Differences between church and individual beliefs

[rsr]

I am (as of today) Augustinian in soteriology (including his equivocation on the preservation of the saints) and historic premillennialist (with amillennialist leanings) in eschatology. I'm pretty sure very, very few people in the church share those beliefs.

I also believe that baptism and communion are more than just "symbols"; while they do not impart saving grace, I believe that they do impart grace that strengthens believers.

And there are other things.

None of these differences, however, prevents me from fellowshipping with this local body, which has over the years displayed so much Christian love to me.

 

[Reformed]

I give. It can be a major or minor issue. I don't compartmentalize it. I do not believe I am the criteria.

I am not sure I understand your reply. Let me rephrase my question. Based on your response in post #15, do you consider the difference of opinion you have with your church over giving to be a major issue for you? I will use the example of worship music again as an illustration. I am not a fan of 7-11 choruses that are heavy on "Me, myself, and I" and weak on theology. I will not sing those songs. However, my conviction about worship music does not rise to the level of my breaking fellowship.

 

[Reformed]

I am (as of today) Augustinian in soteriology (including his equivocation on the preservation of the saints) and historic premillennialist (with amillennialist leanings) in eschatology. I'm pretty sure very, very few people in the church share those beliefs.

I also believe that baptism and communion are more than just "symbols"; while they do not impart saving grace, I believe that they do impart grace that strengthens believers.

And there are other things.

None of these differences, however, prevents me from fellowshipping with this local body, which has over the years displayed so much Christian love to me.

You and I share the same soteriology, although I am an Amillennialist (I hold to Amil with a weak grip) already. We are also agreed on baptism. Unless I want to go to a Geneva-style Presbyterian church in the next town over, finding a Baptist church that holds to my distinctives is like looking for an honest man in Congress. So, what do I do? I attend a local church that preaches the gospel and in which I am able to establish godly relationships.

 

[robycop3]

I simply won't attend a church with major doctrinal differences from my own beliefs. For instance, I won't set foot in a KJVO church, as I know it holds at least one false doctrine.

But we must remember that God gives each believer a slightly-different perspective on things, and if one's looking for a church with EXACTLY the same beliefs as one's own, one will never find a church home. The problem may arise when one decides what MAJOR differences are & aren't. To me, MAJOR ones include modalism, preterism, KJVO, baptismal regeneration, or ANY MAN-MADE DOCTRINE OF FAITH/WORSHIP, etc. Minor ones include charitable works, amount of offerings, music(long as music isn't the center of its services), number of deacons, etc.

 

[JonC]

I am not sure I understand your reply. Let me rephrase my question. Based on your response in post #15, do you consider the difference of opinion you have with your church over giving to be a major issue for you? I will use the example of worship music again as an illustration. I am not a fan of 7-11 choruses that are heavy on "Me, myself, and I" and weak on theology. I will not sing those songs. However, my conviction about worship music does not rise to the level of my breaking fellowship.

My view on giving is not an obstacle.

Since you mention it, our music is also not my preference (guitar, drums, and keyboards....oh my ). I keep in mind that my preferences don't matter. It is easy to claim this is merely entertainment. But it isn't. Worship styles have changed. To me much of the contemporary music has a "youth camp" feel to it. Many of the songs are experiential rather than doctrinal, and that is something to which I have to become accustomed.

Insofar as the OP, the music is probably the most difficult aspect for me. What I do is look around when these songs are sung. When I see people worshipping in spirit and truth I realize the "problem" is mine and not theirs so I can keep silent and not be an obstacle to others.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why would I want to go to a church that doesn’t support my beliefs?

 

[Reformed]

@JonC , I understand I am no longer in my 20's and that a younger generation in the church is seeking its own voice. I get that. My own preferences aside, I think we are to be as biblical as possible in worship. That is my conviction. Others do not share that conviction or view "biblical as possible" differently than I do. Music is just one example. I have friends and acquaintances who practice exclusive psalmody ("EP") in worship. Some sing only non-instrumental EP. For many of them, music is a major doctrinal issue and they will not attend a church that does not view music the way they do. The point of the OP Is not to list reasons why we will not attend a church (although examples of that have been given), rather it is to find out whether there are things we disagree with that are not a reason to break fellowship. @rsr made a useful post. He stated that the church he attends differs with him on some pretty important doctrinal areas. However, for some reason (not given) he has not left the church and it seems relationships play a strong part in his decision.

