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Did Judas repent?
- Thread starter AITB
- Start date
Gina's right. It is important to expose the error, along with the comments from those who seem to agree with them.
BTW, those little ones get bigger & bigger all the time. It's hard to look at my daughter & remember when she was 3. You ask how old she is, & it would take her a few moments to arrange her 3 little fingers to stick up from her hand, & show you. Now she just says..."Im 10 & a half".
BTW, those little ones get bigger & bigger all the time. It's hard to look at my daughter & remember when she was 3. You ask how old she is, & it would take her a few moments to arrange her 3 little fingers to stick up from her hand, & show you. Now she just says..."Im 10 & a half".
Actually Gina I don't have a theology except Christ and Him crucified, but I enjoy looking into His word. I thought it very interesting that God makes void the agreement with Hell and IS deaths destruction, but I also see that these two things are thrown into the lake of fire, so I ask (with the inquiring heart that I have been given) how can both be true? I think I think on these rather seriously, I used to have God in my back pocket, and if you'd ask me something I'd give you a scripture sure that I was right, if you dared to differ on that you were obstinate and disobedient, you know the mentality 
But some things were not panning out in the overall picture, I was wondering about so many things if it were just one thing I probrobly would have made a human excuse for it and jammed it into my theology to make it fit somehow, but that wasn't happening. So I started to rebuild keeping Christ as the Center.
So I wondered... If scripture was of no private interpretation the interpretation can be seen in scripture comparing spiritual with spiritual I looked at verses where fire was seen looking closely to the surrounding text. Fire is seen as "The Word of God", "Is not my Word a fire"? Its also a hammer that breaketh a Rock to peices, broken bread? Broken Rock? Who is this speaking of? I then understood Jesus said the scriptures testified of HIM. I wondered on these things. God also is a consuming fire and there is the "lake of fire" which is referenced as the Second death. Death of death? Life? Don't know I'm still looking line upon line at these things, see how my reasoning with the word goes?
So whats is attributed to the lake of fire? Theres Torment, Fire, Brimstone and its Eternal.
These things are attributes of God himself minus the torment which is seen in the gospels when the demon pocessed man thinks Christ has come to torment him but the reality of it is Christ had not. In other places it speaks of tormenting yourself by statute "for ever". It talks elsewhere about those who fear are not made "perfect in love" and that fear hath Torment, but the fear of the Lord is just the BEGINING OF WISDOM, but perfect love casts out fear. Hell was prepared (as Jesus said for the Devil and His angels but we see in Revelation that the torment was in presence the Lamb and His Holy ones... These things make me look more closely at how I hear whats being said. So these things are being "considered". Jesus did not come to torment that man but set him free, I also note they were tormented IN NOT BY the Lamb (Every perfect word to the rescue).
Back to "The fire" I looked at the second death having no power over the believer (or overcomers) it will not HURT YOU... Ofcourse the question is what is it to the unbeliever, these things are also waiting to be further looked at. In scripture I see the three men in the fire, they are NOT HURT, theres the same word again, so I look more closely, we are saved as yet by fire, one can suffer loss but be saved BY IT. Theres tons of scriptures showing God "melting people" and they are NOT aware of it, a burning bush that does not burn up, or someone being in the fire but felt nothing, look into these things. I see a reaccurrent theme. Theres also the parable of the Rich man to consider. So I'm looking at the sum of Gods word and not just a singular verse making anything stand on one verse alone. "Fire" or Gods word AS God Himself is, is Eternal both seen as a fire, and the word was God, the two are ONE.
Brimstome is seen as part of the lake of fire, but His Breath is as brimstone, Christ BREATHED on them and they recieved the Holy Spirit, so I can see that His Breath (Typed as Brimstone) is really speaking of the Holy Spirit or the presence of God (In the presence of the Lamb).
So I don't have a theology on this my questions continue to build every day as there are new things to consider as they cause me to inquire even more. Its my questions not my theology (Because I don't have one except Christ Crucified) that get people to think I'm being blasphemous but I'm not, I desire to understand and look at EVERYTHING weighing carefully what is said, its actually been a wonderful place to be not knowing anything, before (my pride)would not allow that. That which I affirmed in my head was not settled in my heart and I want it to be
So I'm not looking at revelation and coming to my own conclusions (which are not reached yet) and putting my opinions there but considering the full counself of God understanding now that God used similitudes as stated in scripture, Jesus parables and John the revelation of Jesus Christ and looking at the images pregnant with meaning and comparing these with what is written elsewhere in scripture, trying not to put out my fleshly hand in steadying the Ark of the Testimony, God needs no help from me. I also know that the meditation of His word brings light and if I seek I will find what my heart desires to understand.
So forgive me for not posting near 3am this morning so I can be a well rested (or a semi rested) mommy Its not avoiding the question its to keep my face from smacking into the keyboards I do recall you requesting an "in the morning response to Ken once"? Gina I couldn't have possibly seen how you could have tackled Kens post at 3am It was a doozy! I would have thought you needed a couple of mornings for that one!
Anyway theres just a bit of the direction my thoughts are running, but nothing concrete just questions still building as I remain open to them
In Him Kim
But some things were not panning out in the overall picture, I was wondering about so many things if it were just one thing I probrobly would have made a human excuse for it and jammed it into my theology to make it fit somehow, but that wasn't happening. So I started to rebuild keeping Christ as the Center.So I wondered... If scripture was of no private interpretation the interpretation can be seen in scripture comparing spiritual with spiritual I looked at verses where fire was seen looking closely to the surrounding text. Fire is seen as "The Word of God", "Is not my Word a fire"? Its also a hammer that breaketh a Rock to peices, broken bread? Broken Rock? Who is this speaking of? I then understood Jesus said the scriptures testified of HIM. I wondered on these things. God also is a consuming fire and there is the "lake of fire" which is referenced as the Second death. Death of death? Life? Don't know I'm still looking line upon line at these things, see how my reasoning with the word goes?
So whats is attributed to the lake of fire? Theres Torment, Fire, Brimstone and its Eternal.
These things are attributes of God himself minus the torment which is seen in the gospels when the demon pocessed man thinks Christ has come to torment him but the reality of it is Christ had not. In other places it speaks of tormenting yourself by statute "for ever". It talks elsewhere about those who fear are not made "perfect in love" and that fear hath Torment, but the fear of the Lord is just the BEGINING OF WISDOM, but perfect love casts out fear. Hell was prepared (as Jesus said for the Devil and His angels but we see in Revelation that the torment was in presence the Lamb and His Holy ones... These things make me look more closely at how I hear whats being said. So these things are being "considered". Jesus did not come to torment that man but set him free, I also note they were tormented IN NOT BY the Lamb (Every perfect word to the rescue).
Back to "The fire" I looked at the second death having no power over the believer (or overcomers) it will not HURT YOU... Ofcourse the question is what is it to the unbeliever, these things are also waiting to be further looked at. In scripture I see the three men in the fire, they are NOT HURT, theres the same word again, so I look more closely, we are saved as yet by fire, one can suffer loss but be saved BY IT. Theres tons of scriptures showing God "melting people" and they are NOT aware of it, a burning bush that does not burn up, or someone being in the fire but felt nothing, look into these things. I see a reaccurrent theme. Theres also the parable of the Rich man to consider. So I'm looking at the sum of Gods word and not just a singular verse making anything stand on one verse alone. "Fire" or Gods word AS God Himself is, is Eternal both seen as a fire, and the word was God, the two are ONE.
Brimstome is seen as part of the lake of fire, but His Breath is as brimstone, Christ BREATHED on them and they recieved the Holy Spirit, so I can see that His Breath (Typed as Brimstone) is really speaking of the Holy Spirit or the presence of God (In the presence of the Lamb).
So I don't have a theology on this my questions continue to build every day as there are new things to consider as they cause me to inquire even more. Its my questions not my theology (Because I don't have one except Christ Crucified) that get people to think I'm being blasphemous but I'm not, I desire to understand and look at EVERYTHING weighing carefully what is said, its actually been a wonderful place to be not knowing anything, before (my pride)would not allow that. That which I affirmed in my head was not settled in my heart and I want it to be
So I'm not looking at revelation and coming to my own conclusions (which are not reached yet) and putting my opinions there but considering the full counself of God understanding now that God used similitudes as stated in scripture, Jesus parables and John the revelation of Jesus Christ and looking at the images pregnant with meaning and comparing these with what is written elsewhere in scripture, trying not to put out my fleshly hand in steadying the Ark of the Testimony, God needs no help from me. I also know that the meditation of His word brings light and if I seek I will find what my heart desires to understand.
So forgive me for not posting near 3am this morning so I can be a well rested (or a semi rested) mommy
Its not avoiding the question its to keep my face from smacking into the keyboards I do recall you requesting an "in the morning response to Ken once"? Gina I couldn't have possibly seen how you could have tackled Kens post at 3am It was a doozy! I would have thought you needed a couple of mornings for that one! Anyway theres just a bit of the direction my thoughts are running, but nothing concrete just questions still building as I remain open to them
In Him Kim
K
ken1burton
Guest
Gina.
We do not build Doctrine. We search it out. Then we construct what God has designed.
(EXODUS 25:9) According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it. (KJV)
God actually was the First "Code Inforcer." He specified exactly how the Tabernacle, then the House was to be built. This also goes for the day of the cross built as a house.
Seeing All the Similitudes, Parables, Dreams, Prophecies are for the day of the cross. And that you said you can not build Doctrines with these things. The Verses in the Scripture is exactly what God did build with.
Jonah is a Similitude, a Similitude even Jesus used Himself. "As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a whale, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three night in the heart of the Earth.
Jesus was Crucified on Friday, in hell on Saturday, and rose Sunday. As the world sees it that is. God took Good Friday out of time, we did not.
AS JOHAN. And Jonah is a similitude for the day as three pictures of the day. One Physical day, seen as three days and three nights.
(JONAH 3:3) So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey. (KJV)
(JONAH 3:4) And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. (KJV)
The day of the cross as 3 days, or as Nineveh. And we go to the first picture or day.
The First picture is the day as 4 6-hour periods, the people as WATERS. Like a River (Eden) divided into 4 heads. The People Angry as Waves roaring. When the weeds are wrapped around Jonah's head in the whale, that is the crown of thorns upon Jesus.
Remember the Gourd? It has a nice shadow. So did death when Jesus had been on the cross for hours.
(2KINGS 4:39) And one went out into the field to gather herbs, and found a wild vine, and gathered thereof wild gourds his lap full, and came and shred them into the pot of pottage: for they knew them not. (KJV)
(2KINGS 4:40) So they poured out for the men to eat. And it came to pass, as they were eating of the pottage, that they cried out, and said, O thou man of God, there is death in the pot. And they could not eat thereof. (KJV)
The Day of the cross is also as a POT, And the Gourd places DEATH in the POT. Now we need a little WORM.
(JOB 25:6) How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm? (KJV)
The WORM Smites the Gourd=Jesus ends DEATH.
Jesus goes into hell, that is Scriptural. Remember "Where THEIR (JEsus) Worm dieth not."?
Now about NOAH. He liked WATER a lot. Noah has THREE sons. So looking at Noah is as the full day before it is divided, looking at he three sons is the day as 3 pictures. The Second picture is seeing Jesus in hell.
Jesus is the ARK, The people as waters lift up the ARK.
Flood = similitude for the day of the cross, Jesus is the Ark, We're in Ark
Jesus=The Ark. People=Waters,Rev 17:l5=Noahs Ark.Gen 7:17,Mat 24:37
2Sam 22:5 When the waves of death compassed Me, The floods of
Ungodly men made Me afraid; The Sorrows of hell compassed Me=Cross
Psa 98:8 Let the floods clap their hands=When Jesus placed on the cross.
