did the new Covenant Start in Gospels or Acts?

[freeatlast]

Well, there has always been a "church", whether it was the OT Jews or NT believers. The word "church" is derived from ekklesia, which means a "called out people". So, there has always been a "called out people".


Now, this is how I see the Grace Covenant coming in. Jesus died on the cross. On the cross He stated this, [COLOR="red]Into Thy hands I commend My Spirit."[/COLOR] Now, when He died, His Spirit went back to the Father. At this time, He poured out His blood upon the Mercy seat.[/QUOTE]

[FONT=Verdana]Can you show us where the bible teaches that His Spirit went back to the Father at His death to sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat? [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]The commending of His spirit to the Father would only mean that He was not left in the grave but would rise from the dead not return to the Father. Psalm 16:10,11 For thou wilt not leave my soul in the grave; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....Thou wilt show me the path of life. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]We know according to scripture after His death that He went into the depths to preach to them assumingly about His victory, 1Peter 3:18,19[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]For Christ also suffered [/FONT][URL="http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Pe&c=3&v=18&t=ESV#fnt/0_0"][fn][/URL] once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit
in which [fn] he went and proclaimed [fn] to the spirits in prison,
So what are you basing your belief on about His going into the Holy of Holies at this time.

 

[convicted1]

Can you show us where the bible teaches that His Spirit went back to the Father at His death to sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat?
The commending of His spirit to the Father would only mean that He was not left in the grave but would rise from the dead not return to the Father. Psalm 16:10,11 For thou wilt not leave my soul in the grave; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....Thou wilt show me the path of life.
We know according to scripture after His death that He went into the depths to preach to them assumingly about His victory, 1Peter 3:18,19
For Christ also suffered [fn] once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit
in which [fn] he went and proclaimed [fn] to the spirits in prison,
So what are you basing your belief on about His going into the Holy of Holies at this time.

This is the way I see it. If the Grace Covenant came in days after His death, then there's a period of time when there was no covenant at all, or that's how I undertsand it. So, when Jesus died, He fulfilled the Law, and implanted the Grace Covenant.

 

[HankD]

Can you show us where the bible teaches that His Spirit went back to the Father at His death to sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat?
The commending of His spirit to the Father would only mean that He was not left in the grave but would rise from the dead not return to the Father. Psalm 16:10,11 For thou wilt not leave my soul in the grave; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....Thou wilt show me the path of life.
We know according to scripture after His death that He went into the depths to preach to them assumingly about His victory, 1Peter 3:18,19
For Christ also suffered [fn] once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit
in which [fn] he went and proclaimed [fn] to the spirits in prison,
So what are you basing your belief on about His going into the Holy of Holies at this time.

"at this time"...

Hebrews 9

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:​

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works.

When He did this is not specifically identified, but if He offered His blood, the life of His mortal flesh, then it would have to be after His death by the shedding of His blood.


HankD

 

[freeatlast]

This is the way I see it. If the Grace Covenant came in days after His death, then there's a period of time when there was no covenant at all, or that's how I undertsand it. So, when Jesus died, He fulfilled the Law, and implanted the Grace Covenant.

What would prevent the OT from continuing on until the time at Pentecost when the Spirit gave evidence that this was the beginning of the church age? How would just His death of Christ stop the OT covenant? Under the law the death of the bulls and goats did not satisfy the law until the blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat. So until Christ entered into the Holy of Holies and sprinkled the blood how is the OT stopped and the NT beginning?
So are you saying that just His death was enough to end the OT and start the NT and there was no need for the sprinkling of the blood on the mercy seat?

 

[freeatlast]

"at this time"...

Hebrews 9

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:​

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works.

When He did this is not specifically identified, but if He offered His blood, the life of His mortal flesh, then it would have to be after His death by the shedding of His blood.


HankD

With that I agree. I think the logical thing is to assume it happened sometime after the resurrection and all was not complete until Pentecost when the Spirit was given.

 

[convicted1]

What would prevent the OT from continuing on until the time at Pentecost when the Spirit gave evidence that this was the beginning of the church age? How would just His death of Christ stop the OT covenant? Under the law the death of the bulls and goats did not satisfy the law until the blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat. So until Christ entered into the Holy of Holies and sprinkled the blood how is the OT stopped and the NT beginning?

What fulfilled the Law? Jesus death. So, the Law was "ka-put" at Jesus' death.

So are you saying that just His death was enough to end the OT and start the NT and there was no need for the sprinkling of the blood on the mercy seat?

No. When Jesus died, He entered into the "Holiest of Holies" and sprinkled His blood upon the Mercy Seat after He died. If there was a period of time between the ending of the Law, and ushering in the Grace Covenant, they would have been in "limbo" until He brought the Grace Covenant in. Or this is how I see it. However, I could be wrong, and be shown I am wrong.

 

[convicted1]

"at this time"...

Hebrews 9

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:​

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works.

When He did this is not specifically identified, but if He offered His blood, the life of His mortal flesh, then it would have to be after His death by the shedding of His blood.


HankD

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[thomas15]

...Now, this is how I see the Grace Covenant coming in. Jesus died on the cross. On the cross He stated this, [COLOR="red]Into Thy hands I commend My Spirit."[/COLOR] Now, when He died, His Spirit went back to the Father. At this time, He poured out His blood upon the Mercy seat.

We are saved by grace. This is clearly mentioned in Eph 2:8-9 and other places. Saved by grace.

But could you kindly point me in the direction (Book, Chapter, Verse) where Jehovah makes a covenant of grace with man?

