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skypair,

I see nothing in your post that we have not already hashed and rehashed.
Like I already wrote, we know what each other thinks and each of us will
stick to his points until the Vatican, united under all religions, rulers and regimes, becomes the Great Harlot apart from anyone knowing the identity of the 12th Imam for certian ... until Midweek of Daniel's 70th Seven ... as Jesus, Paul and Daniel reveal.

You do introduce two new thoughts, i.e., that Antichrist will "abuse the Harlot Women"! And of course, IMO, he will never have the power nor
the acceptability to rule the world, nor wear a "crown" as one of the EU members!! Ten Kings must first destroy Rome in "one hour with fire" and give their power & authority to him at MIDWEEK of Daniel's 70th Seven!!!

You contradict the Biblical concept of the Woman ruling the kings of earth herself for a short time before the AC becomes the "8th King" by stating that he would have no power if she were to fall! My view is that he has no power UNTIL the Ten Kings destroy Rome in one hour 42 months before Christ destroys him!! And I certainly do not accept your hypothesis of the White Horseman as "a false Christ"; but rather that the White Horseman (not a person but an ideology) is already actively engaged in the war against terrorism ... until the Vatican brings the nations together!!!

In the 2nd new thought, how can you claim the Jews are the "clay" that mixed with "iron" in AD 70! How can you possibly launch that idea when
the "mixture of iron and clay" involves all nations as either "iron or clay"
... not just Jews being "clay" as you infer?? Do you blame the Jews for killing Christ???

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

WHAT?? The AC is the 12th Imam??

So the first half doesn;t count? What does SCRIPTURE say? Covenant for 1 week, Dan 9:27, right? with "Death and hell," right? Who is "Death and hell" if Christ is the "Truth and the Life?" And here's an "I got ya!" If the church is here, they're gonna tell everyone who the AC is. We know all about him!! The ONLY way you could have it your way -- that he is not revealed -- is for the church to be gone!! :laugh:

So you doubt that he could rule the EU from his beginning as a Pope? And you deny that the "little horn" is also a "king," Dan 7:24?? I don't say he rules the WORLD during the first half of the trib -- I say he rules the western nations. In confirming the covenant, he brings in 3 Muslim nations who immediately "bolt" for the 12th Imam, the "Mahdi," and he brings in 3 EU nations that DIDN'T at first support with their "strongholds" the MidEast 7 year peace.

Rev 17 calls for this sometime BEFORE midweek (17:13) cause the harlot is not destroyed until midweek (17:16) and they apparently work in cooperation on the latter program as Dan 11:36-39 informs us.

And who is the white horseman? Especially if you see the Vatican bringing the nations together?

Jer 18/Rom 11 as I already said. The logic of the iron and clay issue is that the kingdom is part strong and part weak, right? Why is it weak? Because there are "law-keepers" in among a lawless empire. They got there when they were "scattered" into ALL nations. The "empire" is weakened religiously and politically throughout by the Judaeo-Christian ethic. There is no break in the legs -- they go all the way down to the feet and toes, right? Even at the end, AC must deal with the "clay" within the empire (which, to me, suggests some form of democracy still). That's how I see what most eschatologists interpret the clay to mean.

skypair

 

skypair,

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
And who is the white horseman? Especially if you see the Vatican bringing the nations together? The "empire" is weakened religiously and politically throughout by the Judaeo-Christian ethic. There is no break in the legs -- they go all the way down to the feet and toes ...
AC must deal with the "clay" within the empire (which, to me, suggests some form of democracy still).
_____________________________________________________________

I believe the White Horsemen has represented the defense and spread of
Democracy since WWII ... no matter whoever might be its leader. The Vatican must be the instrument for uniting the disparite elements of iron (forces of Democracy) and the clay (forces of evil that seek dominance) ... but not until the White Horseman fails to bring the opposing forces to the peace table.

It's the Iron of Democracy that rules from the legs to the toes; but the Iron that rules for God becomes apostate (after the failure of Demcracy to stem the tide of terrorism) and apostasizes by seeking to mix with the Clay (of evil forces) among the "seed of men".