(PSALMS 26:2) The Lord sitteth upon the flood; yea, the Lord sitteth king for ever. (KJV)=Jesus on the Cross.
REVELATION 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: =Jesus the day of the cross, Whoredom=reaching outside Israel=for world.
I pasted the verses that fit here. They are written out already and are searchable.
God Inspired the SCRIPTURES. He placed there what He wanted us to build with. Jonah did not just happen to end up there.
Here are His Wings with Him as He is in the Clouds.
(ISAIAH 44:22) I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. (KJV)
The day of the cross as 4 6-hour periods is as 4 beasts with 6- wings. The White horse is the first seal from sunset to Midnight. Jesus takes sin upon Himself, and this is seeing (If you can see it) the Rider on the White Horse, coming in the Clouds.
This doctrine is only being built because it is written in the Blueprint. And the Bible is the Blueprint.
Running out of things to say can be useful. A good time to listen. For what false doctrine can not be spoken against using the Scriptures, and that does not seem to run out of things to say.
Gina. You are right: "Never agree to disagree." Jesus did not, and we are to follow Christ. Jesus might have left a few seeds to die, and then bear fruit later, He never stopped planting seeds.
(ECCLESIASTES 10:13) The beginning of the words of his mouth is foolishness: and the end of his talk is mischievous madness. (KJV)
The end is of the old World, the beginning is the start of the new world He declareth the end from the Beginning=It is FINISHED. Which is Mischievous madness. Finished which just starts bringing the World into the Knowledge of Christ.
Now for the Foolishness: What was His first words after the Resurrection?
(JOHN 20:15) Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. (KJV)
I guess when you know the answer to the Question you are asking, It is a bit foolish.
Who God is? A loving God who has made Himself as a enemy and told us to Love our Enemies. And a loving God who has not thrown a rattlesnake in the playpen. No eveil creature out there to get our souls.
God said "All Souls are mine saith the Lord. The Soul that sinneth (Jesus) shall die."
Mr. Curtis.
Ten and a half? Cute, How can you think she is ten and a half years old when you full well know she was getting older and older every day she was in the Womb? HOW OLD IS SHE? You might not know the moment she was conceived, But at Birth she did not start life. Only the Courts think something like that.
Here, Let me put this in Electronic terms, Your positive is a negative.
It is not what the World thinks, it is what IS. Truth can only answer "how old a person is?" by starting at Conception.
The FEAR of the LORD is the beginning of Wisdom.
Wisdom is the day of the cross built as 7 time periods, the first or beginning is Sunset to Midnight, and Jesus is in a GARDEN.
(PROVERBS 9:1) Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars: (KJV)
(LUKE 22:42) Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. (KJV)
(LUKE 22:43) And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. (KJV)
(LUKE 22:44) And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. (KJV)
Fear of the Lord is what Jesus was feeling as the day started. Wisdom is building her house.
(PROVERBS 24:3) Through wisdom is an house builded; and by understanding it is established: (KJV)
(PROVERBS 24:4) And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches. (KJV)
When searching out the Lake of fire, see that it is also the Second death, and it does not hurt the Overcomers of the Church at Smyrna. They believe, it does not hurt to be immersed in God's Word like as a fire.
(REVELATION 2:11) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. (KJV)
(REVELATION 20:14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (KJV)
(HOSEA 13:14) I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (KJV)
Death ended. Immersed into God's word the day of the cross as God fulfilles every prophecy.
(LUKE 18:31) Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (KJV)
EVERY EVERY EVERY Prophecy. Daniel, Step forward and state your prophecy which has to be fulfilled the day of the cross.
(DANIEL 9:24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (KJV)
Ken1burton
We do not build Doctrine. We search it out. Then we construct what God has designed.
(EXODUS 25:9) According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it. (KJV)
God actually was the First "Code Inforcer." He specified exactly how the Tabernacle, then the House was to be built. This also goes for the day of the cross built as a house.
Seeing All the Similitudes, Parables, Dreams, Prophecies are for the day of the cross. And that you said you can not build Doctrines with these things. The Verses in the Scripture is exactly what God did build with.
Jonah is a Similitude, a Similitude even Jesus used Himself. "As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a whale, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three night in the heart of the Earth.
Jesus was Crucified on Friday, in hell on Saturday, and rose Sunday. As the world sees it that is. God took Good Friday out of time, we did not.
AS JOHAN. And Jonah is a similitude for the day as three pictures of the day. One Physical day, seen as three days and three nights.
(JONAH 3:3) So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey. (KJV)
(JONAH 3:4) And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. (KJV)
The day of the cross as 3 days, or as Nineveh. And we go to the first picture or day.
The First picture is the day as 4 6-hour periods, the people as WATERS. Like a River (Eden) divided into 4 heads. The People Angry as Waves roaring. When the weeds are wrapped around Jonah's head in the whale, that is the crown of thorns upon Jesus.
Remember the Gourd? It has a nice shadow. So did death when Jesus had been on the cross for hours.
(2KINGS 4:39) And one went out into the field to gather herbs, and found a wild vine, and gathered thereof wild gourds his lap full, and came and shred them into the pot of pottage: for they knew them not. (KJV)
(2KINGS 4:40) So they poured out for the men to eat. And it came to pass, as they were eating of the pottage, that they cried out, and said, O thou man of God, there is death in the pot. And they could not eat thereof. (KJV)
The Day of the cross is also as a POT, And the Gourd places DEATH in the POT. Now we need a little WORM.
(JOB 25:6) How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm? (KJV)
The WORM Smites the Gourd=Jesus ends DEATH.
Jesus goes into hell, that is Scriptural. Remember "Where THEIR (JEsus) Worm dieth not."?
Now about NOAH. He liked WATER a lot. Noah has THREE sons. So looking at Noah is as the full day before it is divided, looking at he three sons is the day as 3 pictures. The Second picture is seeing Jesus in hell.
Jesus is the ARK, The people as waters lift up the ARK.
Flood = similitude for the day of the cross, Jesus is the Ark, We're in Ark
Jesus=The Ark. People=Waters,Rev 17:l5=Noahs Ark.Gen 7:17,Mat 24:37
2Sam 22:5 When the waves of death compassed Me, The floods of
Ungodly men made Me afraid; The Sorrows of hell compassed Me=Cross
Psa 98:8 Let the floods clap their hands=When Jesus placed on the cross.
(PSALMS 26:2) The Lord sitteth upon the flood; yea, the Lord sitteth king for ever. (KJV)=Jesus on the Cross.
REVELATION 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: =Jesus the day of the cross, Whoredom=reaching outside Israel=for world.
I pasted the verses that fit here. They are written out already and are searchable.
God Inspired the SCRIPTURES. He placed there what He wanted us to build with. Jonah did not just happen to end up there.
Here are His Wings with Him as He is in the Clouds.
(ISAIAH 44:22) I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. (KJV)
The day of the cross as 4 6-hour periods is as 4 beasts with 6- wings. The White horse is the first seal from sunset to Midnight. Jesus takes sin upon Himself, and this is seeing (If you can see it) the Rider on the White Horse, coming in the Clouds.
This doctrine is only being built because it is written in the Blueprint. And the Bible is the Blueprint.
Running out of things to say can be useful. A good time to listen. For what false doctrine can not be spoken against using the Scriptures, and that does not seem to run out of things to say.
Gina. You are right: "Never agree to disagree." Jesus did not, and we are to follow Christ. Jesus might have left a few seeds to die, and then bear fruit later, He never stopped planting seeds.
(ECCLESIASTES 10:13) The beginning of the words of his mouth is foolishness: and the end of his talk is mischievous madness. (KJV)
The end is of the old World, the beginning is the start of the new world He declareth the end from the Beginning=It is FINISHED. Which is Mischievous madness. Finished which just starts bringing the World into the Knowledge of Christ.
Now for the Foolishness: What was His first words after the Resurrection?
(JOHN 20:15) Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. (KJV)
I guess when you know the answer to the Question you are asking, It is a bit foolish.
Who God is? A loving God who has made Himself as a enemy and told us to Love our Enemies. And a loving God who has not thrown a rattlesnake in the playpen. No eveil creature out there to get our souls.
God said "All Souls are mine saith the Lord. The Soul that sinneth (Jesus) shall die."
Mr. Curtis.
Ten and a half? Cute, How can you think she is ten and a half years old when you full well know she was getting older and older every day she was in the Womb? HOW OLD IS SHE? You might not know the moment she was conceived, But at Birth she did not start life. Only the Courts think something like that.
Here, Let me put this in Electronic terms, Your positive is a negative.
It is not what the World thinks, it is what IS. Truth can only answer "how old a person is?" by starting at Conception.
The FEAR of the LORD is the beginning of Wisdom.
Wisdom is the day of the cross built as 7 time periods, the first or beginning is Sunset to Midnight, and Jesus is in a GARDEN.
(PROVERBS 9:1) Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars: (KJV)
(LUKE 22:42) Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. (KJV)
(LUKE 22:43) And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. (KJV)
(LUKE 22:44) And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. (KJV)
Fear of the Lord is what Jesus was feeling as the day started. Wisdom is building her house.
(PROVERBS 24:3) Through wisdom is an house builded; and by understanding it is established: (KJV)
(PROVERBS 24:4) And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches. (KJV)
When searching out the Lake of fire, see that it is also the Second death, and it does not hurt the Overcomers of the Church at Smyrna. They believe, it does not hurt to be immersed in God's Word like as a fire.
(REVELATION 2:11) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. (KJV)
(REVELATION 20:14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (KJV)
(HOSEA 13:14) I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (KJV)
Death ended. Immersed into God's word the day of the cross as God fulfilles every prophecy.
(LUKE 18:31) Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (KJV)
EVERY EVERY EVERY Prophecy. Daniel, Step forward and state your prophecy which has to be fulfilled the day of the cross.
(DANIEL 9:24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (KJV)
Ken1burton
That is the problem, Ken, you do not build doctrine, as God says you should:
Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Star, in no way do I expect you to reply within a certain amount of time, and if it ever seemed that I requested a reply in a certain amount of time the post was misread, or I had seen a normal posting time and figured that's when the person would post again.
As for me posting at 3am, I'm a wonderful insomniac, lol. Also, look at the topic of "screen names" (general discussions I think) and you'll start to get an idea on how many different forums I post on. I normally skim when I'm on at night and try to save more serious replies for when I'm up and the kids are sleeping so that I can post without being interrupted. Between all this and more I myself sometimes take a while to respond or even forget about topics, so I certainly try not to expect instantaneous responses from others.
On doctrine and theology. Everyone has a basic believe system and whatnot (call it what you will), that CAN and SHOULD be "upgraded" as they learn more, it's not a BAD THING. I happen to believe that yours is headed and Ken's is at a dangerous place, and I'm attempting to show why, (however inadequate my abilities to communicate may be, not that it matters much because truth eventually speaks for itself).
And as for the other last few posts, I'll probably be in around 3am. to respond.
Gina
As for me posting at 3am, I'm a wonderful insomniac, lol. Also, look at the topic of "screen names" (general discussions I think) and you'll start to get an idea on how many different forums I post on. I normally skim when I'm on at night and try to save more serious replies for when I'm up and the kids are sleeping so that I can post without being interrupted. Between all this and more I myself sometimes take a while to respond or even forget about topics, so I certainly try not to expect instantaneous responses from others.
