Did those seeking to kill Jesus, doing the desires of the Devil, put Jesus to death by godless men?

[Scripture More Accurately]

This is a continuation of a thread to discuss whether the Jews who were seeking to kill Jesus, doing the desires of their father the Devil, put Jesus to death.

@Scripture More Accurately stated the position that those men listening to the Devil and doing his desires were not actually influenced by the Devil.

This statement does not represent accurately my view.

My position is that you do not have the biblical data that you need to establish that the people talked about in John 8 were directly influenced by the devil to do whatever they sought to do. Therefore, you cannot legitimately establish that anything that they tried to do or did do was something that the devil did.

 

[JonC]

This statement does not represent accurately my views.

My position is that you do not have the biblical data that you need to establish that the people talked about in John 8 were directly influenced by the devil to do whatever they sought to do. Therefore, you cannot legitimately establish that anything that they tried to do or did do was something that the devil did.

It is not to your credit to misrepresent people repeatedly. I hope that you will not again make such statements.

I did not misrepresent your statement.

I said:

@Scripture More Accurately stated the position that those men listening to the Devil and doing his desires were not actually influenced by the Devil.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, the point of my illustration is to point to the reality that mere likeness and similarity of desire do not equal guiltiness on the part of the leader unless there is actual, direct influence from the leader to his sons. The illustration does not fall short.

But Scripture does not say that those men were seeking to kill Jesus because they and Satan desired the same thing.

Jesus said that He spoke "the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.". The reason is they believed the lies told by Satan ("Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.").

Jesus made the direct link between those men and Satan's influence. You reject that. You may backtrack now, but you certainly rejected that passage at the time. Now you are trying to pass the buck back to me.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

@JonC I am not backtracking on anything. I stand by what I said. I reject your understanding of what the passage means.

John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

The Bible does not record anywhere where these people saw the devil try to kill Jesus.

 

[JonC]

@JonC I am not backtracking on anything. I stand by what I said. I reject your understanding of what the passage means.

John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

The Bible does not record anywhere where these people saw the devil try to kill Jesus.

Quote where I posted that the Bible stated those people saw the Devil try to kill Jesus. You can't because you are changing the subject.

John 8:38 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”

Jesus spoke of things He has seen (ὁράω) and heard (ἀκούω) from His Father. Those men did the things they heard (ἀκούω) from their father.

That is a direct influence. Satan was a murderer from the beginning. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15).


You are wrong. Those men were not simply doing what they desired by seeking to kill Jesus. They were "doing the things they heard (ἀκούω) from their father".

Jesus equates their relationship to Satan with His to the Father.

Jesus tells us that they did what they heard (you say "saw"... no real difference) from Satan.

You reject that. No skin off my back. You argue about to what extent Satan influenced those men. I really do not care what verses you accept and which you reject.

Your belief is not as far from the Christian faith on this topic as is @Martin Marprelate . My concern was less about how these men heard Satan and more about the idea Martin introduced into our faith (more about the poll in the OP).

How can we reject that those men were "seeking to kill Jesus", that they were "doing what they heard from their father", and that they "put [Jesus] to death" and still be considered "Christian"?

 

[37818]

One's answer would depend on what one means by the phrase "put to death."

 

[37818]

Satan was a murderer from the beginning.

Now this can be argued to be a matter of interpertation. Never the less, Genesis 3:4, says, "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: . . ."

 

[JonC]

One's answer would depend on what one means by the phrase "put to death."

True.

What do you think "nailed to a cross and put to death" means?

 

[37818]

What do you think "nailed to a cross and put to death" means?

They indeed intended to kill Jesus. But Jesus' soul and spirit left His body of His own power.

 

[JonC]

They indeed intended to kill Jesus. But Jesus' soul and spirit left His body of His own power.

He prayed "into Your hands I commit My Spirit" and gave up His Spirit

Psalm 31:4–5 You will pull me out of the net which they have secretly laid for me,
For You are my strength.
Into Your hand I commit my spirit;
You have ransomed me, O Lord, God of truth.

Luke 23:46–47 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.” Having said this, He breathed His last. Now when the centurion saw what had happened, he began praising God, saying, “Certainly this man was innocent.”

This does not exclude those who were doing the work of their father the Devil putting Him to death.

Nobody could rob Jesus if His life. He willingly suffered the wages of sin.

 

[Van]

SNIP What does the Bible say?

Who took Christ's life, God, Satan, or wicked people. My view is God.
He was delivered over by the predetermined plan of God.
Did He die due to the wounds and physical failure of His body? Nope.
He laid down His life with the ability to pick it up again. To call this suicide is twaddle.
He sacrificed His life as a ransom for all.
What does scripture say? Christ gave up His Spirit and died.