It's not the true Church that must be "taken out of the midst" of this apostate Rule and Rulership to allow for the revelation of Antichrist; but the apostate Church that must be "judged" by God and removed by the Ten Kings arising from the Clay of evil forces.

I don't know whether or not the 12th Imam is the AC; but only mention
this because of the claim of Iran's ruler and therefore he is a possible candidate for the coming lawless one. I don't care to speculate. But I cannot accept your theory that the Empire is weakened (like Clay) because of the democratic Judaeo-Christian influence!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

mel,

The problem with your line of reasoning is that we already know where the "man of sin" will appear. It's been known for centuries if not for 2 millenia already! It cannot be shown scripturally or historically that Simon Peter was ever in Rome -- but we know by his statue that Simon Magus (AKA Simon Patre or "Father Simon"), the one who offered to buy the Spirit and apostleship from Peter in Acts 8:9, was and likely started the Catholic Church there! All we need look for is his confirming of the covenant of peace with Israel. Did he do this for the Oslo Agreement? No -- so that wasn't him.

OK, that's at least something we can look at. So he is a politician? And democracy, as I have heard many say, is the clay that keeps the "feet and toes" "part weak?" But what has appeared in these last days ("feet and toes")? Democratic vs. sacral political systems. That is, during the "leg" phase, religion and government were mixed (Pagan, then Holy Roman Empire, Protestant state religion). What do you notice? State and religion are one and strong. Now state and relgion are separate - a "gift" of our American system! I just really see you overlooking the obvious -- the clay brings the Pope to power but he and 10 kings have to wipe out TRUE faith (via Rev 17:16 and the 5th seal). And this is the "testing" that the pretrib true church is "kept out of."

And wasn't Paul's discourse on the clay "vessels of honor" and "vessels of dishonor" about the church and Israel? Sure it was -- and they were both made of clay! Where's your connection of "defense and spread of democracy" in scripture? Can we "reason together," bro?

Well, I'm glad you can see a "ministry" for the Pope in the end times! :thumbs: That's a start! Are you talking about the EU-Muslim rapproachment perchance? Does Dan 11:41-43 speak of a GT "peace" with the "king of the south" or of a war with him?? WAR, mel. "Entering the glorious land" causes believing Israel to flee Jerusalem and then AC attacks Egypt and "the countries" of Islam -- even Ethiopia.

So apparently the "white horseman" is the one who bring peace in the beginning of the trib as Daniel 9:27 avers, right?

Yes, the apostate church must be judged and it will be judged by the 10 kings. Your timing is just off. Think about it -- isn't the apostate church actually going to be deceived by AC? Aren't they going to believe his lies (2Thes 2:9-12)? And why destroy your those who believe you?? who follow you?? Why not use them, as scripture suggests, to rise your power? I think you are proposing an impractical scenario, friend. Don't you?

Well, at least it has some foundation (the clay) in scriptures, right? I mean, Daniel 2:41 even calls it "potter's clay" like Jer 18/Rom 11/Isa 64:8. Plus, consider that in Judeo-Christian democracy, it is the people who bring any leader to power, right?

skypair

 

Did You Know

skypair,
Quote:

And who is the white horseman? Especially if you see the Vatican bringing the nations together? The "empire" is weakened religiously and politically throughout by the Judaeo-Christian ethic. There is no break in the legs -- they go all the way down to the feet and toes ... AC must deal with the "clay" within the empire (which, to me, suggests some form of democracy still).

Where's your connection of "defense and spread of democracy" in scripture? Can we "reason together," Well, I'm glad you can see a "ministry" for the Pope in the end times! Isn't the apostate church actually going to be deceived by AC?