On doctrine and theology. Everyone has a basic believe system and whatnot (call it what you will), that CAN and SHOULD be "upgraded" as they learn more, it's not a BAD THING. I happen to believe that yours is headed and Ken's is at a dangerous place, and I'm attempting to show why, (however inadequate my abilities to communicate may be, not that it matters much because truth eventually speaks for itself).
And as for the other last few posts, I'll probably be in around 3am. to respond.
Gina
Gina,
No problem, I must have read your post wrong, thinking you wanted me to reply faster but I'm even more glad that your an incurable insomniac with children Gina I appreciate you in Christ so far you have approached this debate with a commendable Spirit, I also had your same fears for Ken, I spoke on and off with him (as I have said before) for a year and a half trying to win him thinking he was not aware of the verses that said contrary, to my surprise over and over he showed me how they fit in... let me tell you that conversing with him wasn't an easy feat. My agenda was to convert Ken, Ken had no agenda like that with me because he sees everyone saved... Don't ask, I don't know I'm looking into and searching out other things and right now I can only know what you know, that I don't see this clearly so this is NOT my truth, but things come up in our conversations and I "consider them" seriously and post "questions" which are percieved as doctrines which is untrue. Most of my questions taken to other forums as well are unanswered, no one seems to know. Should I believe these are good questions? Should I drop them and presume as everyone else does but inwardly its driving me nuts to truly understand? This goes way deeper then that and I will not post what is going on in my heart because I know the steriotypical responses,.I'm not repeating the "Job" scenario, so I withold my heart in posting so that others (seeking blood) would not find "their" opportunity because of my stupidity.
But there is a whole lot more then what is being posted in the present moment. Until it can be backed by scripture so that I both understand it, am confident in it and can present it (after all arguments fail against it, its not mine YET. But the further I look the questions against my former understanding continues to build. I'm looking at things I did not want to look at (in the face) and looking at things I never even saw in scripture before. I'm looking to see how Christ was presented and hidden, how God chose to speak to the prophets and in all these things remembering they find their substance in Christ. Theres too much for me to write when it comes to the multitude of things I'm looking at, but you've been a real gem in Christ, and maybe we'll see each other on other threads, maybe helping me to answer some of those questions.
I'm posting in my attic, and losing my mind its over 110 degrees up here, I usually don't post long in the hot weather or rarely, I find myself wanting to say something in order to get off as fast as I can, verses something I really want to say when I'm "downstairs" in the air conditioning
Hopefully the wee hours might be cooler
In Him Kim
No problem, I must have read your post wrong, thinking you wanted me to reply faster but I'm even more glad that your an incurable insomniac with children
Gina I appreciate you in Christ so far you have approached this debate with a commendable Spirit, I also had your same fears for Ken, I spoke on and off with him (as I have said before) for a year and a half trying to win him thinking he was not aware of the verses that said contrary, to my surprise over and over he showed me how they fit in... let me tell you that conversing with him wasn't an easy feat. My agenda was to convert Ken, Ken had no agenda like that with me because he sees everyone saved... Don't ask, I don't know I'm looking into and searching out other things and right now I can only know what you know, that I don't see this clearly so this is NOT my truth, but things come up in our conversations and I "consider them" seriously and post "questions" which are percieved as doctrines which is untrue. Most of my questions taken to other forums as well are unanswered, no one seems to know. Should I believe these are good questions? Should I drop them and presume as everyone else does but inwardly its driving me nuts to truly understand? This goes way deeper then that and I will not post what is going on in my heart because I know the steriotypical responses,.I'm not repeating the "Job" scenario, so I withold my heart in posting so that others (seeking blood) would not find "their" opportunity because of my stupidity.But there is a whole lot more then what is being posted in the present moment. Until it can be backed by scripture so that I both understand it, am confident in it and can present it (after all arguments fail against it, its not mine YET. But the further I look the questions against my former understanding continues to build. I'm looking at things I did not want to look at (in the face) and looking at things I never even saw in scripture before. I'm looking to see how Christ was presented and hidden, how God chose to speak to the prophets and in all these things remembering they find their substance in Christ. Theres too much for me to write when it comes to the multitude of things I'm looking at, but you've been a real gem in Christ, and maybe we'll see each other on other threads, maybe helping me to answer some of those questions.
I'm posting in my attic, and losing my mind its over 110 degrees up here, I usually don't post long in the hot weather or rarely, I find myself wanting to say something in order to get off as fast as I can, verses something I really want to say when I'm "downstairs" in the air conditioning
Hopefully the wee hours might be cooler
In Him Kim
I understand what you're saying here, Kim.
But, Ken does have an agenda - to promote his own understanding of the Bible. That's just as much an agenda as it would be, were he trying to 'convert' people.
And to the extent other people here think his own theology is heretical, they are not going to respond with openness to his attempts to promote it...
You know, if you allegorize enough, you can make the Bible say pretty much anything you want to. Someone can do this and then try to persuade you that their allegorization is 'the truth'.
Does it really make sense to you, Kim, that God waited until Ken was born to show the rest of Christendom that the Bible is really just one big allegory of the one day Jesus died (excuse me Ken if I haven't quite got your theology right - I haven't studied it much)?
Does that make sense to you, really, that God chose to hide 'the truth' - until Ken came on the scene?
Is Ken the human that God has picked to reveal his truth to?
Does that seem likely to you? No offense to Ken but - is that how God works - everyone is wrong except Ken?
If Ken has some revelation way beyond other people, why is God not convincing everyone of it by backing Ken up with some sort of signs and wonders? Do you think He'd let such a great revelation be so unbacked up by indication that "this is it! This is The Truth!"
I'm not trying to be sarcastic - really I'm not.
But...think about it...how does God work??? Is this really how???
Helen,
I understand exactly where your coming from concerning this. I learned alot about myself and the acceptance of others who share differently. At first to be perfectly honest, I thought it was blasphemous and heretical in how it is first perceived, I'm right with you on that, I've been there so I'm very understanding to the feelings of others because I shared the same thoughts myself.
All I know is that I had an agenda and it was to turn Ken from his obvious error. I say, "he had no agenda" but I don't know that for sure, so I should set that aside, perhaps he did maybe not? But He would never push anything on me and never e-mail me unless I e-mailed him first but would always respond cordially and a bit more personally via e-mail. I don't follow Ken, I consider him my freind, but as I have openly posted we differ on alot of things and I'm not willing to let these go because to me what I have been given is precious to me and come from my own time with God and time spent in His word. But I do realize everyone shares from the scriptures and Ken included. I test out everyone, no one excluded and hold fast to that which is good. So the only thing I cling to in my theology is Christ Crucified to be perfectly honest, because He personally IS The Truth and the Wisdom of God, He is both of these to us without a doubt.
What is biblically wrong with allegorizing? Or seeing those things written as types, paterns, shadows or similitudes? The scriptures support this, is what I'm saying in many places. Yes, you could possible make it say whatever you want it to say by placing your own interpretation over the symbol but if one would compare spiritual with spiritual looking at the full counsel of God carefully the Holy Spirit is more then capable to lead one to see the Testimony of Jesus Christ which is the Spirit of prophesy, problem is, no one has in my experience extracted the Testimony of Jesus Christ and it seems to be about anything but, so I question anything that does not bring forth Christ. I also question anything that attribute the Serpent to Him, I don't at all take this lightly but there are alot of things which make me consider this in light of whats written and other things that seem to say this is not a possibility but after much searching and considering the full counsel I'm weighing these things out knowing in my heart that because these things are similitudes I'm not attributing to God wrong doing or sin but creativity within the picture, I don't see a literal Serpent talking to some lady in a garden over a literal tree called the knowledge of good and evil. I try to see in scripture where each can be defined in other pictures looking in many places where the words were pulled over into other books to compare what other writers of scripture were seeing.
For example "Job" Adam covered his nakedness, Job calls hiding his trangression in his bosom. Here one book Genesis is brought over into the spiritual understanding of another book and defines what that nakedness really was.... Obvious to us we know the whole thing is expounded on already by the appostles. Also Paul hints at the tree of the knowledge of the tree of good and evil is the law not by direct implication but by demonstration. Speaking of the law in many ways to show that those things in the garden I believe were only pictures (which we all or most of us agree on) finds its fulfillment in Christ. All my other posts list the things I was considering inside each picture, The Serpent, Tree, What enticed the woman about the Tree, what they knew after they ate, the curse that followed then to look elsewhere for the more vivid picture speaking of the same thing in different ways elsewhere. Its the same theme Law verses grace and truth in Christ. Trees with fruit with seed in them and the outer outworking of these things seen in people who again are now figurative. Firstborn stands for the flesh the second born of the Spirit and the principle seen between these two. Theres another layer to consider, when these are seen but another and another and they (to me) lead me back to the Cross, always have and in this there is nothing to fear.
Now Ken shows the Cross differently, he also shows alot of other things which are consumed into the Cross I have never considered and at first I thought as everyone else, if this had been two years ago I would have been right behind some of those ridiculing Ken. But I find no leading to do so. I simply have "questions" myself with nothing I can say firmly that I believe what Ken is shown... I have my own intimacy with Our Father through Christ and I really don't need any man to teach me, but I think the Body of Christ is thought provoking and I see nothing wrong with testing anything, I certainly don't know everything but we all have these secret questions in our hearts that we may never tell our brothers and sisters because we all know the futility of doing this (learned from experience with that one). So your alone in your thoughts almost like Job arguing within yourself about things which are presented. Gods personal nature to me inwardly is beautiful and full of love beyond anything I can describe, you'd think (or I would think) He would make sense of my questions in this union with Him, that which I see of Him inwardly appears to contradict the harshness I see in scripture, my questions remain and He doesn't answer concerning those things. These are things I have to look into all the while knowing in my heart how good and wonderful He truly is. Is there something I'm not seeing? We've all had these right? Until a revelation comes and something really beautiful is revealed and confirmed in scripture but its magnified by the lense of love and our perspective changes, same verses you saw before but through his eyes they are percieved through a washed lense and in seeing these things through that lense we (inside ourselves) know that nothing can truly separate us from His love including all those things you once thought could. This stops me in my tracts, the only thing I know is that He is love and merciful and His mercy triumphs over judgement, indeed I know this myself in many ways. These things are very difficult to write about because your sharing from old perspectives, new perspectives, from scripture and from intimate knowing of the Lord within us who is growing us all up into the fullness of Christ. Only thing is you go backwards in regards to growing.... When your young in the Lord, you think you know "something" but as you grow in Him you begin to determine you don't know because in your heart you know thats true and theres great freedom in that, not only that but pride is ceasing in light of this. That which is imperfect is fading away and love (his perfect love) is begin to awaken and bloom within.
I think we have liberty in Christ, he asks, "how does it read to you"? I don't understand alot of what he writes but I glean from in in our freindship as I would from anyone in Christ, but I'm not interested in judging anyone, I do judge though, I find I'm very intolerant of judgement itself (my quirk/sin whatever anyone wants to call it, openly confessed). But I really do like listening to many different thoughts the diverse body has concerning their interpretation as they see it, could you imagine Peter? He walked with the Lord and here comes Paul sharing things that were hard to understand , Take Johns book of revelation... the whole of church is so divided on the interpretation even within some breeds, a book which is full of symbols has become interpreted by many using the CNN news reports. I want to test these things out personally and search them out knowing my own questions in my heart are sincere and with integrity use scripture and see Jesus Christ as its Wisdom. I just simply think theres alot more in there then what is presently seen and the church herself is divided on the interpetation most of these are just accepting what others say without question, so I approach these things hopefully ridding myself of any previous perspective. Sorry this was so long, did I answer you correctly, I'm sweating like crazy in my attic as I write lol!
In Him Kim
I understand exactly where your coming from concerning this. I learned alot about myself and the acceptance of others who share differently. At first to be perfectly honest, I thought it was blasphemous and heretical in how it is first perceived, I'm right with you on that, I've been there so I'm very understanding to the feelings of others because I shared the same thoughts myself.
All I know is that I had an agenda and it was to turn Ken from his obvious error. I say, "he had no agenda" but I don't know that for sure, so I should set that aside, perhaps he did maybe not? But He would never push anything on me and never e-mail me unless I e-mailed him first but would always respond cordially and a bit more personally via e-mail. I don't follow Ken, I consider him my freind, but as I have openly posted we differ on alot of things and I'm not willing to let these go because to me what I have been given is precious to me and come from my own time with God and time spent in His word. But I do realize everyone shares from the scriptures and Ken included. I test out everyone, no one excluded and hold fast to that which is good. So the only thing I cling to in my theology is Christ Crucified to be perfectly honest, because He personally IS The Truth and the Wisdom of God, He is both of these to us without a doubt.
What is biblically wrong with allegorizing? Or seeing those things written as types, paterns, shadows or similitudes? The scriptures support this, is what I'm saying in many places. Yes, you could possible make it say whatever you want it to say by placing your own interpretation over the symbol but if one would compare spiritual with spiritual looking at the full counsel of God carefully the Holy Spirit is more then capable to lead one to see the Testimony of Jesus Christ which is the Spirit of prophesy, problem is, no one has in my experience extracted the Testimony of Jesus Christ and it seems to be about anything but, so I question anything that does not bring forth Christ. I also question anything that attribute the Serpent to Him, I don't at all take this lightly but there are alot of things which make me consider this in light of whats written and other things that seem to say this is not a possibility but after much searching and considering the full counsel I'm weighing these things out knowing in my heart that because these things are similitudes I'm not attributing to God wrong doing or sin but creativity within the picture, I don't see a literal Serpent talking to some lady in a garden over a literal tree called the knowledge of good and evil. I try to see in scripture where each can be defined in other pictures looking in many places where the words were pulled over into other books to compare what other writers of scripture were seeing.
For example "Job" Adam covered his nakedness, Job calls hiding his trangression in his bosom. Here one book Genesis is brought over into the spiritual understanding of another book and defines what that nakedness really was.... Obvious to us we know the whole thing is expounded on already by the appostles. Also Paul hints at the tree of the knowledge of the tree of good and evil is the law not by direct implication but by demonstration. Speaking of the law in many ways to show that those things in the garden I believe were only pictures (which we all or most of us agree on) finds its fulfillment in Christ. All my other posts list the things I was considering inside each picture, The Serpent, Tree, What enticed the woman about the Tree, what they knew after they ate, the curse that followed then to look elsewhere for the more vivid picture speaking of the same thing in different ways elsewhere. Its the same theme Law verses grace and truth in Christ. Trees with fruit with seed in them and the outer outworking of these things seen in people who again are now figurative. Firstborn stands for the flesh the second born of the Spirit and the principle seen between these two. Theres another layer to consider, when these are seen but another and another and they (to me) lead me back to the Cross, always have and in this there is nothing to fear.
Now Ken shows the Cross differently, he also shows alot of other things which are consumed into the Cross I have never considered and at first I thought as everyone else, if this had been two years ago I would have been right behind some of those ridiculing Ken. But I find no leading to do so. I simply have "questions" myself with nothing I can say firmly that I believe what Ken is shown... I have my own intimacy with Our Father through Christ and I really don't need any man to teach me, but I think the Body of Christ is thought provoking and I see nothing wrong with testing anything, I certainly don't know everything but we all have these secret questions in our hearts that we may never tell our brothers and sisters because we all know the futility of doing this (learned from experience with that one). So your alone in your thoughts almost like Job arguing within yourself about things which are presented. Gods personal nature to me inwardly is beautiful and full of love beyond anything I can describe, you'd think (or I would think) He would make sense of my questions in this union with Him, that which I see of Him inwardly appears to contradict the harshness I see in scripture, my questions remain and He doesn't answer concerning those things. These are things I have to look into all the while knowing in my heart how good and wonderful He truly is. Is there something I'm not seeing? We've all had these right? Until a revelation comes and something really beautiful is revealed and confirmed in scripture but its magnified by the lense of love and our perspective changes, same verses you saw before but through his eyes they are percieved through a washed lense and in seeing these things through that lense we (inside ourselves) know that nothing can truly separate us from His love including all those things you once thought could. This stops me in my tracts, the only thing I know is that He is love and merciful and His mercy triumphs over judgement, indeed I know this myself in many ways. These things are very difficult to write about because your sharing from old perspectives, new perspectives, from scripture and from intimate knowing of the Lord within us who is growing us all up into the fullness of Christ. Only thing is you go backwards in regards to growing.... When your young in the Lord, you think you know "something" but as you grow in Him you begin to determine you don't know because in your heart you know thats true and theres great freedom in that, not only that but pride is ceasing in light of this. That which is imperfect is fading away and love (his perfect love) is begin to awaken and bloom within.
I think we have liberty in Christ, he asks, "how does it read to you"? I don't understand alot of what he writes but I glean from in in our freindship as I would from anyone in Christ, but I'm not interested in judging anyone, I do judge though, I find I'm very intolerant of judgement itself (my quirk/sin whatever anyone wants to call it, openly confessed). But I really do like listening to many different thoughts the diverse body has concerning their interpretation as they see it, could you imagine Peter? He walked with the Lord and here comes Paul sharing things that were hard to understand , Take Johns book of revelation... the whole of church is so divided on the interpretation even within some breeds, a book which is full of symbols has become interpreted by many using the CNN news reports. I want to test these things out personally and search them out knowing my own questions in my heart are sincere and with integrity use scripture and see Jesus Christ as its Wisdom. I just simply think theres alot more in there then what is presently seen and the church herself is divided on the interpetation most of these are just accepting what others say without question, so I approach these things hopefully ridding myself of any previous perspective. Sorry this was so long, did I answer you correctly, I'm sweating like crazy in my attic as I write lol!
In Him Kim
Hi Kim
There's only one verse that mentions similitudes, as I recall. Maybe I'm wrong.
Anyway, what's wrong with it?
That you get to a point where you don't need a Bible at all. That there are no limits on where you go. That you have freedom to end up believing whatever you like because the only at-all objective meaning of the Bible is the literal meaning.
You get to where the Bible is just incidental, rather than driving your beliefs. You get to where you have a belief system and all you need to do with the Bible is allegorize until it fits your beliefs.
Do you see what I am saying? That is what happens with people who allegorize. If allegorizing then everyone who allegorizes would be agreeing with Ken and we'd be saying "Wow - this must be quite clear in Scripture, that this is the 'right' understanding of it!" But they don't all agree, do they?
If I were Satan and the Bible was the means of saving people from hell, I'd think that allegorizing it until the message was changed into something entirely different, was a great idea. Then people can think they're believing it - and they are simply believing what they want to believe, that they made up!
No offense...I'm just trying to explain why people are so wary of allegories...
Helen,
No problem I'm not taking you wrong, or anything personally don't worry about that we can shoot straight with one another. But in regards to the word similitudes its once, in regards to "similitude" is used 11 times, then ofcourse its "spiritual with spiritual", letter kills, types, paterns, shadows, not realities but I have yet to find a single verse that says read me literally. God multiplied "visions" using similitudes He never said I speak literally not so far as my searching goes. Is it the OX Gods concerned with Paul asked? Surely he says this for us, yes. Adam is seen as a similitude, daughters after the similitude of a palace, men as grass, waters people, stones, plants, sand stars etc. These are spiritual words expressing spiritual truths, if you take them literally then you have only the need of the book itself and not the life the scriptures speak of, see how that argument can be turned around? I don't think the bible supports literal. In fact where the literal Temple manifested itself Paul calls it only a Copy. Theres a blueprint or patern God used this is what I seek to understand myself, I see nothing wrong with this. I wish someone could support literal from scripture whereas a thousand more support Spiritual.
Helen please clarify what you mean about the bible being incidental, and the driving beliefs part, could you be a bit more clear on that paragraph so I can answer you more clearly understanding better what you meant?
Helen,
Theres nothing wrong with anyone elses light (that which was measured by God to each one) we grow up in every aspect, and I'm not expected or you to believe anything other then Christ and Him crucified. No two people agree with each other even within their own circles, I believe what we all agree on is Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Actually seeing in part is scriptural as Paul said he saw in part and that which is considered imperfect is knowledge itself, actually it passes away, if I knew EVERYTHING, had it all right, my t's are crossed my i's dotted but lacked the very goal of our faith (which is love) I'm nothing, I'm nothing right now because I'm not walking in that perfect love. I see many others so literally correct letter by letter on interpretation but the sterility and coldnes of heart is felt, you know what I'm talking about, so correct but without love. Which is greater Love or thinking you know everything? I make no pretenses about knowing anything as I have said.
About changing the message I don't believe the message is changed. Jesus Christ is Perfect and became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God. That does not change, nor will I allow that to change as I perceive it.
Whats changed is the questions regarding the Serpent lifted up as Jesus referenced to Himself personally, I see in scripture that Lucifer was PERFECT (Just as we know Jesus is) and seen as One" who covers"... Well, so does Jesus. We also see that They were both perfect in all their ways UNTIL SIN was found in them... by this I can see Jesus on the Cross being crucified as God laid on Him the INIQUITY OF US ALL, our sins became His and His righteousness became ours, is this not true? Levithan, is seen as "meat", well so is Jesus Christ who had meat to eat that we knew not of. Theres tons of other verses in reference to these things I cannot help but to consider, theres alot of fairy tales that surround Satan, the Serpent, Etc. which are manmade, they are, and if you cut through those things which is hard if not almost impossible to do the questions might surface. But see "how" this is being drawn, others freak out not knowing how this is being seen or in the way its being drawn.
Now if I was saying believe like me excluding the Cross of Christ OR saying you need to believe in the Cross of Christ PLUS what I'm seeing (which is actually nothing but questions right now) that would be heresey, because Christ Crucified is the ONLY THING WE GLORY IN. That will never change not with me, just letting you know
Never an offense taken with you Helen
In Him Kim
No problem I'm not taking you wrong, or anything personally don't worry about that we can shoot straight with one another. But in regards to the word similitudes its once, in regards to "similitude" is used 11 times, then ofcourse its "spiritual with spiritual", letter kills, types, paterns, shadows, not realities but I have yet to find a single verse that says read me literally. God multiplied "visions" using similitudes He never said I speak literally not so far as my searching goes. Is it the OX Gods concerned with Paul asked? Surely he says this for us, yes. Adam is seen as a similitude, daughters after the similitude of a palace, men as grass, waters people, stones, plants, sand stars etc. These are spiritual words expressing spiritual truths, if you take them literally then you have only the need of the book itself and not the life the scriptures speak of, see how that argument can be turned around? I don't think the bible supports literal. In fact where the literal Temple manifested itself Paul calls it only a Copy. Theres a blueprint or patern God used this is what I seek to understand myself, I see nothing wrong with this. I wish someone could support literal from scripture whereas a thousand more support Spiritual.
Helen please clarify what you mean about the bible being incidental, and the driving beliefs part, could you be a bit more clear on that paragraph so I can answer you more clearly understanding better what you meant?