The reason I started this thread is that I am convinced our churches have people who hold to different beliefs on very important issues. Many of these people have chosen to keep quiet about their beliefs; possibly to avoid being ostracized or out of charity towards the church as a whole. I can understand evaluating different churches before joining one and selecting a church that best fits our beliefs. That is common sense. I can also understand leaving a church that teaches dangerous doctrine. Sometimes the dangerous doctrine has always been there but we have matured in our faith and realize the doctrine for what it is. Other times it may be the result of doctrinal drift as church leadership and/or membership changes. But not every change is serious enough to warrant separation. These are tough questions to ask and the answers are just as difficult.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If I believed that way, I would still be in the RCC.

 

[JonC]

@JonC , I understand I am no longer in my 20's and that a younger generation in the church is seeking its own voice. I get that. My own preferences aside, I think we are to be as biblical as possible in worship. That is my conviction. Others do not share that conviction or view "biblical as possible" differently than I do. Music is just one example. I have friends and acquaintances who practice exclusive psalmody ("EP") in worship. Some sing only non-instrumental EP. For many of them, music is a major doctrinal issue and they will not attend a church that does not view music the way they do. The point of the OP Is not to list reasons why we will not attend a church (although examples of that have been given), rather it is to find out whether there are things we disagree with that are not a reason to break fellowship. @rsr made a useful post. He stated that the church he attends differs with him on some pretty important doctrinal areas. However, for some reason (not given) he has not left the church and it seems relationships play a strong part in his decision.

The reason I started this thread is that I am convinced our churches have people who hold to different beliefs on very important issues. Many of these people have chosen to keep quiet about their beliefs; possibly to avoid being ostracized or out of charity towards the church as a whole. I can understand evaluating different churches before joining one and selecting a church that best fits our beliefs. That is common sense. I can also understand leaving a church that teaches dangerous doctrine. Sometimes the dangerous doctrine has always been there but we have matured in our faith and realize the doctrine for what it is. Other times it may be the result of doctrinal drift as church leadership and/or membership changes. But not every change is serious enough to warrant separation. These are tough questions to ask and the answers are just as difficult.

Often "importance" is in the "eye of the beholder".

This thread is on the "Calv/Arm" section. It is a debate some find important, but others find "spiritually juvenile".

I do not attend a church that I believe to be in error in any fundamental way. This is why I did not join the IFB church I attended last year. I will fellowship with them, but not be a member of that congregation. (They were KJO, and I cannot conceive of that position without the necessity for "double inspiration").

 

[Reformed]

Often "importance" is in the "eye of the beholder".

Foundational doctrines of the Christian faith aside, your statement is assumed in the OP. No one leaves a church because they are in agreement with its teaching.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am (as of today) Augustinian in soteriology (including his equivocation on the preservation of the saints) and historic premillennialist (with amillennialist leanings) in eschatology. I'm pretty sure very, very few people in the church share those beliefs.

I also believe that baptism and communion are more than just "symbols"; while they do not impart saving grace, I believe that they do impart grace that strengthens believers.

And there are other things.

None of these differences, however, prevents me from fellowshipping with this local body, which has over the years displayed so much Christian love to me.

May I ask, if you have that many disagreements, why did you pick that church to attend and have membership?