Mel's Quote:
I cannot accept your theory that the Empire is weakened (like Clay) because of the democratic Judaeo-Christian influence!
Well, at least it has some foundation (the clay) in scriptures, right? I mean, Daniel 2:41 even calls it "potter's clay" like Jer 18/Rom 11/Isa 64:8. Plus, consider that in Judeo-Christian democracy, it is the people who bring any leader to power, right?
_____________________________________________________________

Do you realize why we do not agree on the timing of Endtime events? We haven’t yet begun the feet-toe phase under the rule of Mystery Babylon. I do not see the AC having any influence over the Harlot. AC will not be revealed by “confirming the covenant with MANY” because he will still be just ONE of the MANY. Daniel, Jesus and Paul make it clear he will be “revealed” at MIDWEEK.

The Iron of Democracy has not yet sought to "MIX with the Clay of the seed of men", the would-be Mullahs who wait for their Apocalyptic 12th Iman. The MIXING of iron and clay starts in the feet-toe phase which awaits the formation of Babylon the Great. Here’s where the Pope is now beginning to step in, not to be influenced by the AC as you assirt, but to pave the way for the MANY who sign the Covenant once the MIXTURE has produced the APOSTASY. That's what God hates and which He will judge by removing it (“taking it out of the midst”) of the long-standing IRON of Democratic-Influenced-Governments.

Your syndrome requires that the Democratic form of our ROMON-JUDAEO-CRISTIAN SYSTEM of Government is the CLAY whereas I see it as the IRON which has existed for 2000 years as the dominant form of Lawful Government thru the entire leg-phase of Daniel’s image.

It has not yet sought to include the forces of Evil in an Apostate Iron/ Clay-like System of Government called Babylon the Great! It would not do so until now as long as the White Horseman’s ideology was not losing ground to a hegemony of China, Russia and Iran!! But time's running out!!!

The Pope has begun diplomacy to unite all religions, rulers and regimes under Babylon the Great. I have waited over 50 years, since publishing on this subject in Faith Seminary magazine, to see the ideology and efforts of the White Horseman producing the “crown” by which Babylon the Great will rule the nations for a “short time”. The Ten Kings (from among the Clay element of evil rulers do not receive "power as kings with the AC, with crowns") until they destroy Rome. AC is THEN finally revealed at MIDWEEK of Daniel’s 70th Seven when the “restraint and restrainer (masculine and neuter) will be taken out of the way of the Lawless One”.

On the "connection of the spread and defense of democracy", it was revealed to me and to a friend of mine, independently of each other, on Dec.23, 1988, after he listened to a discussion by Ronald Reagan and David Brinkley on TV and I read an editorial in the Wall Street Journal on "An Ideology for all Seasons (Nations)" that this was the meaning of the "struggle and victory of the BOW" used by the White Horseman.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

mel,

Sure we have. Ten toes -- ten "kingdoms," the WEU. You're ignoring the obvious.

No, it merely "Requires" that state be divested of religion and religion of state. Track the "iron," friend -- "Rome" and Europe have been successively governed according to pagan Caesar worship, Catholic worship, and even Protestant nation states from which our colonists fled! Then it's only been since the birth of Israel have the 10 toes also appeared. So whereas you are right that the toes will conjoin some Muslim nations into the EU, that will be fleeting (1 month) and only through the 7 year peace covenant. And it is "fleeting" because the 12th Imam emerges, the red horseman of the 2nd seal, almost immediately as the world polarizes into 4 "camps" - white, red, black, and pale horses.

You're "jumping the gun" here, mel. AC's Hq Babylon, Iraq isn't until the GT. But during the trib and shortly before, there are 2 "spiritual" Babylons -- religious (Rev 17) and commercial (Rev 18:1-8). As you confess, religious Babylon is Rome and the "small, diverse kingdom" from which AC appears (which means "is revealed" BTW) among the "10 horns."

Know what WAS revealed to you on that day? That many nations have been "healed" whilest the "impotent man" Israel has languished near the pool of Bethesda waiting for a "Christ-figure" to come heal him (John 5:1-15). These accounts in John are "sign miracles," mel (John 20:30) --- signs of the church age and the tribulation. Yes, you saw something -- and it was related to the white horseman and to Christ. Did you at that time consider Pope JP2's role?


