Differences... Regeneration/Conversion?

[tyndale1946]

So which one comes first the regeneration or the conversion... And if you are converted... Example Peter... When thou art coverted strength the brethren... What was he converted from and to?... What are we converted from and to?... And if we are not are we not as guilty as Peter?... Where does conversion fit into the regeneration picture?... What about the conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus?... Brother Glen

 

[Yelsew]

Conversion and regeneration are the same thing!

Converted from unbeliever to believer
Renerated out of our unbelief into belief in Jesus Christ, the Savior of the whole world.

"Once I was blind, but now I can see"...Converted or Regenerated? Both!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Regeneration leads to conversion. They are not the same. Regeneration is the impartation of spiritual life to the spiritually dead. Conversion is belief and repentance.

 

[John Gilmore]

Conversion is a broad term that includes contrition, justification and regeneration. It is important that contrition which precedes faith and regeneration that follows faith not be mingled with justification. All that is necessary for our justification before God is the grace of God, the merit of Christ, and faith which is received through the promise of the Gospel.

 

[tyndale1946]

Originally posted by Yelsew: Converted from unbeliever to believer

So what you are saying Yelsew... And there is no way you can back out of this one... That when Jesus chose Simon Barjona and said follow me and I will make you fishers of men... All the time up until the time the statement was made to Peter When thou art coverted strengthen the brethren that Peter... WAS AN UNBELIEVER? Regeneration and conversion are not equal... Brother Glen

 

[Sularis]

Im going to have to kinda agree with Larry

reworded tho

Regeneration through the universal call of the Spirit grants man the ability to choose that which he is normally constrained from choosing; and that once man chooses Christ he then is converted or saved

regeneration precedes conversion

 

[John Gilmore]

Sularis,

How does man receive this "universal call of the Spirit" that enables him to merit salvation by choosing Christ?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew: Converted from unbeliever to believer

So what you are saying Yelsew... And there is no way you can back out of this one... That when Jesus chose Simon Barjona and said follow me and I will make you fishers of men... All the time up until the time the statement was made to Peter When thou art coverted strengthen the brethren that Peter... WAS AN UNBELIEVER? Regeneration and conversion are not equal... Brother Glen </font>[/QUOTE]I believe they are the same because it is the same "raw material" that is changed in "form" from one thing to another "form" of the same "raw material"

Every human that is conceived has at the very core of his/her essence, spirit. It is the spirit of man that is converted (regenerated) from unbeliever to believer. It is the spirit that is the life of the flesh. It is the spirit that departs from the flesh, then the flesh dies, the spirit goes immediately to be with the object of the spirit's belief. If you have no belief in Jesus, you do not get to be with Jesus when your spirit departs your flesh.

As for Peter, It was not until late in Jesus' ministry that Peter confessed that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah. So you tell me, when did Peter truly become a believer? Yes all along Peter believed that Jesus was a good man, a powerful teacher, and a leader of men, but it was not until He Confessed Jesus as the Son of God the messiah that he became a believer!

It was not until I confessed Jesus as the Son of God, the Messiah that I became a believer, fully responsive to Jesus' teachings, and that did not happen in my Christian life for many years after I became "a Christian"! Yes, I believed in Jesus, even on His name, and I mouthed some words, and I lived my life as close to biblical principles as I was convinced was necessary, but it was not until that little "brainlight" came on, that I became convinced of the object of my faith enough to confess that He truly is the Son of God, the Messiah.

So, it was in Peter's fourth year in The University of Jesus, that He became a true believer.

 

[Johnv]

Frankly, I hate words like "regenreation", "conversion", "transformation", etc etc etc. They tend to, imo, pigeonhole biblical ideals.

All I know is that, at one point in time, I got saved. God was working on me before that point, and God has continued to work on me after that point. I was a sinner before, and I'm a sinner now. I don't know which of the common labels to put on those processes in life, and I guess, in the big scope of things, it ain't all that important.