 

[michael-acts17:11]

This is the way I see it. If the Grace Covenant came in days after His death, then there's a period of time when there was no covenant at all, or that's how I undertsand it. So, when Jesus died, He fulfilled the Law, and implanted the Grace Covenant.

Christ did not present Himself to the Father until after He ascended. IF He went to the Father between His death & resurrection, it would have been in the spirit without blood. He presented His blood to the Father immediately before He sat down at His right hand. Our sins were not purged until the sacrifice was offered & accepted by the Father in the holy of holies. This was the Old Testament type which pointed to the events of the true sacrifice.

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17)

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Heb 1:3)

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; (Heb 10:12)

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1Peter 3:21-22)

 

[freeatlast]

What fulfilled the Law? Jesus death. So, the Law was "ka-put" at Jesus' death.





No. When Jesus died, He entered into the "Holiest of Holies" and sprinkled His blood upon the Mercy Seat after He died. If there was a period of time between the ending of the Law, and ushering in the Grace Covenant, they would have been in "limbo" until He brought the Grace Covenant in. Or this is how I see it. However, I could be wrong, and be shown I am wrong.

What scripture are you basing the notion that He entered the Holy of Holies between His death and resurrection?

 

[convicted1]

What scripture are you basing the notion that He entered the Holy of Holies between His death and resurrection?

I think that Hebrews 9, that Brother HankD posted, shows it. Though I agree, that it doesn't state specifically at what time He did this. As I stated earlier, I could be wrong, but this is how I have come to see this.

 

[thomas15]

I think that Hebrews 9, that Brother HankD posted, shows it. Though I agree, that it doesn't state specifically at what time He did this. As I stated earlier, I could be wrong, but this is how I have come to see this.

There are those who say that Jesus himself is the tabernacle. Some might argue that Jesus is the Bethel, the house of God (Gen ch 28, John ch 1). Would those who make such an arguement be in error to suggest that Jesus, the second person of the triune God, the creator and sustainer of all things, God Almighty would not enter the temple in Jerusalem, go into the empty room called the Holy of Holies and pour his blood on the mercy seat?

 

[freeatlast]

I think that Hebrews 9, that Brother HankD posted, shows it. Though I agree, that it doesn't state specifically at what time He did this. As I stated earlier, I could be wrong, but this is how I have come to see this.

I think these passages prove it had to happen after His ascension since he did not set down until some time after he ascended.

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Heb 1:3)

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; (Heb 10:12)

 

[Iconoclast]

Can you show us where the bible teaches that His Spirit went back to the Father at His death to sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat?
The commending of His spirit to the Father would only mean that He was not left in the grave but would rise from the dead not return to the Father. Psalm 16:10,11 For thou wilt not leave my soul in the grave; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....Thou wilt show me the path of life.
We know according to scripture after His death that He went into the depths to preach to them assumingly about His victory, 1Peter 3:18,19
For Christ also suffered [fn] once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit
in which [fn] he went and proclaimed [fn] to the spirits in prison,
So what are you basing your belief on about His going into the Holy of Holies at this time.

Jesus did not go to hell to preach to them...the text is teaching that the Spirit in the day of Noah preached through him[Noah} to those who are now in the realm of death.

 

[convicted1]

Jesus did not go to hell to preach to them...the text is teaching that the Spirit in the day of Noah preached through him[Noah} to those who are now in the realm of death.

What? You mean that you don't believe in purgatory? That Jesus went to preach to the dead? Amazing.


BTW, I agree with EVERY WORD you typed. :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

This is the way I see it. If the Grace Covenant came in days after His death, then there's a period of time when there was no covenant at all, or that's how I undertsand it. So, when Jesus died, He fulfilled the Law, and implanted the Grace Covenant.

Willis,
Many understand that at gen 3:15 the covenant of grace was revealed...and has been here the whole time.....with different administrations....the law which was later revealed....cannot undo the promise.

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.


Willis...there is always law.....there is always grace......both at the same time.....Jesus did away with the curse of the law...death... but we now have the law in our hearts...no longer under its curse...we establish the law

31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.[/QUOTE]

 

[freeatlast]

Jesus did not go to hell to preach to them...the text is teaching that the Spirit in the day of Noah preached through him[Noah} to those who are now in the realm of death.

Iconoclast,
Interesting. I don't think I said hell. Before the death of Christ hades held both the righteous and the unrighteous. I need more to adopt such a view as you are proposing. How it is then that the scripture says;
being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit
in which [fn] he went and proclaimed [fn] to the spirits in prison,

Does not that teach that this happened after His physical death although alive in the Spirit?

1Peter 3:18,19
For Christ also suffered [fn] once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit
in which [fn] he went and proclaimed [fn] to the spirits in prison,

 

[DaChaser1]

Jesus did not go to hell to preach to them...the text is teaching that the Spirit in the day of Noah preached through him[Noah} to those who are now in the realm of death.

Some also hold that Apsotle paul stated that Jesus ascended to heaven and took with Him all of the dead believrs that were "on hold" in Abrahams bosum back with Him, so was preching his victory over grave and death to them in hades!

 

[DaChaser1]

I think that Hebrews 9, that Brother HankD posted, shows it. Though I agree, that it doesn't state specifically at what time He did this. As I stated earlier, I could be wrong, but this is how I have come to see this.

Think that Jesus HAD to resurrect before salvation process was completed!

his death fully atoned for the sins of those who would be saved by grace, but until he was raised up, was not ratified by God as being acceptable yet!

 

[Iconoclast]

Some also hold that Apsotle paul stated that Jesus ascended to heaven and took with Him all of the dead believrs that were "on hold" in Abrahams bosum back with Him, so was preching his victory over grave and death to them in hades!

scriptural support for this is found here:

Psalm 68:18
Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.