 

[SolaSister]

Hi, Reformed!
I’m thankful you’ve started this thread, as this is something I’ve been struggling with too.
I’m convinced I’m one of the few monergists at the church I attend (the pastor is amyraldian) but my husband is coming along nicely lol.
Also, the pastor attended the Mothership for Pre-Trib, Pre-Mill eschatology—DTS—so we don’t exactly agree there, although we would have a year or so ago. He is a fantastic expository preacher though and he is just about the only one we could find in town.
I’d prefer to attend a reformed Baptist church, but it would be over an hour each way and my husband and I had to agree that that would not work for us.
Our church often sings songs such as “Reckless Love” (which I will not participate in) and the drums are so loud that it makes my bad ear hurt, so I opt to sit out in the lobby until the concert is over. Yes, I know I sound like I fell off the set of Footloose.
Anyway, I have no advice...but it sure felt good to say all that just now.

 

[Reformed]

Hi, Reformed!
I’m thankful you’ve started this thread, as this is something I’ve been struggling with too.
I’m convinced I’m one of the few monergists at the church I attend (the pastor is amyraldian) but my husband is coming along nicely lol.
Also, the pastor attended the Mothership for Pre-Trib, Pre-Mill eschatology—DTS—so we don’t exactly agree there, although we would have a year or so ago. He is a fantastic expository preacher though and he is just about the only one we could find in town.
I’d prefer to attend a reformed Baptist church, but it would be over an hour each way and my husband and I had to agree that that would not work for us.
Our church often sings songs such as “Reckless Love” (which I will not participate in) and the drums are so loud that it makes my bad ear hurt, so I opt to sit out in the lobby until the concert is over. Yes, I know I sound like I fell off the set of Footloose.
Anyway, I have no advice...but it sure felt good to say all that just now.

Some of these decisions are difficult to make. We live 60-90 minutes (based on traffic) from a Reformed Baptist Church. That is a minimum of 2 hours round trip and the inability to develop godly relationships. For that reason, we attend a local church that, while not a perfect fit, it is the right fit.

I do not leave the sanctuary during the music, I just do not sing songs that are unbiblical or all about the "me monster" as Brian Regan puts it. I have considered being part of a Reformed Baptist church plant in my county. Unless and until that happens I will stay the course and worship with a group of dear, godly people.

 

[SolaSister]

Some of these decisions are difficult to make. We live 60-90 minutes (based on traffic) from a Reformed Baptist Church. That is a minimum of 2 hours round trip and the inability to develop godly relationships. For that reason, we attend a local church that, while not a perfect fit, it is the right fit.

I do not leave the sanctuary during the music, I just do not sing songs that are unbiblical or all about the "me monster" as Brian Regan puts it. I have considered being part of a Reformed Baptist church plant in my county. Unless and until that happens I will stay the course and worship with a group of dear, godly people.

Yes, the fellowship is exactly what would suffer if we chose to travel so far for services. We are part of a community group with this church and it has been extremely edifying. We never miss it and I know that would not be the case if we had to travel.

I just wanted to clarify that I sit outside the sanctuary because the music physically hurts my ear, which has some dysfunction. I didn’t want to sound like a donkey.
Although it surprised me to find out several others also skip the music. I do not know all of their reasons, but noted most are forty and younger. My friend that sits with me outside skips because she has bad headaches and cannot take the drums. I know they say that if it’s too loud, you’re too old....but it really is too loud! Ha ha.

Reformed Baptist churches have been popping up more and more in that hour to two hour radius of us. I’m hoping one will head our way too.

 

[Reformed]

Reformed Baptist churches have been popping up more and more in that hour to two hour radius of us. I’m hoping one will head our way too.

I live an hour outside of Orlando and Tampa, which is basically orange groves and swamps. I guess I can start a church plant with elect alligators. LOL

 

[tyndale1946]

May I ask, if you have that many disagreements, why did you pick that church to attend and have membership?

Well the family church I grew up in shut it doors 15 years ago... I was the youngest at 57 and there were two elderly sister left... At the same time, the church closed, my first wife died and I asked God for direction... So he sent me where he wanted me to be... I met another Christian lady not of my church and got married.

Some of you may be asking, so what's the big deal?... The church I grew up in was an Old Line Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist Church... Primitive, because we don't have all the additions of other churches... Praying, singing (acapella) and preaching and communion with feet washing was my church. We are also noted for being very small congregations... So...

Imagine going from my small family church to a church with with a membership of 2,000... Pipe organ, at times an orchestra and a full blown choir... Also a full rock band for the young folk... Three two four services to fit all ages, Sunday Schools for all ages... Youth groups, the whole nine yards... Talk about culture shock!!!... Some are probably asking well why didn't you go to a church of your choosing?... I could have, there was one similar to mine but it was 2 hours away but in all honesty, I think God wanted to show me the other side of the fence... So for ten years we stayed there, until my wife and I retired.

So we moved to Northern California and now belong to a church of 200, and as you can imagine, since it is small you get to fellowship and get to know more people... You don't have to take a number... There is no pipe organ, orchestra, full blown choir ( we don't have a choir)... And certainly no rock band... And we have one service and may be a special one on different occasions... I like small churches I grew up in one and so did she... The one benefit in a smaller church is... You have time to think!... Brother Glen

 

[Van]

When I joined with my assembly 45 years ago, I had not yet been discipled. My baptist beliefs were pretty much consistent with what I heard from the pulpit. But, years later, after going through a discipleship class, I learned how to study and discern what the bible teaches. Now when the Pastor presents a view I agree with, I nod and smile. When he presents a view that differs, I get busy writing in my sermon notes.

Unity within the local assembly is important and any member who sows disunity should find a more agreeable assembly. But, to be candid, I did help craft our "what be believe" track, so I get to nod and smile a great deal.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes, the fellowship is exactly what would suffer if we chose to travel so far for services. We are part of a community group with this church and it has been extremely edifying. We never miss it and I know that would not be the case if we had to travel.

I just wanted to clarify that I sit outside the sanctuary because the music physically hurts my ear, which has some dysfunction. I didn’t want to sound like a donkey.
Although it surprised me to find out several others also skip the music. I do not know all of their reasons, but noted most are forty and younger. My friend that sits with me outside skips because she has bad headaches and cannot take the drums. I know they say that if it’s too loud, you’re too old....but it really is too loud! Ha ha.

Reformed Baptist churches have been popping up more and more in that hour to two hour radius of us. I’m hoping one will head our way too.

There are earplugs you could get that muffle the sound. My wife has lost her hearing in one ear due to chemo so she is careful with the other ear to preserve what she has left.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well the family church I grew up in shut it doors 15 years ago... I was the youngest at 57 and there were two elderly sister left... At the same time, the church closed, my first wife died and I asked God for direction... So he sent me where he wanted me to be... I met another Christian lady not of my church and got married.

Some of you may be asking, so what's the big deal?... The church I grew up in was an Old Line Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist Church... Primitive, because we don't have all the additions of other churches... Praying, singing (acapella) and preaching and communion with feet washing was my church. We are also noted for being very small congregations... So...

Imagine going from my small family church to a church with with a membership of 2,000... Pipe organ, at times an orchestra and a full blown choir... Also a full rock band for the young folk... Three two four services to fit all ages, Sunday Schools for all ages... Youth groups, the whole nine yards... Talk about culture shock!!!... Some are probably asking well why didn't you go to a church of your choosing?... I could have, there was one similar to mine but it was 2 hours away but in all honesty, I think God wanted to show me the other side of the fence... So for ten years we stayed there, until my wife and I retired.

So we moved to Northern California and now belong to a church of 200, and as you can imagine, since it is small you get to fellowship and get to know more people... You don't have to take a number... There is no pipe organ, orchestra, full blown choir ( we don't have a choir)... And certainly no rock band... And we have one service and may be a special one on different occasions... I like small churches I grew up in one and so did she... The one benefit in a smaller church is... You have time to think!... Brother Glen

I’m assuming you still have unbiblical Sunday School? Do they segregate by age?

 

[SolaSister]

There are earplugs you could get that muffle the sound. My wife has lost her hearing in one ear due to chemo so she is careful with the other ear to preserve what she has left.

Thanks! That’s actually not a bad idea. I’ll check my range bag and see if I have some ‘discrete’ ones. I never thought of it before and I appreciate the suggestion.