 

[tyndale1946]

Originally posted by Yelsew:

As for Peter, It was not until late in Jesus' ministry that Peter confessed that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah. So you tell me, when did Peter truly become a believer? Yes all along Peter believed that Jesus was a good man, a powerful teacher, and a leader of men, but it was not until He Confessed Jesus as the Son of God the messiah that he became a believer!

So, it was in Peter's fourth year in The University of Jesus, that He became a true believer.

Say What? ... Then why should I read anything that Peter wrote since he might have wrote it in the unbelieving stage he was in!... And if he wrote it in the unbelieving stage how could it be inspired?... You know Yelsew you and Brother Bill were masters of the scripture flip flop to fit your own way of looking at scripture and your personal interpretation of it... You need to reread the discourse between Jesus and Simon Barjona!... It just didn't dawn on him that Jesus is the Christ... He knew it all along!... Brother Glen

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:

As for Peter, It was not until late in Jesus' ministry that Peter confessed that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah. So you tell me, when did Peter truly become a believer? Yes all along Peter believed that Jesus was a good man, a powerful teacher, and a leader of men, but it was not until He Confessed Jesus as the Son of God the messiah that he became a believer!

So, it was in Peter's fourth year in The University of Jesus, that He became a true believer.

Say What? ... Then why should I read anything that Peter wrote since he might have wrote it in the unbelieving stage he was in!... And if he wrote it in the unbelieving stage how could it be inspired?... You know Yelsew you and Brother Bill were masters of the scripture flip flop to fit your own way of looking at scripture and your personal interpretation of it... You need to reread the discourse between Jesus and Simon Barjona!... It just didn't dawn on him that Jesus is the Christ... He knew it all along!... Brother Glen </font>[/QUOTE]Well perhaps you should not trust Peter's writings because you express doubt that they were his "post graduate works".

You are only conjecturing that Peter knew who and what Jesus was. After all it was a brother or friend that told Peter that we have "found the Messiah", which caused Peter to "trust" Jesus from the outset. The whole Israeli nation was expecting a Messiah and have been for some hundreds of years. So it is not unexpected that when someone different shows up, they might be considered to be the Messiah. Even so, It took Peter over three years of close association with Jesus for him to be willing to confess that Jesus is who and what He is. It took me nearly 20 years to do that, but I did not have that "close association" with Jesus that Peter did. I was not an eyewitness to the healing of the sick, or the raising of the dead, or any other miracle that Peter was eyewitness to. I had to take what the Gospels say on consignment of faith, because I did not have first hand knowledge as Peter did. No Brother Glen, Peter had to come to faith just like all the rest of us do.

 

[Me2]

the OT saints lived "by hope through a spoken covenant" with God. via the law.

certain individuals had the Holy spirit "upon" them.
not "within" them. as referring to not replacing their original cursed spirit.

pentacost was the first day in our linear human history that man's cursed spirit was judged and was actually imparted with a new different righteous spirit of Jesus Christ that resided "within" the believer.

before pentacost. mankind could possibly have the holy spirit "upon" them. not "within" them..including Peter and all the rest of the apostles.
after pentacost, the spirit of God (Holy Spirit) can "infill" and "indwell" the believer along with their newly imparted spirit of Jesus "within" them.

major difference

[ September 17, 2003, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

[Yelsew]

before pentacost. mankind could possibly have the holy spirit "upon" them. not "within" them..including Peter and all the rest of the apostles.

after pentacost, the spirit of God (Holy Spirit) can "infill" and "indwell" the believer along with their newly imparted spirit of Jesus "within" them.

Your "distinctions" render the spirit of God powerless in the affairs of man prior to Pentacost. One must conclude by those distinctions that Abraham did not experience the Spirit of God, therefore, Abraham could not have been a "regenerated" man thus he, through his own effort had faith in God that was counted unto him as righteousness. That is totally amazing for a Totally Depraved man!