Helen,
Theres nothing wrong with anyone elses light (that which was measured by God to each one) we grow up in every aspect, and I'm not expected or you to believe anything other then Christ and Him crucified. No two people agree with each other even within their own circles, I believe what we all agree on is Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Actually seeing in part is scriptural as Paul said he saw in part and that which is considered imperfect is knowledge itself, actually it passes away, if I knew EVERYTHING, had it all right, my t's are crossed my i's dotted but lacked the very goal of our faith (which is love) I'm nothing, I'm nothing right now because I'm not walking in that perfect love. I see many others so literally correct letter by letter on interpretation but the sterility and coldnes of heart is felt, you know what I'm talking about, so correct but without love. Which is greater Love or thinking you know everything? I make no pretenses about knowing anything as I have said.
About changing the message I don't believe the message is changed. Jesus Christ is Perfect and became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God. That does not change, nor will I allow that to change as I perceive it.
Whats changed is the questions regarding the Serpent lifted up as Jesus referenced to Himself personally, I see in scripture that Lucifer was PERFECT (Just as we know Jesus is) and seen as One" who covers"... Well, so does Jesus. We also see that They were both perfect in all their ways UNTIL SIN was found in them... by this I can see Jesus on the Cross being crucified as God laid on Him the INIQUITY OF US ALL, our sins became His and His righteousness became ours, is this not true? Levithan, is seen as "meat", well so is Jesus Christ who had meat to eat that we knew not of. Theres tons of other verses in reference to these things I cannot help but to consider, theres alot of fairy tales that surround Satan, the Serpent, Etc. which are manmade, they are, and if you cut through those things which is hard if not almost impossible to do the questions might surface. But see "how" this is being drawn, others freak out not knowing how this is being seen or in the way its being drawn.
Now if I was saying believe like me excluding the Cross of Christ OR saying you need to believe in the Cross of Christ PLUS what I'm seeing (which is actually nothing but questions right now) that would be heresey, because Christ Crucified is the ONLY THING WE GLORY IN. That will never change not with me, just letting you know
Never an offense taken with you Helen
In Him Kim
Originally posted by Star:
I don't think the bible supports literal. In fact where the literal Temple manifested itself Paul calls it only a Copy. Theres a blueprint or patern God used this is what I seek to understand myself, I see nothing wrong with this. I wish someone could support literal from scripture whereas a thousand more support Spiritual.
I think when Jesus quoted the OT he treated it as literally historically true.
Can you show evidence to the contrary?
Helen please clarify what you mean about the bible being incidental, and the driving beliefs part, could you be a bit more clear on that paragraph so I can answer you more clearly understanding better what you meant?
I don't know if I can be more clear - lol
Ok, let's say I read in the newspaper that it rained yesterday.
I have a belief that God was sad yesterday. So I say "Oh, that rain was God's tears. God was showing me He was sad through the allegory of rain".
But it's entirely made up in my head that God is sad. Maybe...maybe not...and yet I took that newspaper report of the rain and tried to use it to validate my beliefs...
Does that help you see what I mean?
I ought to say "it rained yesterday" - that's a literal historical fact. Who knows whether God chose for it to rain so I'd think He was sad about something. All I know for sure is that it rained.
Now I haven't tried to substantiate some idea I made up about God's emotions using some information from a newspaper.
People do that with the Bible - they take it and try to fit it to their beliefs, rather than letting the Bible determine their beliefs. The problem is that they claim to have found 'The True Meaning of The Bible'.
Says who???
Christ Crucified is the ONLY THING WE GLORY IN. That will never change not with me, just letting you know
Yeah, but what does that mean when you say it, Kim? Have you allegorized it into something else?
Kim, as far as I'm concerned, it's up to God to show you if you're wrong. I'm just asking questions and I admit that I'm asking them as someone who is aware that what you say is - <AHEM> - unorthodox
. Or so it seems to me.
But I'm not the Judge. I'm just asking.
I don't think the bible supports literal. In fact where the literal Temple manifested itself Paul calls it only a Copy. Theres a blueprint or patern God used this is what I seek to understand myself, I see nothing wrong with this. I wish someone could support literal from scripture whereas a thousand more support Spiritual.
I think when Jesus quoted the OT he treated it as literally historically true.
Can you show evidence to the contrary?
Helen please clarify what you mean about the bible being incidental, and the driving beliefs part, could you be a bit more clear on that paragraph so I can answer you more clearly understanding better what you meant?
I don't know if I can be more clear - lol
Ok, let's say I read in the newspaper that it rained yesterday.
I have a belief that God was sad yesterday. So I say "Oh, that rain was God's tears. God was showing me He was sad through the allegory of rain".
But it's entirely made up in my head that God is sad. Maybe...maybe not...and yet I took that newspaper report of the rain and tried to use it to validate my beliefs...
Does that help you see what I mean?
I ought to say "it rained yesterday" - that's a literal historical fact. Who knows whether God chose for it to rain so I'd think He was sad about something. All I know for sure is that it rained.
Now I haven't tried to substantiate some idea I made up about God's emotions using some information from a newspaper.
People do that with the Bible - they take it and try to fit it to their beliefs, rather than letting the Bible determine their beliefs. The problem is that they claim to have found 'The True Meaning of The Bible'.
Says who???
Christ Crucified is the ONLY THING WE GLORY IN. That will never change not with me, just letting you know
Yeah, but what does that mean when you say it, Kim? Have you allegorized it into something else?
Kim, as far as I'm concerned, it's up to God to show you if you're wrong. I'm just asking questions and I admit that I'm asking them as someone who is aware that what you say is - <AHEM> - unorthodox
But I'm not the Judge. I'm just asking.
K
ken1burton
Guest
DNK.
I like your choice of verses about building Doctrine. Didn't you skip the starting verse that gets that into Context?
You started with this verse:
(ISAIAH 28:9) Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. (KJV)
I like the previous verse better:
(ISAIAH 28:8) For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. (KJV)
Not this verse is offensive, Very offensive. So if this offends someone so they can not use it or think on it. Can you then be taught Knowledge? The second half of Isaiah 28:9 is showing you have to be an adult about the Words, not as a baby.
This is a Prophecy, all prophecies are for the day of the cross. Driking blood was an abomination to a Jew. and when Jesus said the Wine was His blood, a chain reaction started at the Table.
God doubles twice to Establish His words.
(ISAIAH 28:10) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (KJV)
(ISAIAH 28:13) But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. (KJV)
"FALL BACKWARDS." That is what the 144 with Judas did as Jesus on the Mount of Olives said "I am He." Because the 144 with Judas is seen as a wall in Revelation 21:!7. Every wall had to fall the day of the cross as all prophecies are fulfilled. (Ezekiel 38:20)
Now the Disciples formed a wall within a wall as they fought so Jesus would not be taken, The Disciples fell backwards as they forsook Jesus, And Fled. A similitude for a physical fall.
If you drank any manner of blood, You were cast out of the Congregation under Jewish law. And those outside are seen as DOGS. So the Dogs return to the Vomit. Want to try what tham means DHK?
GINA:
I know I am at a Dangerous place. Jesus told me that in Scripture.
(JOHN 16:2) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. (KJV)
AITB:
You are correct, I do have a Agenda. And it is to promote my own understanding of the Bible. But the real question is: Is my own understanding of the Bible the Truth of God?
Did you ever really think anyone promotes what they do not understand as far as their own belief?. Not if they have any real conviction. Many preach sound church doctrine, even if they do not believe it. Far too many.
I hear all the time that you can make the Bible say what you want. Go for it. There are over 1,000 Chapters. Not one single Truth contridicts another truth. Every concept has to fit the Entire Bible. But remember sin ended in Daniel 9:24 and the seal kept the Disciples and Paul from seeing sin ended. So they spoke error as the seal would have caused that.
God spoke through many people. Showing them things kept secret from the others till God decided to reveal it. Does this offend you? Would you prefer to have Billy Graham tell you? Would you then believe it? Maybe Kenneth Copeland? Jan and Paul Crouch? Pope John Paul? Charles Stanley? Kenneth Hagan? How about the hundreds of Theology professors in the Country? Maybe the thousand of Religious Publishers in the World? How about from 10,000 pulpits?
Would you then believe the Message, Or would you reject it because this does not fit within the box you have God placed in?
The Object is the MESSAGE, Never the messenger. Focus on the Scriptures, Not who God chooses to send the message by.
These messages are not ment to win popularity. They are not meant to gain a seat at the Counsel of Churches meeting. They are meant to show you the Truth of God's word. Prove or Reprove with Scripture. Not popular belief, accepted Doctrine, or personal opinion.
"Who shall He teach Knowledge?"
(ISAIAH 28:9) Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. (KJV)
"That God chose to hide "The Truth" - until ken came on the scene?"
(JOHN 16:12) I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. (KJV)
Can you bear now what I say long enough to search it out?
AITB, Great, Signs and wonders. Is that what would make you believe? What was the thing the False Christ's were to do?
(MATTHEW 24:24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (KJV)
Don't think too hard on who did the Signs and wonders. It might burst your ballon.
Can you show me who God used and proved to the people around that He had sent that person? God backed Jesus up with Miracles, they forsook Jesus and crucified Him. The Scriptures is what God sent to show who He is using. Search there for the answers if this is truth.
God's timetable for the Awakening of Israel is 2029 ad. Likened to the Waters covering the Sea. and the sea is healed. When this happens the Earth will be full of the Knowledge of God. That does not say they will believe it as far as the World outside Israel. But they will know the Doctrine.
(ISAIAH 11:9) They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. (KJV)
(EZEKIEL 47:8) Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. (KJV)
The day of the cross is as 2,000 years seen in Ecc 6:6, Psa 90:4. The river is measured and this is the 4,000 cubit or the cross in 29 ad, The nation of israel awakens in 2029 ad.
(JOSHUA 3:3) And they commanded the people, saying, When ye see the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, and the priests the Levites bearing it, then ye shall remove from your place, and go after it. (KJV)
They would see the ARK being lifted on a Cross at Calvary by the Priests or Levites, they are to follow, but stay back 2,000 cubits or from 29 ad at the cross. till 2029 ad when they follow Jesus seeing Him as the Messiah in Scripture. There is no physical coming for Jesus, He is here with God in us.
(JOSHUA 3:4) Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure: come not near unto it, that ye may know the way by which ye must go: for ye have not passed this way heretofore. (KJV)
The Woman in Revelation chapter 12 is Israel. Kept from seeing the face of the Serpent for TIME (Creation STORY in 3975 bc to Baptism in 25 ad=4,000 years.
TIMES=Day of the cross in 29 ad as 2,000 years.
DIVIDING or HALF a TIME=The cross in 29 ad till 2029 ad when the nation of Israel sees Jesus is the Messiah.
Kept from seeing the face of the Serpent, Jesus is the Serpent, they could not see Jesus in the Old Testament, the day of the cross, nor till 2029 ad.
"I'll Drink to that.", Wait while I go get the CUP.
The Cup is the Sea in Solomon's temple. It has a BRIM LIKE UNTO A CUP. It normally holds 2,000 baths of water. OK, Israel, drink a 2,000 year sleep from seeing Jesus is the Christ.
Unto the Cup She (Jesus seen as a woman in the second picture) poured to you, Pour unto HER DOUBLE. Jesus gets 4,000 baths of water poured into His cup. The Cup receives and Holds 3,000 baths of water. "MY CUP RUNNETH OVER."
1,000 baths just ran over, or 1,000 years as yesterday when it is past, This covers Christ from 1004 bc to 4 bc when He had died as David's son born outside wedlock on the seventh day till the REBIRTH at Bethlehem to Mary.
(REVELATION 1:5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (KJV)
Jesus went to the cross as a KING, He is reborn to Mary as a prince, the son of King David. Bathsheba is His mother. Mary is the Surrogate Mother.
That is why Jesus told Martha before going to the Cross "I am the RESURRECTION.", Not I will be.
1,000 baths are used up as a watch in the night, or the day of the cross as 1,000 year reign of Christ.
