Did Judas repent?

[ken1burton]

Gina.

Great, a little sanity might help.

How many Disciples does this leave. I guess one more then is expected.

Jesus is seen by the Eleven. Too bad THOMAS is away on VACATION. He will be there to see Jesus till EIGHT DAYS LATER. With Thomas not there, How many Disciples should Jesus have appeared to?

(JOHN 20:24) But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. (KJV) ""ONE OF THE TWELVE???""
(JOHN 20:25) The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. (KJV)
(JOHN 20:26) And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. (KJV)

I use NEW MATH. New to mankind. Called addition by truth.

(1CORINTHIANS 15:5) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: (KJV)

THEN follows Cephas, which is one of the ones on the road to Emmanus. Want to try for which twelve he is refering to?

Now for the Disciple Jesus loved at the cross with Mary.

Peter was let into the palace by a Disciple known to the High Priest. Judas was known by the High Priest. Judas is there. Judas is the one by the Cross as Peter, who we know can not be the Disciple Jesus loved went out weeping.

John can not be the Disciple Jesus loved. That is shown in Scripture. Had it been another Disciple besides Judas, they would not have hesitated to name him. Instead they go to great lengths not to use His name.

Luke who went into detail in his Gospel to set everything in order. Would not even mention the Disciple Jesus loved as running to the Sepulchre. But let the cat out of the bag by saying Peter ran alone, but "THEY" did not find Him, and Peter alone is not a "They"

(LUKE 24:12) Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass. (KJV)

(LUKE 24:24) And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. (KJV)

Alone He was not. And Luke would not mention who He was with.

Luke mentions Judas was named a Apostle, and also makes mention of other things,

(LUKE 6:16) And Judas {the brother} of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor. (KJV)

I think Luke is what they call a HOSTILE witness.

As far as the Kingdom not being established the day of the cross. It WAS.

(MATTHEW 26:29) But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. (KJV)

This is a prophecy, it will be fulfilled the day of the cross. Here Jesus is taking the vow of a Nazarite. Keeps Himself from every thing of the vine, No Wine, No raisins, No VINEGAR.

(JOHN 19:28) After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. (KJV)

Jesus now has to drink of the fruit of the vine (Vinegar) and allow Himself to die. This is drinking NEW in the Kingdom.

(JOHN 19:29) Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. (KJV)
(JOHN 19:30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (KJV)

(NUMBERS 6:2) Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the Lord: (KJV)
(NUMBERS 6:3) He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. (KJV)

Jesus was given all power in heaven and in earth. That is His Kingdom seen also. And of the Increase of His peace and Government there shall be no end. Means once the Kingdom started, it always gets bigger. That is why the falling away first had to come before Jesus is given all power in heaven and in earth. It would be a decrease.

(ISAIAH 9:7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. (KJV)

"For ever" is the day of the cross taken out of time.

This is the promise to David to raise up His son to be the Son of God. Solomon does not qualify as He became King while David was still alive.

(2SAMUEL 7:11) And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the Lord telleth thee that he will make thee an house. (KJV)
(2SAMUEL 7:12) And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. (KJV)
(2SAMUEL 7:13) He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. (KJV)
(2SAMUEL 7:14) I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: (KJV)

The Kingdom is not Established for "for ever" it is established IN "FOR EVER" which is the day of the cross taken out of time. "For ever and ever" is the day of the cross and everlasting future.

Ken1burton

 

[ken1burton]

Walguy.

Here is the Problem. Judas was at the trial. Peter had gone out weeping, Judas is left to testify of these things.

Peter is asking about Judas that is following. Jesus is saying "Don't kill him" Leave him alone and you follow me. That is why the saying goes abroad that that disciples should not die. "Don't hurt him.

"This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true."