 

[Me2]

Yeslew,

so are you eluding to Abraham receiving Christ righteous Spirit before pentecost?

that OT saints were receiving christ spirit before christ actual death ?

could Abraham have a "regenerated" mind or receive the mindset of Christ without receiving Christ "righteous" spirit first ?.

sounds out of order...

Me2

 

[Sularis]

John

"...faith comes by hearing
and hearing by the Word of God"

that word can be someone preaching
a particularly poignant moment in nature
or even the Holy Spirit electing someone"

but the regeneration is not recieved it is given
quite forcibly at times - However the choice exists after the regeneration unto conversion

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by Sularis:
John

"...faith comes by hearing
and hearing by the Word of God"

that word can be someone preaching
a particularly poignant moment in nature
or even the Holy Spirit electing someone"

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit works faith by means other than "hearing by the Word of God":
"a particularly poignant moment in nature
or even the Holy Spirit electing someone"? And this "universal call of the Spirit" comes to everyone on earth at least one time in their life? So everyone on earth has an opportunity to choose Christ? So election is really God knowing which persons will choose him after they have received their call?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Me2:
Yeslew,

so are you eluding to Abraham receiving Christ righteous Spirit before pentecost?

that OT saints were receiving christ spirit before christ actual death ?

could Abraham have a "regenerated" mind or receive the mindset of Christ without receiving Christ "righteous" spirit first ?.

sounds out of order...

Me2

OK, did the Father, Son and Holy Spirit exist prior to the Creation?

 

[Sularis]

Word of God means several things

1) the actual words of God - Scripture
2) the results of the words of God - creation
3) Holy Spirit
4) Jesus Christ

In the beginning was the Word (Christ), the Word (Christ) was with God, and the Word(Christ) was God

Also Im not a Calvinist - I believe election exists - but I also believe that free will exists and to force me to pick one is inherently unScriptural; since both are taught

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

Was that an introduction to discuss the Timelessness of the Spirit Realm of God.
Count Me in!

The bible lays out in Linear Timeline of Mankind

Adam introduces the cursed Spirit To Mankind.

No One can be regenerated in spirit or Mind because
they contain this cursed Spirit and are in enmity of the spirit of God.

God chooses within His plans certain people to Speak to or relate through, by visions, revelations and dreams.

ultimately Moses Speaks to the burning Bush.

introduction of the Levitical Law emphasises the inability of Mankind and existance of Curse.

Jesus is introduced via a "Virgin Birth"..or else No one can be saved because they all contain this cursed Spirit. Another Spirit had to come to mankind outside of Creation that was sinless and acceptable.

at Jesus death. He sends the Holy Spirit and imparts his new righteous spirit to Mankind. Now all have the oportunity to be "saved".

But some will have died prior to Jesus Arrival and will have to stand before the judgement throne of God to accept their virdict of innocence.

The OT saints lived under the Law with a cursed carnal spirit.
The NT saints lives by faith with a righteous spirit.

Thats the simple Linear version...
(or we can discuss this timelessness issue.)

theres a lot of Questions I have about the level of relationship that the OT "believers" occurred with God. But the layout of the Linear Timeline strongly suggests all mankind is cursed and no one is Saved Prior to The introduction of Gods Righteous Sacrifice named Jesus.

(many a prophet has mentioned the disparity and enmity and curse between God and Man in The OT.)

Bar None. or so I perceive it...

Me2

 

[Yelsew]

Me2, is that an answer to my question?

You are afterall the one who stated the Spirit of Christ came only after Jesus ascended to the father's right hand. How does that stand up in light of the triune Godhead?

Your timeline by the way has some significant conflicts in it. For example,

The OT saints lived under the Law with a cursed carnal spirit.
The NT saints lives by faith with a righteous spirit.

These two sentences are not comparable. You are comparing turnips to grapefruit.

In light of how God made man, and the fact that the design has not changed from the two very first models, except for the addition of "belly-buttons" I would have to say your theology leaves much to be desired.

Did the Holy Spirit, at Pentacost, go inside the humans or did it merely rest upon the humans?