(PSALMS 90:4) For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. (KJV)
The 2,000 from 29 ad, the cross till 2029 ad when Jesus also sealed by the Father sees all the time periods God set up.
The CUP is for the period of Christ's life from His physical birth to David and Bathsheba till He sees it Himself in 2029 ad.
1,000 is 1004 bc to 4 bc. Jesus with God.
1,000 as the day of the cross in 29 ad.
2,000 from the cross in 29 ad till 2029 ad. Total of 4,000 baths of water given into the CUP. Poured unto Her Double.
OH? SMALL PROBLEM. What happend from His rebirth in 1004 bc to the cross in 29 ad, NO WATER FOR THAT.
(2CHRONICLES 4:5) And the thickness of it was an handbreadth, and the brim of it like the work of the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies; and it received and held three thousand baths. (KJV)
THICKNESS of the CUP was a HANDBREADTH.
(PSALMS 39:5) Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah. (KJV)
The thickness of the cup is as His days and as NOTHING Before GOD.
NOTHING is a Word God uses. Like the Word "NONE"
This is a TEST: NONE declareth, NONE showeth, When I called NONE did answer. There is NONE beside Me.
Who is NONE? __________________?
God had to hide His face from Jesus, God adds a SURNAME:
(ISAIAH 45:4) For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (KJV)
(ISAIAH 45:5) I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: (KJV)
Who then is NONE ELSE? __________________?
When Star used the word CONVERT, She was referring to the Converting which saves a Soul as Church Doctrine teaches. I have no Saving conversion. Just a sharing of the knowledge of God to those already saved by grace. And all mankind is Saved by grace.
There is one verse which mentions SIMILITUDES. (Hosea 12:10) Eleven for SIMILITUDE. Add Parables, Visions, the Words "Likened", "Likeness", "As", Etc and get a thousand pictures to search out. Even the Ark is three STORIES. 1=Ark. 2=Galley ship 3=Gallant ship.
(ISAIAH 33:21) But there the glorious Lord will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby. (KJV)
The First picture as 4 6-hour periods is as a river divided into four heads. That is where the ARK sails. The People as waters, lift up the ARK.
Using what was in the Paper and that you feel God is sad is not quite what is going on. It is the Bible, against the Bible, against the Bible. Those are the verses that show truth. So forget the Paper, forget the commentaries. Forget the foot notes, and apply Scripture to concepts supported by Scripture. That is how truth is sought out.
EagleLives911:
I did not say Satan is God, I said Satan is a name for the Word of God. His words. It does not apply as a name unless the Words are being referred to.
ken1burton
I like your choice of verses about building Doctrine. Didn't you skip the starting verse that gets that into Context?
You started with this verse:
(ISAIAH 28:9) Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. (KJV)
I like the previous verse better:
(ISAIAH 28:8) For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. (KJV)
Not this verse is offensive, Very offensive. So if this offends someone so they can not use it or think on it. Can you then be taught Knowledge? The second half of Isaiah 28:9 is showing you have to be an adult about the Words, not as a baby.
This is a Prophecy, all prophecies are for the day of the cross. Driking blood was an abomination to a Jew. and when Jesus said the Wine was His blood, a chain reaction started at the Table.
God doubles twice to Establish His words.
(ISAIAH 28:10) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (KJV)
(ISAIAH 28:13) But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. (KJV)
"FALL BACKWARDS." That is what the 144 with Judas did as Jesus on the Mount of Olives said "I am He." Because the 144 with Judas is seen as a wall in Revelation 21:!7. Every wall had to fall the day of the cross as all prophecies are fulfilled. (Ezekiel 38:20)
Now the Disciples formed a wall within a wall as they fought so Jesus would not be taken, The Disciples fell backwards as they forsook Jesus, And Fled. A similitude for a physical fall.
If you drank any manner of blood, You were cast out of the Congregation under Jewish law. And those outside are seen as DOGS. So the Dogs return to the Vomit. Want to try what tham means DHK?
GINA:
I know I am at a Dangerous place. Jesus told me that in Scripture.
(JOHN 16:2) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. (KJV)
AITB:
You are correct, I do have a Agenda. And it is to promote my own understanding of the Bible. But the real question is: Is my own understanding of the Bible the Truth of God?
Did you ever really think anyone promotes what they do not understand as far as their own belief?. Not if they have any real conviction. Many preach sound church doctrine, even if they do not believe it. Far too many.
I hear all the time that you can make the Bible say what you want. Go for it. There are over 1,000 Chapters. Not one single Truth contridicts another truth. Every concept has to fit the Entire Bible. But remember sin ended in Daniel 9:24 and the seal kept the Disciples and Paul from seeing sin ended. So they spoke error as the seal would have caused that.
God spoke through many people. Showing them things kept secret from the others till God decided to reveal it. Does this offend you? Would you prefer to have Billy Graham tell you? Would you then believe it? Maybe Kenneth Copeland? Jan and Paul Crouch? Pope John Paul? Charles Stanley? Kenneth Hagan? How about the hundreds of Theology professors in the Country? Maybe the thousand of Religious Publishers in the World? How about from 10,000 pulpits?
Would you then believe the Message, Or would you reject it because this does not fit within the box you have God placed in?
The Object is the MESSAGE, Never the messenger. Focus on the Scriptures, Not who God chooses to send the message by.
These messages are not ment to win popularity. They are not meant to gain a seat at the Counsel of Churches meeting. They are meant to show you the Truth of God's word. Prove or Reprove with Scripture. Not popular belief, accepted Doctrine, or personal opinion.
"Who shall He teach Knowledge?"
(ISAIAH 28:9) Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. (KJV)
"That God chose to hide "The Truth" - until ken came on the scene?"
(JOHN 16:12) I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. (KJV)
Can you bear now what I say long enough to search it out?
AITB, Great, Signs and wonders. Is that what would make you believe? What was the thing the False Christ's were to do?
(MATTHEW 24:24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (KJV)
Don't think too hard on who did the Signs and wonders. It might burst your ballon.
Can you show me who God used and proved to the people around that He had sent that person? God backed Jesus up with Miracles, they forsook Jesus and crucified Him. The Scriptures is what God sent to show who He is using. Search there for the answers if this is truth.
God's timetable for the Awakening of Israel is 2029 ad. Likened to the Waters covering the Sea. and the sea is healed. When this happens the Earth will be full of the Knowledge of God. That does not say they will believe it as far as the World outside Israel. But they will know the Doctrine.
(ISAIAH 11:9) They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. (KJV)
(EZEKIEL 47:8) Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. (KJV)
The day of the cross is as 2,000 years seen in Ecc 6:6, Psa 90:4. The river is measured and this is the 4,000 cubit or the cross in 29 ad, The nation of israel awakens in 2029 ad.
(JOSHUA 3:3) And they commanded the people, saying, When ye see the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, and the priests the Levites bearing it, then ye shall remove from your place, and go after it. (KJV)
They would see the ARK being lifted on a Cross at Calvary by the Priests or Levites, they are to follow, but stay back 2,000 cubits or from 29 ad at the cross. till 2029 ad when they follow Jesus seeing Him as the Messiah in Scripture. There is no physical coming for Jesus, He is here with God in us.
(JOSHUA 3:4) Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure: come not near unto it, that ye may know the way by which ye must go: for ye have not passed this way heretofore. (KJV)
The Woman in Revelation chapter 12 is Israel. Kept from seeing the face of the Serpent for TIME (Creation STORY in 3975 bc to Baptism in 25 ad=4,000 years.
TIMES=Day of the cross in 29 ad as 2,000 years.
DIVIDING or HALF a TIME=The cross in 29 ad till 2029 ad when the nation of Israel sees Jesus is the Messiah.
Kept from seeing the face of the Serpent, Jesus is the Serpent, they could not see Jesus in the Old Testament, the day of the cross, nor till 2029 ad.
"I'll Drink to that.", Wait while I go get the CUP.
The Cup is the Sea in Solomon's temple. It has a BRIM LIKE UNTO A CUP. It normally holds 2,000 baths of water. OK, Israel, drink a 2,000 year sleep from seeing Jesus is the Christ.
Unto the Cup She (Jesus seen as a woman in the second picture) poured to you, Pour unto HER DOUBLE. Jesus gets 4,000 baths of water poured into His cup. The Cup receives and Holds 3,000 baths of water. "MY CUP RUNNETH OVER."
1,000 baths just ran over, or 1,000 years as yesterday when it is past, This covers Christ from 1004 bc to 4 bc when He had died as David's son born outside wedlock on the seventh day till the REBIRTH at Bethlehem to Mary.
(REVELATION 1:5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (KJV)
Jesus went to the cross as a KING, He is reborn to Mary as a prince, the son of King David. Bathsheba is His mother. Mary is the Surrogate Mother.
That is why Jesus told Martha before going to the Cross "I am the RESURRECTION.", Not I will be.
1,000 baths are used up as a watch in the night, or the day of the cross as 1,000 year reign of Christ.
(PSALMS 90:4) For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. (KJV)
The 2,000 from 29 ad, the cross till 2029 ad when Jesus also sealed by the Father sees all the time periods God set up.
The CUP is for the period of Christ's life from His physical birth to David and Bathsheba till He sees it Himself in 2029 ad.
1,000 is 1004 bc to 4 bc. Jesus with God.
1,000 as the day of the cross in 29 ad.
2,000 from the cross in 29 ad till 2029 ad. Total of 4,000 baths of water given into the CUP. Poured unto Her Double.
OH? SMALL PROBLEM. What happend from His rebirth in 1004 bc to the cross in 29 ad, NO WATER FOR THAT.
(2CHRONICLES 4:5) And the thickness of it was an handbreadth, and the brim of it like the work of the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies; and it received and held three thousand baths. (KJV)
THICKNESS of the CUP was a HANDBREADTH.
(PSALMS 39:5) Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah. (KJV)
The thickness of the cup is as His days and as NOTHING Before GOD.
NOTHING is a Word God uses. Like the Word "NONE"
This is a TEST: NONE declareth, NONE showeth, When I called NONE did answer. There is NONE beside Me.
Who is NONE? __________________?
God had to hide His face from Jesus, God adds a SURNAME:
(ISAIAH 45:4) For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (KJV)
(ISAIAH 45:5) I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: (KJV)
Who then is NONE ELSE? __________________?
When Star used the word CONVERT, She was referring to the Converting which saves a Soul as Church Doctrine teaches. I have no Saving conversion. Just a sharing of the knowledge of God to those already saved by grace. And all mankind is Saved by grace.
There is one verse which mentions SIMILITUDES. (Hosea 12:10) Eleven for SIMILITUDE. Add Parables, Visions, the Words "Likened", "Likeness", "As", Etc and get a thousand pictures to search out. Even the Ark is three STORIES. 1=Ark. 2=Galley ship 3=Gallant ship.
(ISAIAH 33:21) But there the glorious Lord will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby. (KJV)
The First picture as 4 6-hour periods is as a river divided into four heads. That is where the ARK sails. The People as waters, lift up the ARK.
Using what was in the Paper and that you feel God is sad is not quite what is going on. It is the Bible, against the Bible, against the Bible. Those are the verses that show truth. So forget the Paper, forget the commentaries. Forget the foot notes, and apply Scripture to concepts supported by Scripture. That is how truth is sought out.
EagleLives911:
I did not say Satan is God, I said Satan is a name for the Word of God. His words. It does not apply as a name unless the Words are being referred to.
ken1burton
Originally posted by Ken Burton
AITB:
You are correct, I do have a Agenda. And it is to promote my own understanding of the Bible.
See? I knew it!
But the real question is: Is my own understanding of the Bible the Truth of God?
Exactly.
I hear all the time that you can make the Bible say what you want. Go for it.
I'd rather not.
The Object is the MESSAGE, Never the messenger. Focus on the Scriptures, Not who God chooses to send the message by.
When did I ever focus on you, Ken? Of course I focus on 'the message' and I'd rather not capitalize that if we're talking about your message...
"That God chose to hide "The Truth" - until ken came on the scene?"
(JOHN 16:12) I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. (KJV)
Oh right, like this verse was about your own specific interpretation of the Bible...I think not!
Can you bear now what I say long enough to search it out?
It would be hard except I'm already convinced you're wrong so there's nothing to bear...
AITB, Great, Signs and wonders. Is that what would make you believe? What was the thing the False Christ's were to do?
(MATTHEW 24:24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (KJV)
So what, Ken? Ever read this?
Heb 2:3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
Don't think too hard on who did the Signs and wonders. It might burst your ballon.
Did you miss the verses I just quoted???
Or are they a similitude of something else whereas the false messiahs verse is literally true? If so how conveniently you allegorize only when it suits your own beliefs to do so...
Can you show me who God used and proved to the people around that He had sent that person? God backed Jesus up with Miracles, they forsook Jesus and crucified Him.
Exactly. Was he a false Messiah then, Ken, according to your comments and quote about signs and wonders?
The Scriptures is what God sent to show who He is using. Search there for the answers if this is truth.
God's timetable for the Awakening of Israel is 2029 ad.
No-one knows the day or hour Ken. That means no-one knows when, including you...
You can keep your time schedule as far as I'm concerned. I don't believe it's from God.
Using what was in the Paper and that you feel God is sad is not quite what is going on. It is the Bible, against the Bible, against the Bible. Those are the verses that show truth. So forget the Paper, forget the commentaries. Forget the foot notes, and apply Scripture to concepts supported by Scripture. That is how truth is sought out.
Forgetting what you believe seems like a great way to start, to me.
I'm never never never going to believe anyone who comes up with a unique interpretation of the Bible and claims it's The Truth.
Never.
Ever.
Is that clear enough for you?
AITB:
You are correct, I do have a Agenda. And it is to promote my own understanding of the Bible.
See? I knew it!
But the real question is: Is my own understanding of the Bible the Truth of God?
Exactly.
I hear all the time that you can make the Bible say what you want. Go for it.
I'd rather not.
The Object is the MESSAGE, Never the messenger. Focus on the Scriptures, Not who God chooses to send the message by.
When did I ever focus on you, Ken? Of course I focus on 'the message' and I'd rather not capitalize that if we're talking about your message...
"That God chose to hide "The Truth" - until ken came on the scene?"
(JOHN 16:12) I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. (KJV)
Oh right, like this verse was about your own specific interpretation of the Bible...I think not!
Can you bear now what I say long enough to search it out?
It would be hard except I'm already convinced you're wrong so there's nothing to bear...
AITB, Great, Signs and wonders. Is that what would make you believe? What was the thing the False Christ's were to do?
(MATTHEW 24:24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (KJV)
So what, Ken? Ever read this?
Heb 2:3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
Don't think too hard on who did the Signs and wonders. It might burst your ballon.
Did you miss the verses I just quoted???
Or are they a similitude of something else whereas the false messiahs verse is literally true? If so how conveniently you allegorize only when it suits your own beliefs to do so...
Can you show me who God used and proved to the people around that He had sent that person? God backed Jesus up with Miracles, they forsook Jesus and crucified Him.
Exactly. Was he a false Messiah then, Ken, according to your comments and quote about signs and wonders?
The Scriptures is what God sent to show who He is using. Search there for the answers if this is truth.
God's timetable for the Awakening of Israel is 2029 ad.
No-one knows the day or hour Ken. That means no-one knows when, including you...
You can keep your time schedule as far as I'm concerned. I don't believe it's from God.
Using what was in the Paper and that you feel God is sad is not quite what is going on. It is the Bible, against the Bible, against the Bible. Those are the verses that show truth. So forget the Paper, forget the commentaries. Forget the foot notes, and apply Scripture to concepts supported by Scripture. That is how truth is sought out.
Forgetting what you believe seems like a great way to start, to me.
I'm never never never going to believe anyone who comes up with a unique interpretation of the Bible and claims it's The Truth.
Never.
Ever.
Is that clear enough for you?
Ken Said:
EagleLives911:
I did not say Satan is God, I said Satan is a name for the Word of God.
You said Lucifer is Jesus on the other thread.
Same difference.
A synopsis of your blasphemy, all quotes by Ken Burton:
IMO you have an agenda against Baptists, claiming to have once been a Baptist yourself; that agenda is to corrupt the purpose of this Board. Your postings are a direct contradiction to the Word of God, a perversion and pollution of the Holy Scriptures.
EagleLives911:
I did not say Satan is God, I said Satan is a name for the Word of God.
You said Lucifer is Jesus on the other thread.
Same difference.
A synopsis of your blasphemy, all quotes by Ken Burton:
You said Lucifer is Jesus. That is another way of saying satan is God.
IMO you have an agenda against Baptists, claiming to have once been a Baptist yourself; that agenda is to corrupt the purpose of this Board. Your postings are a direct contradiction to the Word of God, a perversion and pollution of the Holy Scriptures.
I will gladly be closing this topic on page 8.
Clint Kritzer
Moderator
Clint Kritzer
Moderator
KEN: I know I am at a Dangerous place. Jesus told me that in Scripture.
(JOHN 16:2) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. (KJV)
Gina: According to your own words, this wouldn't be talking about you, it's in the past and over with.
And I'm still curious as to where you are. Are you in the New Jerusalem? Everyone here is saved and there are no more tears or sorrows? I don't get it. And WHAT is the hope for the future if the biblical prophecies and promises are all fulfilled already??
Gina
(JOHN 16:2) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. (KJV)
Gina: According to your own words, this wouldn't be talking about you, it's in the past and over with.
And I'm still curious as to where you are. Are you in the New Jerusalem? Everyone here is saved and there are no more tears or sorrows? I don't get it. And WHAT is the hope for the future if the biblical prophecies and promises are all fulfilled already??
Gina
Hi Helen,
Sorry getting back to you late I have the neighborhood girls over after school over for a pool party, fun but exhausting. I'm back
Forgive the length Helen (Didn't mean it to be this long)
Ok... You said, I think when Jesus quoted the OT he treated it as literally historically true.
Can you show evidence to the contrary?
The Old Testament spoke of Jesus (Himself He said) These things were pointing toward HIM. Jesus Christ IS THE TRUTH HIMSELF, the meaning of the Word made Flesh, to me meaning God spoke in the way He said he did by MULTIPLYING VISIONS AND USING SIMILITUDES. Thats one verse, but thats one in this direction I'm taking this along with others. A similitude (as I have said before) is an imaginative or creative comparison... a "Likeness" whose solid form (finding it in the similitude itself) is an IMMITATION thats why Christ said ye search the scriptures because you think that IN THEM you have Eternal life BUT THESE TESTIFY TO ME, yet you refuse to come to me that you might have life. So Jesus is saying (in my understanding confirming what God had said in Hosea) That God spoke of ME/ The True Solid Form and Manifestation of the Truth (Being HIM) of all that was written find their substance IN CHRIST. Jesus spoke in parables, He says in Psalms (of which Christ needed to fulfill as He Himself said) I will open my dark saying upon the harp. Psalm 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: Your familiar with the parables of Christ, I don't need to write everyone of them. Heb 10:1 The law having only a SHADOW of the things of good things TO COME and not the very image of things.
Why did Christ have to open their understanding if what was literally written could just be intellectually compiled? Literally anyone can read it and see what its saying. Who was it in acts (bad memory) who was reading He was led to the slaughter and he asks, "Who is this man talking about himself or someone else"? It was bearing witness to Jesus Christ.
Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures. Why??? Because in proverbs it says its to the Glory of God to CONCEAL A MATTER but the glory of Kings (Kingdom of preists?) to search it out= Bereans More Noble Character because they did just that. God conceals? Where? God HID Christ in His foreknowledge and Christ finished Gods work.
Similitudes found here in New Testament bearing witness with Old Testament
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the SIMILITUDE (creative comparison) of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the SIMILITUDE of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Old Testament...
Dan 10:16 And, behold, [one] like the SIMILITUDE of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.
Psalm 144:12 That our sons [may be] as plants grown up in their youth; [that] our daughters [may be] as corner stones, polished [after] the SIMILITUDE of a palace.
Theres more I said there was eleven but you get the point, the post will be too long all ready.
What I can't understand is where is literal justified? Everywhere I look its Spiritual words expressing spiritual truths, similitudes, paterns, types, shadows can I ask YOU where do you see literal in these verses which carry over?
Talking Serpents, Knowledge Trees, Beasts with wings, locusts, Ten literal virgins, Candlesticks, Dragon spewing literal water, Woman on a Red beast, horses etc? Do you REALLY believe these are literal, or do you believe scripture can interpret itself using the imagery to convey a spiritual truth concerning what these things are? I mean why compare anything if you should just imagine in your mind what its talking about?
Did I say too much or too little? If either and you want to continue on another thread just let me know.
Helen says,
Ok, let's say I read in the newspaper that it rained yesterday.
I have a belief that God was sad yesterday. So I say "Oh, that rain was God's tears. God was showing me He was sad through the allegory of rain".
But it's entirely made up in my head that God is sad. Maybe...maybe not...and yet I took that newspaper report of the rain and tried to use it to validate my beliefs...
Does that help you see what I mean?
Helen, I might not write down the verses but I don't think I pulled anything from my imagination, I used scriptures (verses) and mostly to ask questions, but again thats the same misunderstanding I keep encountering.
The Allegory I use is to see the Cross of Christ first. Use His comparison, as the Serpent was lifted up in the wilderness so must the Son of man be lifted up because I personally believe that the scripture Jesus referenced was for Him to fulfill because the reality of the scriptures are speaking of and toward Him (The Cross). So I look at the Serpent, I see the Curse in the Garden to His belly, but He's "walking around" in Job (Questions arise but no biggy)And I begin to read a little in the direction of the Serpent to have a better understanding. So like I said Lucifer/ Serpent was Perfect and Christ is as well, Christ is using a SIMILITUDE of a SERPENT in conveying to what must take place at the Cross where our Iniquity was on Him. Heres where I draw the connection (One of many) Both (Lucifer/ Christ) are perfect (scripture not imagination) UNTIL SIN was found in them, this is where I find a beautiful similarity. Jesus Christ became Sin (Ours) He was taking our sins (sins of the world) Given us as a gift HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS heres the paradoxe He is Holy, Perfect, and True He KNEW NO SIN BUT BECAME IT (Iniquity found in Him) God laid on Him OURS. But because Jesus was God the Word made flesh, according to the law each man is to die for His own sin. Am I saying Jesus committed a Sin? NO, but in the "picture" they belong to Him because THAT was part of the work of God to leave off righteousness in the Earth (Linen left behind) Our sins returned TO HIM BECAUSE HE REDEEMED US. This is why it looks like a contradiction concerning Davids Son who died on the Seventh day (Gods rest= Jesus saying= Its finished) because Davids son was going to die because of Davids trangression... The Law will NOT allow for us to interpret it as such. The One who its speaking of IS JESUS in a similitude, He died for us on the Seventh day no less which is God resting from His work... His work is THE CROSS the True foundation and begining of the creation of God. Scripture says WHEN HE SENDS His SPIRIT THEY ARE CREATED. This is seen in Genesis chater 5 as God blessed them (Male and female) making them one new man after the blood of abel who also typed Jesus Christ... Me and Ken differ on that but I have a post elsewhere on baptists and all other religions under the name, a Beautiful picture of Christ as Abel (I believe) I'm not sure if it can still be found but I have a copy somewhere. Helen, I really don't know where to start because I see Jesus Christ because I believe and seek to find the Testimony of Him.
Heres one Old, New, (Simplified) The Sword
Mary was to have a Sword to pierce her OWN soul that the thought of MANY hearts be revealed, I see the Sword against His Shepherd in Zech finding its placement in the gospels when all forsook Him, I also see Mary as a similitude because as He was born of a woman under the law, Christ in us is our hope of Glory and before Christ went to the Cross He's referring to His disciples as a Woman ready to deliver a child having her pain because her time is come, so it was with them. Twofold in prophecy. The Sword promised to ONE WOMAN finds its fulfillment in "The Church" so that the thoughts of THE MANY hearts (plural) might be revealed. The Sword has multiple biblical purposes as seen in scripture, I try letting scripture show me what God meant by comparing Spiritual with spiritual as we are shown.
Helen says,
People do that with the Bible - they take it and try to fit it to their beliefs, rather than letting the Bible determine their beliefs. The problem is that they claim to have found 'The True Meaning of The Bible'.
Actually I claim no such thing, again and again I have posted I have alot of questions. Well I am a bit partial with the scriptures I must agree my belief in Jesus Christ causes me to look for Him in scripture so I do have a tendency to see the finished work of the Cross hidden in Gods foreknowledge, its a real blessing to me
You asked if have I allegorize the cross into something else, No, the Cross is the Solid form (True Work) God was speaking of concerning Jesus Christ. Theres nothing but the Cross of Christ, its what I look for in every book I read, so if I err I hope God forives me for finding the Cross and seeking to understand His words which I cherish.
Helen says,
Kim, as far as I'm concerned, it's up to God to show you if you're wrong. I'm just asking questions and I admit that I'm asking them as someone who is aware that what you say is - <AHEM> - unorthodox . Or so it seems to me.
But I'm not the Judge. I'm just asking.
I agree Helen, I know your confidence is that God is able to show ones error, and if my questions are error or the way I see according to how the scriptures read to me to be off, I know He knows my heart toward Him as He knows your own (without doubt) Thank God He made Jesus Himself the Truth, I don't attribute to Jesus Sin but I do say He had mine on the Cross for which I'm thankful each day and live to look into the unsearchable Judgements of God and learn of Him into all eternity, forgive what seems to be unorthadox, but I hope you see "how" I'm placing these things and consider that I mean Christ the utmost respect in His Holiness.
In Him Kim
Sorry getting back to you late I have the neighborhood girls over after school over for a pool party, fun but exhausting. I'm back
Forgive the length Helen (Didn't mean it to be this long)
Ok... You said, I think when Jesus quoted the OT he treated it as literally historically true.
Can you show evidence to the contrary?
The Old Testament spoke of Jesus (Himself He said) These things were pointing toward HIM. Jesus Christ IS THE TRUTH HIMSELF, the meaning of the Word made Flesh, to me meaning God spoke in the way He said he did by MULTIPLYING VISIONS AND USING SIMILITUDES. Thats one verse, but thats one in this direction I'm taking this along with others. A similitude (as I have said before) is an imaginative or creative comparison... a "Likeness" whose solid form (finding it in the similitude itself) is an IMMITATION thats why Christ said ye search the scriptures because you think that IN THEM you have Eternal life BUT THESE TESTIFY TO ME, yet you refuse to come to me that you might have life. So Jesus is saying (in my understanding confirming what God had said in Hosea) That God spoke of ME/ The True Solid Form and Manifestation of the Truth (Being HIM) of all that was written find their substance IN CHRIST. Jesus spoke in parables, He says in Psalms (of which Christ needed to fulfill as He Himself said) I will open my dark saying upon the harp. Psalm 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: Your familiar with the parables of Christ, I don't need to write everyone of them. Heb 10:1 The law having only a SHADOW of the things of good things TO COME and not the very image of things.
Why did Christ have to open their understanding if what was literally written could just be intellectually compiled? Literally anyone can read it and see what its saying. Who was it in acts (bad memory) who was reading He was led to the slaughter and he asks, "Who is this man talking about himself or someone else"? It was bearing witness to Jesus Christ.
Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures. Why??? Because in proverbs it says its to the Glory of God to CONCEAL A MATTER but the glory of Kings (Kingdom of preists?) to search it out= Bereans More Noble Character because they did just that. God conceals? Where? God HID Christ in His foreknowledge and Christ finished Gods work.
Similitudes found here in New Testament bearing witness with Old Testament
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the SIMILITUDE (creative comparison) of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the SIMILITUDE of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Old Testament...
Dan 10:16 And, behold, [one] like the SIMILITUDE of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.
Psalm 144:12 That our sons [may be] as plants grown up in their youth; [that] our daughters [may be] as corner stones, polished [after] the SIMILITUDE of a palace.
Theres more I said there was eleven but you get the point, the post will be too long all ready.
What I can't understand is where is literal justified? Everywhere I look its Spiritual words expressing spiritual truths, similitudes, paterns, types, shadows can I ask YOU where do you see literal in these verses which carry over?
Talking Serpents, Knowledge Trees, Beasts with wings, locusts, Ten literal virgins, Candlesticks, Dragon spewing literal water, Woman on a Red beast, horses etc? Do you REALLY believe these are literal, or do you believe scripture can interpret itself using the imagery to convey a spiritual truth concerning what these things are? I mean why compare anything if you should just imagine in your mind what its talking about?
Did I say too much or too little? If either and you want to continue on another thread just let me know.
Helen says,
Ok, let's say I read in the newspaper that it rained yesterday.
I have a belief that God was sad yesterday. So I say "Oh, that rain was God's tears. God was showing me He was sad through the allegory of rain".
But it's entirely made up in my head that God is sad. Maybe...maybe not...and yet I took that newspaper report of the rain and tried to use it to validate my beliefs...
Does that help you see what I mean?
Helen, I might not write down the verses but I don't think I pulled anything from my imagination, I used scriptures (verses) and mostly to ask questions, but again thats the same misunderstanding I keep encountering.
The Allegory I use is to see the Cross of Christ first. Use His comparison, as the Serpent was lifted up in the wilderness so must the Son of man be lifted up because I personally believe that the scripture Jesus referenced was for Him to fulfill because the reality of the scriptures are speaking of and toward Him (The Cross). So I look at the Serpent, I see the Curse in the Garden to His belly, but He's "walking around" in Job (Questions arise but no biggy)And I begin to read a little in the direction of the Serpent to have a better understanding. So like I said Lucifer/ Serpent was Perfect and Christ is as well, Christ is using a SIMILITUDE of a SERPENT in conveying to what must take place at the Cross where our Iniquity was on Him. Heres where I draw the connection (One of many) Both (Lucifer/ Christ) are perfect (scripture not imagination) UNTIL SIN was found in them, this is where I find a beautiful similarity. Jesus Christ became Sin (Ours) He was taking our sins (sins of the world) Given us as a gift HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS heres the paradoxe He is Holy, Perfect, and True He KNEW NO SIN BUT BECAME IT (Iniquity found in Him) God laid on Him OURS. But because Jesus was God the Word made flesh, according to the law each man is to die for His own sin. Am I saying Jesus committed a Sin? NO, but in the "picture" they belong to Him because THAT was part of the work of God to leave off righteousness in the Earth (Linen left behind) Our sins returned TO HIM BECAUSE HE REDEEMED US. This is why it looks like a contradiction concerning Davids Son who died on the Seventh day (Gods rest= Jesus saying= Its finished) because Davids son was going to die because of Davids trangression... The Law will NOT allow for us to interpret it as such. The One who its speaking of IS JESUS in a similitude, He died for us on the Seventh day no less which is God resting from His work... His work is THE CROSS the True foundation and begining of the creation of God. Scripture says WHEN HE SENDS His SPIRIT THEY ARE CREATED. This is seen in Genesis chater 5 as God blessed them (Male and female) making them one new man after the blood of abel who also typed Jesus Christ... Me and Ken differ on that but I have a post elsewhere on baptists and all other religions under the name, a Beautiful picture of Christ as Abel (I believe) I'm not sure if it can still be found but I have a copy somewhere. Helen, I really don't know where to start because I see Jesus Christ because I believe and seek to find the Testimony of Him.
Heres one Old, New, (Simplified) The Sword
Mary was to have a Sword to pierce her OWN soul that the thought of MANY hearts be revealed, I see the Sword against His Shepherd in Zech finding its placement in the gospels when all forsook Him, I also see Mary as a similitude because as He was born of a woman under the law, Christ in us is our hope of Glory and before Christ went to the Cross He's referring to His disciples as a Woman ready to deliver a child having her pain because her time is come, so it was with them. Twofold in prophecy. The Sword promised to ONE WOMAN finds its fulfillment in "The Church" so that the thoughts of THE MANY hearts (plural) might be revealed. The Sword has multiple biblical purposes as seen in scripture, I try letting scripture show me what God meant by comparing Spiritual with spiritual as we are shown.
Helen says,
People do that with the Bible - they take it and try to fit it to their beliefs, rather than letting the Bible determine their beliefs. The problem is that they claim to have found 'The True Meaning of The Bible'.
Actually I claim no such thing, again and again I have posted I have alot of questions. Well I am a bit partial with the scriptures I must agree my belief in Jesus Christ causes me to look for Him in scripture so I do have a tendency to see the finished work of the Cross hidden in Gods foreknowledge, its a real blessing to me
You asked if have I allegorize the cross into something else, No, the Cross is the Solid form (True Work) God was speaking of concerning Jesus Christ. Theres nothing but the Cross of Christ, its what I look for in every book I read, so if I err I hope God forives me for finding the Cross and seeking to understand His words which I cherish.
Helen says,
Kim, as far as I'm concerned, it's up to God to show you if you're wrong. I'm just asking questions and I admit that I'm asking them as someone who is aware that what you say is - <AHEM> - unorthodox . Or so it seems to me.
But I'm not the Judge. I'm just asking.
I agree Helen, I know your confidence is that God is able to show ones error, and if my questions are error or the way I see according to how the scriptures read to me to be off, I know He knows my heart toward Him as He knows your own (without doubt) Thank God He made Jesus Himself the Truth, I don't attribute to Jesus Sin but I do say He had mine on the Cross for which I'm thankful each day and live to look into the unsearchable Judgements of God and learn of Him into all eternity, forgive what seems to be unorthadox, but I hope you see "how" I'm placing these things and consider that I mean Christ the utmost respect in His Holiness.
In Him Kim
Kim, it's not my place to 'forgive' what you believe...like I said, it's between you and God.Originally posted by Star:
I agree Helen, I know your confidence is that God is able to show ones error, and if my questions are error or the way I see according to how the scriptures read to me to be off, I know He knows my heart toward Him as He knows your own (without doubt) Thank God He made Jesus Himself the Truth, I don't attribute to Jesus Sin but I do say He had mine on the Cross for which I'm thankful each day and live to look into the unsearchable Judgements of God and learn of Him into all eternity, forgive what seems to be unorthadox, but I hope you see "how" I'm placing these things and consider that I mean Christ the utmost respect in His Holiness.
In Him Kim
I said what I think of Ken's theology and you know whether you buy into it or not...pointing out that Scripture has some imagery in it will not change my mind on that.
I really don't...no offense. I'm not interested in that kind of back and forth on theology...
[ May 31, 2002, 06:22 AM: Message edited by: AITB ]