I think much of your scenario bears truth but, just like your eschatology, you are not looking for nor have you studied to find AC in the trib though you obviously have during the GT. Him not being seen in the trib is merely self-fulfilling prophecy, as they say.

skypair

 

mel,

Sure we have. Ten toes -- ten "kingdoms," the WEU. You're ignoring the obvious.

No, it merely "Requires" that the state be divested of religion and religion of state. We're even seeing this in the eastern "leg" lf the Roman Empire now (Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, etc.)

Track the "iron," friend -- "Rome" and Europe have been successively governed according to pagan Caesar worship, Catholic worship, and even Protestant nation states from which our colonists fled! Then it's only been since the birth of Israel have the 10 toes also appeared. So whereas you are right that the toes will conjoin some Muslim nations into the EU, that will be fleeting (1 month) and only through the 7 year peace covenant. And it is "fleeting" because the 12th Imam emerges, the red horseman of the 2nd seal, almost immediately as the world polarizes into 4 "camps" - white, red, black, and pale horses.

You're "jumping the gun" here, mel. AC's Hq Babylon, Iraq isn't until the GT. But during the trib and shortly before, there are 2 "spiritual" Babylons -- religious (Rev 17) and commercial (Rev 18:1-8). As you confess, religious Babylon is Rome and the "small, diverse kingdom" from which AC appears (which means "is revealed" BTW) among the "10 horns."

Know what WAS revealed to you on that day? That many nations have been "healed" whilest the "impotent man" Israel has languished near the pool of Bethesda waiting for a "Christ-figure" to come heal him (John 5:1-15). These accounts in John are "sign miracles," mel (John 20:30) --- signs of the church age and the tribulation. Yes, you saw something -- and it was related to the white horseman and to Christ. Did you at that time consider Pope JP2's role?


I think much of your scenario bears truth but, just like your eschatology, you are not looking for nor have you studied to find AC in the trib though you obviously have during the GT. Him not being seen in the trib is merely self-fulfilling prophecy, as they say.

skypair

 

mel,

Sure we have. Ten toes -- ten "kingdoms," the WEU. You're ignoring the obvious.

No, it merely "Requires" that the state be divested of religion and religion of state. We're even seeing this in the eastern "leg" lf the Roman Empire now (Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, etc.)

Track the "iron," friend -- "Rome" and Europe have been successively governed according to pagan Caesar worship, Catholic worship, and even Protestant state religions from which our colonists fled! Then it's only been since the birth of Israel have the 10 toes also appeared. So whereas you are right that the toes will conjoin some Muslim nations into the EU, that will be fleeting (1 month) and only through the 7 year peace covenant. And it is "fleeting" because the 12th Imam emerges, the red horseman of the 2nd seal, almost immediately as the world polarizes into 4 "camps" - white, red, black, and pale horses.

You're "jumping the gun" here, mel. AC's Hq Babylon, Iraq isn't until the GT. But during the trib and shortly before, there are 2 "spiritual" Babylons -- religious (Rev 17) and commercial (Rev 18:1-8). As you confess, religious Babylon is Rome and the "small, diverse kingdom" from which AC appears (which means "is revealed" BTW) among the "10 horns."

Know what WAS revealed to you on that day? That many nations have been "healed" whilest the "impotent man" Israel has languished near the pool of Bethesda waiting for a "Christ-figure" to come heal him (John 5:1-15). These accounts in John are "sign miracles," mel (John 20:30) --- signs of the church age and the tribulation. Yes, you saw something -- and it was related to the white horseman and to Christ. Did you at that time consider Pope JP2's role?


I think much of your scenario bears truth but, just like your eschatology, you are not looking for nor have you studied to find AC in the trib though you obviously have during the GT. Him not being seen in the trib is merely self-fulfilling prophecy, as they say.

skypair

 

mel,

Sure we have. Ten toes -- ten "kingdoms," the WEU. You're ignoring the obvious.

No, it merely "Requires" that the state be divested of religion and religion of state. We're even seeing this in the eastern "leg" lf the Roman Empire now (Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, etc.)

