainly assume your salvation and have no reason to question THAT for any of the posts on this thread!
The key point I was making is that I answer to God alone as to how I handle His Word, as do we all. Futher, no matter how badly either one of may blow it on this or any other issue,
When God reveals the intents of our hearts, HE WILL FIND SOMETHING FOR WHICH TO PRAISE US ALL...
Even teetotalling juice drinkers like me, who just will not grant that Jesus made grape juice when the text says "wine".
God will judge us both, as to reward of loss of reward, I certainly assume your salvation and have no reason to question THAT for any of the posts on this thread!
The key point I was making is that I answer to God alone as to how I handle His Word, as do we all. Futher, no matter how badly either one of may blow it on this or any other issue,
When God reveals the intents of our hearts, HE WILL FIND SOMETHING FOR WHICH TO PRAISE US ALL...
Even teetotalling juice drinkers like me, who just will not grant that Jesus made grape juice when the text says "wine".
Charles Meadows
New Member
I don't understand how there can be debate over this. Of course Jesus drank wine and of course there was some alcohol in it. That was the only thing they had to drink which would not spoil. The alcohol in the wine killed E coli and other germs which would cause severe diarrhea.
Of course Jesus never drank to excess. But He did drink wine.
Of course Jesus never drank to excess. But He did drink wine.