GREAT, If this is John bearing witness. This is the Gospel according to John. look at the "AND WE WE WE WE know that HIS HIS HIS testimony is true. The WE Would have to include John doing the writting, and the HIS has to be someone else. Judas is bearing witness to what took place.

ken1burton

 

[Gina B]

What happens to the math when you add the disciple chosen to take the place of Judas?
Gina

 

[Gina B]

Are you saying the Judas is the author of the book of John? Judas was no longer alive when this was written, years later.
Don't know if that's what you were trying to say...
Also, Peter was there to witness it. He was right there for the priests to question his identity, read again where the one who he struck in the garden recognizes him.
Gina

 

[Walguy]

Ken, you remind me of the story about the man who was convinced he was dead.
In order to prove to him that he was, in fact, alive, his doctor went to great lengths to show him that living people bleed when they are cut, and dead people do not. Finally the man was convinced. The doctor then took a small lancet and made a little cut on the man's finger. Naturally, it bled.
The man looked at his finger, and said in astonishment, "Well, what do you know, I was wrong! Dead men DO bleed!"
Gina, I suggest we just leave the poor fellow alone. He 'knows' he's right, and no amount of facts and logic will change his mind.

 

[ken1burton]

Gina.

I was responding to the ELEVEN. Showing that Thomas was not there when the ELEVEN was seen by Jesus. Add it any way you want. But it still shows 11 minus Thomas, and it still says seen by the twelve.

There is no clear statement as to who the eleven or who the twelve were. Using the eleven then is not showing anything clearly.

Judas did not write the Gospel according to John, He did bear witness to some things written in there. The WE includes John know that HIS which can not be John testimoy is true.

This can drag out forever till we see them in person in heaven. There is Scripture that points both ways. I hold that Peter choosing another so Judas can go to his own place shows Judas alive. I hold that the Disciple Jesus loved that no one would mention by name is Judas. I hold that Judas running with Peter seen in John was not recorded in Luke, but as Peter running alone because Luke did not want to use Judas' name.

You take it any way you want to. There is too much Scripture that can not be explained by Judas having died the day of the cross.

Ken1burton

 

[Gina B]

Walguy, I know what you mean, unfortunately who knows who's reading what he writes and might see nothing wrong with it?

Ken, out of curiosity, do you consider yourself a Baptist? I noticed that you stated you were baptized as such, (??).

Joseph Bot.- I'd like to hear what you think of some of Ken's interpretations of scripture (just the ones that he said prove the Bible prophecies have already been fulfilled). Just curious to see if any of it falls in line with a CHRISTIAN view that most/all has been completed.

Gina

 

[Star]

Thank you very much Gina. your respond was with a lot of effort.

Amen Ken, I can respect that in Gina also, this is a "first" in intelligent discussion by dissection (point by point) and I'm even more glad shes a woman

Gina good job! I like the fact you copy pasted each other to have a point of reference for refute. Especially on Ken's posts I'm his freind but I get lost while he loses me on His posts. Its a cycle (goes like this)... "Whats he talking about"? "Hmmm... I never saw that before", "thats interesting", oops I lost him (?) Ok, I'm getting it, yes I can see that, Gees wheres he get this? "Ok, I can see this too" "Ah ha" (experience) YES! Then, "Shoot I just lost him", Whoa! hold on there", "No way can't be","I don't know about this", "well thats ture", "well thats true too", " Gees,I never looked at it like that before", "good point", "another good point", What?! Scratching head, looking for fault. The process has been endless for over a year.The scarey thing is he makes sense to me now lol! On alot not all things. What a ride it has been!

Gina's the first to use thoughts from scripture "point by point" in an intelligent debate with Ken. I would love to see this continue if Gina's up for the challenge (as well as Ken). This could be laborsome but beneficial for all.

Praying for strength for Gina, and clarity for Ken

In Him Kim

P.S

Who do the teachers of the law say that I am?

But who do you say that I am?

Its only important what you feel led to seek and understand because others might not have the same inquiries you have, or might not be ready to recieve them. Toss it around (as we all) but give yourself the freedom to explore if you feel led to, otherwise if you don't feel led to you can't really follow without a lead.

[ May 26, 2002, 02:14 AM: Message edited by: Star ]

 

[Don]

Ken, there's several problems I see with your logic:

Judas was at the first trial, but not the second. Matthew seems to be pretty clear that after the trial before the Pharisees, Judas took his own life (through the use of the word "then," which usually means "after"); then came the trial before Pilate.

The disciple whom Jesus loved, who was laying on Jesus' breast at the Last Supper, asked Jesus who it was that would betray Him; Jesus responded, "It is the person that I give this sop to" and therewith handed the sop to Judas--not the disciple who asked the question.

John 21:24 is pretty clear in that it's modifying the previous verses (20-23), which only lends credence to the generally accepted viewpoint that the disciple whom Jesus loved is the same one who asked Jesus who would betray Him: John.

Isn't it funny how Matthew mentions Thomas without mentioning Thomas? (Matt 28:17) Isn't it amusing how Mark mentions him also? (Mark 16:14) Isn't it humorous how Luke mentions it, too? (Luke 24:40-41)

Isn't it also interesting how, in all three of those accounts, they mention the dinner that was taking place?

So yes, there were eleven disciples present, including Thomas; the second time Jesus appeared to the disciples after His death. Reading all the accounts, one finds that Jesus appeared to no less than three different disciples: Peter, on the water, and two of them (unnamed) on the road to Emmaus. The accounts then all agree that when all eleven were assembled, Jesus appeared to them again. So no, Judas was not there after Jesus' death.

I guess my only question is: Why have you blinded yourself to this?

 

[Me2]

Hello Star,
Is Ken Looking For A Interpreter? and Is There A Relevant Point. Its That "Whoa I Lost Ya",
That I Cant Get Used Too. Starting With This Thread, Ive Actually Started To Understand Where Hes Coming From. "Spooky". I See That Ken Does Have Insight. But The Relaying of Info Into A Relevant Format Is as I See It, A Much Much Harder Task. Now I Am Going Back To Look At ALL of His Previous Posts.
Sorry Ken, I Have Taught Myself How To View and Correlate Scripture In A Specific Way Thats Different From Yours. But Im Out Here Taking Notes....
Its Kinda Like Saying "The Devil Is Gods Holy Name", That Throws About 99.9% of The People Off. Kind Of A Sensitivity Issue!..
Like Addressing The Point Of Judas Fulfilling Jewish Law. a Very Different Viewpoint.......

Later

[ May 26, 2002, 02:32 AM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

[Star]

Me2,

Is Ken looking for an interpreter? Not really but he really shouldn't be speaking without one (sorry, I couldn't resist).

Actually, Ken speaks in His own way, I speak in mine, and you speak in yours and I graciously accept all who speak a bit differently. Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke alike? Keep in mind I still have "my preferences" ofcourse

In Him Kim

 

[Star]

Ken,

How about this verse?

1 Corinth 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

In Him Kim

 

[ken1burton]

Walguy.

Nice story, The Christian faith is full of nice stories. Many of then unscriptural. The real search is what is Truth, What is God really saying in Scripture.

Dead men do bleed, but not for long after they are dead. And you can not leave a person ALONE. God is Omni-present. He is the Friend that sticks closer then a Brother (Jesus)

Jesus spoke the words God gave to Him:

(JOHN 15:15) Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. (KJV)

(JOHN 7:16) Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. (KJV)

(JOHN 14:24) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. (KJV)

Gina:

As far as considering myself a Baptist. I believe with all my heart we need to Baptise in the name of Christ. That baptism however is in fire. God's word is like as a fire in Jeremiah 23:29. I think we need to immerse people in God's words. Like Jesus did at the Sermon on the Mount. Poured out the knowledge of God to the people.

Again at the Last Supper, Jesus just poured out His Words. This is being a Baptiser. Get them immersed.

As far as Baptist as being a denomination. Too much error in Doctrine. Sin ended as Daniel 9:24 shows. Like it or not we are to search the Scripture for what is truth and what is not. And one thing the Denominations seldom if ever do. When something is found to be wrong. Change the Doctrine.

The object is to follow Jesus. Baptising in His name. That is immersing them in God's word. Not a water baptism of repentance. Repentance is hid from God's eyes. Honestly searching for truth. Even if we do not like what we find as Truth.

If you are following Jesus with your whole heart, and I am following Jesus with my whole heart, are we not walking together? Did not the Disciples following Jesus dispute among themselves?

Was this not what Paul was speaking about as being parts of the same Body, but not all the same part? Is it so hard to see what side a person is on?

Putting the Words into the right order or context means a lot to me. I do not call the person "the good thief", I say the one CALLED the good thief. I know Jesus had the sin of the World. I know Jesus was crucified between two innocent men. How can I call that man a thief if God moved those sins unto Jesus?

(PSALMS 50:23) Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God. (KJV)

As with Aldolf Hitler. I assume he is no longer here on earth. In heaven with he righteousness of Christ given in Job 33:26 he would have a much different attitude. Should I speak of his evil here? Jesus paid for it at Calvary. And those that are forgiven more, loveth more. He is not the same person there. Why be unkind, He might even hear our words.

Is this not what we really want? For others to come into the knowledge and love of God. In heaven they already have. At death all remember and turn unto the Lord:

(PSALMS 22:27) All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. (KJV)

All the Kindreds of the nations means every single person that ever was, and every person that is now, and every person that every will be at death come into the love and knowledge of God.
That is what Grace is all about.

The ones out of hell are seen in Scripture, As children in a quiver (Sepulchre), shot forth as arrows. they are not ashamed, they speak to the enemies at the gate. They are at Heaven's gate speaking of the love and mercy of God. A gate BROKEN down. He openeth and No man shutteth. He shut down an empty hell, and no man openeth.

Those broken down gates of heaven have great power. That is in making Attitude adjustments. A power we need to get more of here on earth.

Don.

Judas may well have physically hanged Himself. But not before Peter chose another to replace him in the book of Acts. A dead man can not "go to his own place."

Putting the casting of the thirty pieces of silver in the temple then going out and hanging himself in the same sentence, written about 20 years after, does not mean they were the same day.

Hanging themselves, and bowels gushed out (spilling their guts) can mean a confession also. Just possibilities on how Judas can still be alive in Acts.

The Trials the day of the cross did not have Jesus condemned at first. Herod did not condemn Jesus. Pilate did not condemn Jesus after many times in front of Him.

Judas could not have seen Jesus as condemned till Pilate gave the final order to the Priests to take Jesus and crucify Him.

(MATTHEW 27:2) And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor. (KJV)
(MATTHEW 27:3) Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, (KJV)

These verses in Matthew are not in very good order. This is the first time before Pilate. He has not yet been condemned by those in authority to Crucify Him. But this is also written down many years after the fact.

The Priests going and buying the field also appears to be the next order of events. Do you think they left what was happening to go real estate shopping?

Matthew is listing events, but not all done that day. or even to consider what to do with the silver?

John makes mention of the Disciple Jesus loved too many time when that disciple ran with Peter to the Sepulchre. All referenced as HIM, THEY, THEM. Too many time for it to have been John himself.

John goes into great lengths not to use that Disciples name. Far too great a length. Luke would not even mention the Disciple Jesus loved as being with Peter as he ran to the Sepulchre.

Just using a simple "Peter and I" or "Peter and John" would have been sufficient. Had that Disciple been John that is. That Disciple Offens them, and that is because it is Judas.

Notice that John has no problem using the words "WE" and "US". Because John is one of the people he is refering to.

(JOHN 1:14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (KJV)

Did John forget his grammar? Did the "We" become "Them" and the "Us" become "They", Or is John not, never was, the Disciple Jesus loved, that lay upon Christ's bosom at the last supper?

We do not know that the Disciple Jesus handed the sop to was not the one laying on His breast. The Scripture just says the sop was given to Judas. and was foretold to the one laying on His breast.

Mark 16:14 is one I used to show Eleven and THOMAS is not there then. Luke 24:40-41 is the same event. That is the first time, and Thomas is not there.

Matthew 28:17 dies show 11 Disciples going into Galilee.

(MATTHEW 28:16) Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. (KJV)
(MATTHEW 28:17) And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. (KJV)

These verses have problems: WHEN did they go to Galilee? There is differences in the ending in the four Gospels. Galilee would have taken time to get there no doubt. We they not told to WAIT at Jerusalem:

(LUKE 24:49) And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. (KJV)

This was said in Christ's first visit after He was resurructed after the cross. Pentecost is about 50 days away. they are not headed for Galilee for awhile. There are 11 Disciples going to Galilee in Matthew. But WHEN?

When Jesus appears on the Shore, With fish upon the coals. The Disciple that Jesus loved is again by Peter.

(JOHN 21:2) There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples. (KJV)

John being one of the sons of Zebedee is there. But two Disciples go unnamed.