Track the "iron," friend -- "Rome" and Europe have been successively governed according to pagan Caesar worship, Catholic worship, and even Protestant state religions from which our colonists fled! Then it's only been since the birth of Israel have the 10 toes also appeared. So whereas you are right that the toes will conjoin some Muslim nations into the EU, that will be fleeting (1 month) and only through the 7 year peace covenant. And it is "fleeting" because the 12th Imam emerges, the red horseman of the 2nd seal, almost immediately as the world polarizes into 4 "camps" - white, red, black, and pale horses.

You're "jumping the gun" here, mel. AC's Hq Babylon, Iraq isn't until the GT. But during the trib and shortly before, there are 2 "spiritual" Babylons -- religious (Rev 17) and commercial (Rev 18:1-8). As you confess, religious Babylon is Rome and the "small, diverse kingdom" from which AC appears (which means "is revealed" BTW) among the "10 horns."

Know what WAS revealed to you on that day? That many nations have been "healed" whilest the "impotent man" Israel has languished 38 years (since the 1967 war) near the pool of Bethesda waiting for a "Christ-figure" to come heal him (John 5:1-15). These accounts in John are "sign miracles," mel (John 20:30) --- signs of the church age and the tribulation. Yes, you saw something -- and it was related to the white horseman and to Christ. Did you at that time consider Pope JP2's role?


I think much of your scenario bears truth but, just like your eschatology, you are not looking for nor have you studied to find AC in the trib though you obviously have during the GT. Him not being seen in the trib is merely self-fulfilling prophecy, as they say.

skypair

 

skypair,

As of now our differences arise over the timing of the wounding and healing (W&H) of the Beast's 7th Head, on whether the Beast (AC) rules at the same time as Babylon the Great, on whether Babylon of Rev.17
is or is not the same City as Babylon of Rev.18 (both religiously and commercially) or two cities (one in Iraq); AND on whether the Ten
TOES of Daniel's Image are the SAME as the Ten Horns on the Beast
of Daniel 7:20 and Rev.13:3 and Rev.17:3.

I think the most important of these differences is that, IMO, the ten
TOES are not exactly "10" but represent the present and still future development of the nations having developed from the lawful and lawless forces that will come together under Mystery Babylon the Great and that the Ten Horns represent exactly ten rulers who will arise mostly from within the eastern branch of the divided Endtime rulers or nations.

These Ten Rulers from within the Eastern Branch of the Ten TOES will
be "crowned as kings in one hour" in the sense that they "begin to rule the world with the AC" when the Beast rises from the Abyss at MIDWEEK of Daniel's 70th Seven! That is the meaning of the W&H of the 7th Head
and also of the Beast-Animal that WAS ruled by the Harlot, IS NOT any longer ruled by the Harlot as of MIDWEEK; YET IS the Beast-Person which suddenly empowers the "little horn" arising among the ten when the Beast comes up from the Abyss at MIDWEEK!

The W&H of the Beast-Animal's 7th Head represents the removal of the
Apostasy so that the Beast-Person as AC may be revealed. Mystery Babylon will be the last (but failed promoter) of the lawful forces that "restrain" the evil forces until it/he (the city and its ruler) are "taken out of the midst" of lawful government; destroyed by the Ten Kings (NOT by the Ten Toes) who confiscate the System (It WAS, IS NOT because of its fatal wound, YET IS because it was healed) to represent AC who
changes "times and laws for 42 months" until Christ comes FOR and WITH all the Saints.

This "little horn" of Dan.7:20 arises among the Ten Horns, not Ten Toes.
He doesn't come from the EU as you assume. We will guess at his identity after he "subdues 3 of the Ten" in the Mideast. But we cannot be certain of his identity until he "stands in the holy place as god"!

The irreconcilable difference between you and me is that you think those
who "see the abomination and know the End is near" are the Jews rather
than members of the true Church who continue to be in the way of the AC until the END of TIME. The false church, IMO, must be "removed from earth" under the Apostate rule of the Harlot who/which must be "taken out of the midst" of human government before AC can be revealed! We will be here to observe these things or we are NOT the Elect of Mark 13:27 and Matt.24:31 (No one can prove non-believing Jews are Elect).
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey: