Did Paul not get it?

[J. Jump]

Marcia how can you believe that those things are literal and the section about the sword and piercing is the only symbolic part?

That's what everyone does that tries to dance around God's Word when something comes up they don't like or they can't explain into their theology.

It's either all literal or it's all symbolic. Not three literal and one symbolic.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: Summing up, overall the definitions of the English words and lexical entries for the Hebrew and Greek words indicate that "soul" and "spirit" are interchangeable terms, with common characteristics ascribed to both.

HP: Thank you for that breath of fresh air on the subject. It amazes me how JJ can beat this spirit-soul horse to death without ever giving us a thread of tangible evidence to support his claims. He has never expounded one time that I can remember as to what possible phenomena are said to be predicated of the soul as distinct from the spirit, with clear concise evidence to support such a notion. He refuses to examine the evidence shown forth by a simple language dictionary, yet chides others on making simple things too difficult.

It matters not whether one chooses the GK, the Hebrew, or plain English, they all point to the very conclusion you reached. Thanks again for taking the time to add a little common sense to this discussion.

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
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They complain and gripe whenever they see someone quoting from the "bad bible" texts saying "Don't be fooled into believing those texts". But then they have to go through complex girations and gloss-over tricks and tactics trying to "fix" all the "bad bible texts"
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JJ
Bob I would agree that folks that don't understand the difference between the salvation of the spirit and the salvation of the soul tend to do exactly what you are talking about, but you fail to separate the two

Bottom line..
No LOST people in heaven.
No SAVED people in hell.
ONLY two kinds of people now - "LOST and Saved".

With those facts clearly in view - I am not clear on how your idea can work.

In the mean time we have all these texts showing the lost --

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/4006/3.html#000030


and as long as we keep in clearly in view "what it means to be saved" -- the issue is not cloudy at all.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Since the edit function refused to copy in the poat above --

In the mean time we have all these texts showing the lost --

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/4006/3.html#000030


and as long as we keep in clearly in view "what it means to be saved" -- the issue is not cloudy at all.


http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/4006/2.html#000028

 

[Hope of Glory]

then why are spirit and soul used interchangeable in many passsages?

There are none in which they are used interchangeably.

But, when Jesus died, his body went in the grave, his spirit went to be with the father, and his soul went to hell.

Does this sound to you as if they are inseparable?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Jesus' soul did not go to hell. There is not one verse in the Bible to support that statement.

 

[J. Jump]

HP if you and Marcia want to allow a dead English dictionary or a dead lexicon, both which are written by uninspired people to be your source of truth then so be it. Plenty of Scriptural evidence has been given and you choose to ignore it. So be it.

As for me I will continue to trust the Scripture which is God breathed. It is alive and active. It is sharper than any two-edged sword and it pierces the soul and the spirit so that they are divided.

I just pray that people reading these threads and not posting can read through your philosophical nonsense.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Perhaps you should read Acts 2, SFiC.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

David was speaking of Christ when he said 'Thou (Christ) wilt not leave my soul in hell(resting place of the saints), neither wilt thou suffer thine holy one to see corruption.'

He was speaking of Christ delivering him that resting place. Christ did not have to go into hell. The saints are not delivered into hell where the rich man lifted his eyes in torment.

There is a great gulf between hell and the resting place of the saints.

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
You can not bend the Bible "enough" to insert OSAS into every text no matter how much wrenching of the text it takes. It will simply wear you out.

As you already noticed in 1Cor 9, the same holds true in Matt 18, in Matt 7, in Romans 2, in Romans 11, in Ezek 18, in 2Tim 2 .. the list just keeps going and going and going.

Better to just accept the Bible as it reads and dump OSAS.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marcia said --
Running for the prize and the reference to crowns in 1 Cor 9 is rewards, not salvation.

That is a bias that some people do bring to the text of 1Cor 9 -- but when we look at the details of 1Cor 9 we "see" Paul talking about salvation as "The benefit" of the Gospel - and IN that context he makes his closing statement.

Pretty instructive when you read those last 10 verses.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Here is a sentence to ponder. “The man fell overboard, hook, line, and sinker.”

Was he fishing or not?

What I am driving at is the way some go about interpreting Scripture. If they see two distinct words in a sentence they automatically assume that there is multiple objects. Their proposed logic is if they both mean the same thing, why would their be two distinct words in the same sentence?

This logic falls flat in the face of the way language is structured and the purposes to which the choice and position of words is utilized. Language cannot be approached simply as one would a science, but rather one needs to try and understand the concept the author is trying to get across.

Here is an example in Scripture 1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” I believe the meaning of the author is not to show forth some separation between the spirit and the soul, but rather to simply place into meaning that the whole corpus of man is to be preserved blameless, hook line and sinker so to speak.
By the way, the man in the sentence illustration was not fishing at all. The words employed are simply to project the meaning that the man, in his entirety, fell overboard.

 

[BobRyan]

As for 1Cor 9 and "The context" to SEE the risk is in the "context" of salvation -- notice the

Reward for Paul is the REWARD of "getting no money".

1Cor 9
16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel.
17 For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me.
18 What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.

Then notice that the BENEFIT of the Gospel is explicitly stated - "salvation" -- providing the Gospel so that "I might SAVE some".

It is in THAT context of the benefit that is "salvation" that we all seek to be "partakers in the Gospel" -- not "money making" rewards!

1Cor 9
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In the same way we see "real loss" in these Bible examples!

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/4006/3.html#000030

This is truly a "Sola scriptura" review of Bible texts "inconvenient Bible texts" for many on this board - texts that will not be carefully reviewed or willingly brought up!

Why?

Because the texts in that link "go against tradition".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[xdisciplex]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:


But, when Jesus died, his body went in the grave, his spirit went to be with the father, and his soul went to hell.

what!?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Act 2:30-32 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by Heavenly Pilgrim:

Here is an example in Scripture 1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” I believe the meaning of the author is not to show forth some separation between the spirit and the soul,

Boy, I wonder why the Holy Spirit overlooked the fact that it should say, "Spirit or soul and body"?

Do you think it's an error, or did God mean what he said?

How about all the other places where the distinction is made?

Error or not?

Is it an error that word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit? Can it not divide them asunder?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Again, that is not talking about the hell that the rich man went to. It is talking about the resting place of the saints. Remember after His resurrection, many saints that were dead came out of their graves and went into the city.

He had to free them. Isaiah 61:1-3. They were nowhere near the hell that the rich man was in, there was a great gulf between them.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I never said it was exactly the same place as the rich man. But, both where Lazarus was and where the rich man was, are in hell.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I would disagree. The Bible says Lazarus was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom, not to hell. I believe the word hell there in Acts is not speaking of anything more than the resting place of the dead in Christ.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Abraham's Bosom and Gehenna are both in Hades or Sheol. In both passages, the word "hades" is used.