(JOHN 21:7) Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, for he was naked, and did cast himself into the sea. (KJV)

AGAIN, Not naming the Disciple Jesus loved. John is not saying, "Therefore I said unto Peter."

(JOHN 21:20) Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? (KJV)
(JOHN 21:21) Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? (KJV)
(JOHN 21:23) Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? (KJV)

Again and Again and Again. Never using his name, a name they do not wish to use mo matter how great a length they have to go to avoid it.

Me2:

I take Scripte like a jigsaw puzzle. I jump aroung putting pieces together till the main picture comes into view. As the main picture is different then what is assumed.

If I just went into Doctrine, one at a time, it would be even more unrelated as few would ever get to the overall picture.

I assume we have all done Jigsaw puzzles. They are just piles of non-related pieces. Till they start going together. Then we see a piece and know just where it goes. So are the Scriptures.

Remember the Agrivation? You looking and looking and another walks up, graps a piece and places it just where it belongs. The object is to get this puzzle together in truth. not who gets the pieces put it.

I can use all the interpreters I can get. God hires on a daily basis. Part of praying for labours.

Star:

I listed 1 Corinthian 15:5 already. Seen of the TWELVE.

Ken1burton

 

[Star]

I think this is very interesting. Scripture can be seen to support this. Please if anyone (because I would like to see this)can follow through on this refute please do, because I have had my questions prior going back and forth on this with Ken (he won). If there is a rebuttal (giving greater evidence) lets get on considering these things and bring the reasons (contrary) to the table.I personally can see what Ken is saying, though I have always thought otherwise but these things win me over to consider something different. Yet I can't believe I believed what I did with very little support I can't possibly hold on to what I once thought considering what is laid on the table. I have accepted "mans" explanation but the whole of scripture which speaks of the cross and the events surrounding it give me more to look at here then what was previously thought.

This is why I appreciate the "reasoning together" from the scripture because I've overlooked alot and never considered these things because I had condemned (for myself) having "second thoughts" which is ridiculous if it can be supported in another direction and land you looking at the law, prophecy, fulfilled at the Cross and lands you at the Mercy seat.

In Him Kim

 

[Don]

(MATTHEW 27:2) And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor. (KJV)
(MATTHEW 27:3) Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, (KJV)

These verses in Matthew are not in very good order. This is the first time before Pilate. He has not yet been condemned by those in authority to Crucify Him. But this is also written down many years after the fact.

Error.

The first trial was before the religious leaders. The second trial was before Pilate. After the trial before the religious leaders, who condemned Christ (Matthew 27:1) and then hauled him off to be tried before the governor.

I want you and Star to understand: The logic you're using (it was all written later) to muddy the events is even more usable on the 1 Cor 15:5 reference, which was written by Paul--who didn't become an apostle until well after Christ's death, and wasn't present for any of the events depicted in the Gospels.

John makes mention of the Disciple Jesus loved too many time when that disciple ran with Peter to the Sepulchre. All referenced as HIM, THEY, THEM. Too many time for it to have been John himself.

In the words of my 8th grade English teacher: "Uh, WRONG!" John never referred to himself directly throughout the entire gospel of John. There would be no reason to believe that he would suddenly start referring to himself any differently in the last couple of chapters.

We do not know that the Disciple Jesus handed the sop to was not the one laying on His breast. The Scripture just says the sop was given to Judas. and was foretold to the one laying on His breast.

Beg to differ.

Your earlier logic dictates that we can't know for certain some things about John's writings. What doesn't make sense, more than anything else, would be John's referring to Judas Iscariot as the disciple whom Jesus loved, but referring to them as two different people in this one short passage. That outright doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It doesn't fit John's authorship style, and it doesn't fit with the way the rest of the book reads.

Finally, John 21 is pretty clear: Peter, still in the throes of his betrayal of Christ, having just been told three times to feed Jesus' sheep, does a purely human thing and asks Jesus "What about that guy? You're not telling him to feed your sheep."

John 21:24 is pretty clear that the disciple in question, the disciple whom Jesus loved, who asked who it was that would betray Jesus, is the disciple who testified of these things, and could have written of many, many more. That disciple, who wrote of (testified) of these things is generally accepted to be John--unless now, of course, you'd like to present the case that perhaps it should the gospel of Judas Iscariot (I believe someone else made this point as well).

Sorry, Ken; you're just not able to prove this point. It's way too refutable.

Star,

Use Ken's logic. If the book of John, which was written 20 years after the death of Christ, is "blurry" on the details of there being eleven or twelve present, then how much more "blurry" would be the details written by Paul (1 Cor 15:5), a man who wasn't even present at the events?

It's much more likely that Paul, who was never "in" with the other apostles to begin with, used an all-including "twelve" rather than meaning to specifically say twelve disciples were present.

Okay, outta here. I just take the opportunity to show where Ken's wrong each time he posts this stuff. (Before Star or anyone has the opportunity to think that that's a bad thing, remember that we all have a responsibility to point out incorrect doctrine)

Those that are seeing his similitudes and understanding his points of view: No problem. I understand them waaaaaaay too well. Just be forewarned: Do the research and the study yourself. I've shown on more than one occasion before that Ken has a habit of taking verses out of context in order to prove his points. If that's what you have to do in order to prove you're right, well, then, you're wrong to begin with....

 

[ken1burton]

Don.

John may have never refered to himself directly. But John did refer to himself with others using CORRECT GRAMMAR. He knows the usage of words. and I listed the verse. I will show the verse again.

(JOHN 1:14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (KJV)

Now, For what YOU have shown before. That I assume is shown to yourself? Do you really believe John using the "They" and the "Them" and the "He" refering to the Disciple Jesus loved is speaking of himself? Or do you feel you have to defend church doctrine, even if it is wrong?

Judas still alive was one small portion of the post. What happened to the rest being addressed? Why was I not blasted by Scripture showing the Devil is Not God's Holy name? Is there Scripture that shows this?

ken1burton
John refering to Himself with others as "WE" as "US", But does not use this when refering to Peter and the Disciple Jesus loved. He uses "THEM", "THEY" and "HE".

You may not accept the Disciple Jesus loved as Judas. But Scripture shows it sure wasn't John.

I like using Paul not being there to support his possibility of just using wrong wording.

Lets Throw out Mark, Luke, And seeing Matthew and John fled from the mount of Olives. toss them out also. As we know of none of them physically present at the Trials.

We know Peter was close by. Scripture does not show where he went after going out weeping. He was afraid for his life. He might have kept going out of there.

We know a Disciple was present known unto the High Priest. That disciples had the girl that kept the door open it for Peter. Judas was known to the High Priest. We know the Disciple Jesus loved was at the cross, and that Disciple was not Peter. And it sure was not John.

(JOHN 19:27) Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home. (KJV)

Again. Not using his name, and refering to him as another person. Not John himself.

This may be accepted doctrine that John is the Disciple Jesus loved. Scripture shows he is not. Time to start changing Doctrine when it is shown to be wrong. Dump John, and search till you find the truth.

 

[Don]

Sorry, Ken; not defending church doctrine. Defending what I personally know to be truth. IN other words, "The Gospel According to Ken" doesn't add up.

John may have never refered to himself directly. But John did refer to himself with others using CORRECT GRAMMAR. He knows the usage of words. and I listed the verse. I will show the verse again.

But not referring directly to himself, now was it? Care to show us any verse in the book of John where John says, "Jesus came to me" or "the disciples and I"?

Do you really want scripture blasting you about the Devil not being God's Holy Name? (I'm assuming that you mean the Devil is the title of Lucifer/Satan)

Zechariah 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan....

Matthew 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made

Seems pretty clear to me that the Devil/Satan was made by God, and therefore is not God.

Sorry you've decided that you have a particular theology you want to endorse, and have chosen to close your eyes to the truth of the matter.

I pray God will open them for you...before it's too late....

 

[Star]

Hey Don,

Relax... I'm testing Ken's logic as I would test anyones we don't nessesarily agree on everything I have said that openly before but I think he makes great points and using more verses to back these up that connect both to Old Testament prophetic writings which were to speak of the Cross of Jesus Christ and the circumstances surrounding this predetermined work of God (The Cross). It may be different from what is commonly accepted but I personally know that which was commonly accepted at many points were also surrounded with a thousand unanswered questions and doubts and the internet boards show these very things.