 

[JonC]

Who took Christ's life, God, Satan, or wicked people. My view is God.
He was delivered over by the predetermined plan of God.
Did He die due to the wounds and physical failure of His body? Nope.
He laid down His life with the ability to pick it up again. To call this suicide is twaddle.
He sacrificed His life as a ransom for all.
What does scripture say? Christ gave up His Spirit and died.

Scripture says that Christ lay down His own life, nobody robbed Him of it, He has the authority over His life, and He gave up His Spirit.

Scripture also says that those men, doing the desires of Satan, nailed Him to a cross and put Him to death.

It is not a matter of choosing which passages to believe. Those passages do not contradict one another.

 

[Van]

On and on folks, repeating the same nonsense over and over. Wicked people, under the influence of Satan, put Christ to death. They crucified Him. But did the cause His physical death? Or did Christ give up His Spirit with the knowledge He would pick it up again?

 

[JonC]

On and on folks, repeating the same nonsense over and over. Wicked people, under the influence of Satan, put Christ to death. They crucified Him. But did the cause His physical death? Or did Christ give up His Spirit with the knowledge He would pick it up again?

It is both. Christ lay down His own life, it was not robbed of Him, AND those men nailed Jesus to a cross and put Him to death.

 

[Van]

It is both. Christ lay down His own life, it was not robbed of Him, AND those men nailed Jesus to a cross and put Him to death.

If you continue to ignore scripture, nothing can be said. Did the actions of Satan and wicked people "Kill" Christ? My answer is no, no one took His life. He gave up His own Spirit. That is what scripture says.

 

[kyredneck]

Did the actions of Satan and wicked people "Kill" Christ?

What saith the scripture?

The Scripture makes no bones about who killed Christ:

1 Thess 2
14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;

Acts 2:
…. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth… ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

Acts 3:
…Peter… answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel… his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him… ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life… whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:12-15

Acts 4:
…Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

Acts 5:
… they set them before the council…. ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us…. Peter and the apostles answered and said… The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree… we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit Acts 5:27,28,29,30,32

Acts 6 & 7:
…there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52

Acts 10:
…we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree…. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10: 39-42

Acts 13:
…Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken…they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:16,27-31

Mt 27:
25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

AND...The Scripture makes no bones about these being 'the seed of the serpent':

2 saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat:
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows` houses, even while for a pretence ye make long prayers: therefore ye shall receive greater condemnation.
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

3 And the scribes and the Pharisees bring a woman taken in adultery; and having set her in the midst,
13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest witness of thyself; thy witness is not true.
22 The Jews therefore said, Will he kill himself, that he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come?
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mt 3

70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6

 

[kyredneck]

AND...The scripture makes no bones that there was no forgiveness for the devils that murdered Christ:

14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;
16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. 1 Thess 2

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished Lu 21

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Mt 21

70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. Jn 6
22 For the Son of man indeed goeth, as it hath been determined: but woe unto that man through whom he is betrayed! Lu 22

 

[37818]

Luke 23:46–. . . And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, . . .

It is interperted, with the loud voice, to be John 19:30, "It is finished."
It was prior to this ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ."

Nobody could rob Jesus if His life. He willingly suffered the wages of sin.

This was before the John 19:28, ". . . were . . . accomplished . . . ."

 

[kyredneck]

It is interperted, with the loud voice, to be John 19:30, "It is finished."
It was prior to this ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ."
This was before the John 19:28, ". . . were . . . accomplished . . . ."

What is your point? Please.

 

[JonC]

It is interperted, with the loud voice, to be John 19:30, "It is finished."
It was prior to this ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ."
This was before the John 19:28, ". . . were . . . accomplished . . . ."

I'm with @kyredneck . I do not understand your point. Jesus died after He cried out "it is finished".

 

[JonC]

If you continue to ignore scripture, nothing can be said. Did the actions of Satan and wicked people "Kill" Christ? My answer is no, no one took His life. He gave up His own Spirit. That is what scripture says.

I am not ignoring Scripture.

I agree that nobody robbed Jesus of His life but He gave His life.

The difference is I also believe that those men nailed Jesus to a cross and put Him to death.

Where you view those passages as contradicting one another (and ignore or change one) I do not see them as a contradiction.

The main thing you believe is divine suicide (Jesus intentionally caused His own death). I reject that Jesus committed suicide. I believe He lay down His own life, it was not taken from Him, but the mode by which He lay down His life was via men who nailed Him to a cross and put Him to death.