Don, I don't think showing anything as incorrect according to scripture is a bad thing, I have on many occasions openly asked (sincerely) for that. In times past Ken would show a thousand verses and receive back mocking and laughter with no scriptures to show refute on more occasions then not. Gina I can respect in that regard even though the points she raised (good ones) were brought back to the table I appreciate that in any christian, I personally am not in the "herd mentality" I have always thought to seek these things for myself because I know what happens when the blind follow the blind. In fact if I'm blind how can my own eyes see that the one I'm trusting (just because everyone is) is not taking me down the wrong path? So I agree we are not to follow anyone but an example (Of life) and test all things holding fast to the good, spitting out the bones sort of thing. I've seen ministers take a single verse and make a doctrine out of which shapes the entire mentality of those following ignorantly behind them but I've never seen someone use every single line in scripture and bring them to the foot of the cross, in fact to know only the Cross of Christ is where this takes you seeing all things summed up in the three years period of Christ. Thats pretty amazing to me, Christ said the scriptures testify of Him.

So I fail to see any harm in seeing Christ and him crucified or seeing Gods mercy to Judas because these two things seeing Christ Crucified is Gods wisdom (and ours) and His mercy we have obtained. So taking the whole thing (the overall picture) I fail to see the harm. If would be different if Christ Himself were not the truth and we must come to an intellectual concept (of a truth) to be accepted by Christ... But He IS The Truth. I see people running around going nuts concerning "truths" in scripture and there seems to be many places in scripture that leave healthy questions for all of us (who hasn't had questions?) These questions cause our heart to seek to understand these things and this is a good place to be, not bad place. I'm very trustful of our good Heavenly Father through Christ to teach us, He is capable to do this. I don't need to inspect anyones understanding and compare it to mine or feel threatened if someone differs from me, I kind of look forward to this personally because as I grow in Christ I sense an intimate fellowship with Him inwardly but I still have questions in regards to scripture. Some are perfectly clear to me others are a bit dimmly lit on certain things and "others" dark in regards to my understanding of them (though others have posted their what they think) I've learned to wait for the one that screams YES! or Amen! within me, we've all had those. But weve also had the ones that draw our interest and we were not quite sure at all but felt that curious prompting to consider something and in these things we also get to know our Fathers working in us in how He leads us personally (to hear His voice) or to get familiar with how He works within us. Everyones got to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit within them and Paul and Barnabas split, I think the "splitting" is essential because I think we learn to listen to our own inner voice (of the Spirit)learning of the various ways He manifests himself in the entire body of Christ, and that comes with trust in a good and loving Father who works all things together for good to those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. If we feel differently or are unclear or whatever the case will be, thankfully He knows our hearts are toward Him and He brings us back, theres really no need to get twisted in knots over anything unless you haven't learned to trust Him completely, and thats not even a bad place to be but experiencially we come to put our trust in Him moreso as we begin to see more of the love of God understanding in ourselves that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ.

Just "simply" test all things allowing others to do the same so they can build within them their spiritual senses in order to discern for themselves.

In Him Kim

 

[Star]

Ok... I'm lost, I hate numbers in every form. Whats this again? It speaks of "the eleven" minus Thomas (NOT the twelve)

Thirteen? (lost?)

1 Corinth 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, THEN of the twelve: ?

Just want to freely confess I was a terrible math student (if its not painfully obvious already) and can't get "numbers" no matter how small and simplified they seem. If you guys only knew just how I balance my check book you would die from laughter (works though, I never bounced a check).

I'm lost on this though, anyone want to help me?

Thanks

In Him Kim

[ May 26, 2002, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: Star ]

 

[Star]

I've been thinking about this... Why does John say in Revelation, "I John" in three different places? He is able to write the book of revelation without any problems in mentioning his own name (IF John is the "disciple" in question in the gospel of John) only because of the fact that that seems obvious to John to do so when in fact Revelation shows otherwise?

Just say Ken is incorrect, then why does John mention it is "I John" in "Revelation" but seems to speak differently in the gospel concerning "himself" IF it indeed is John?



In Him Kim

[ May 26, 2002, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Star ]