Differences... Regeneration/Conversion?

Yelsew,

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are 3 persons, One Godhead. They Pre-existed Everything.

They are infinite Spirit and can coexist within each other.
As God can coexist within our new spirits.
which is of God Himself.
the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

The statements of indwelling of the spirit is just that. the holy spirit chooses to express himself by residing within and through our righteous spirit of christ and not within the cursed spirit of the carnal flesh. He will cover over.

perhaps this parable:

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

again the meaning of the incompatability of the spirit of Carnal flesh, and the spirit of Christ.

carnal flesh cant produce Good fruit.

what appears to be good, might be an imitation.
"try the spirits to see if their of God."

again without the spirit of Christ residing within the Human Being. the only option available is the residence of the spirit of Carnal Flesh...antichrist. (1 John 4:3) (mat 12:42-45)


think of Job..Did God Dwell Within Him?
Did Job have a "temple" within him made without hands?

Me2

[ September 18, 2003, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

Yelsew,
I think you are mistaken here of the difference in the relationship of those living under the law (OT) and those living under grace (NT).
and the distinct seperation of the two groups of believers both in time and activities.

I hope you are aware of the goal of God concerning the combination of Both Groups. It is to bring into existence the "sons of God".

One criteria is that the "sons of God" are that they are reprentatives of Gods Love, Mercy and forgiveness seen through the nature of Jesus Christ to mankind. they are the bride. they are of the church age. not of an age that was represented by those living under the Law.

the two groups represent and symbolize a difference in nature of the spirit within Mankind. Do you realize that those of the OT living under the control of their carnal flesh spirit with the covering of the holy spirit were no better off than carnal christians of today. Carnal christians of today live by the law except the holy spirit work from "within" them. their mind is still being controlled by a carnal flesh mindset. from their own past imaginations.

the curse of the law affect both OT cursed and NT cursed exactly the same.

yet the saved in both the OT and NT are not considered equal in degree of relationship, or degree of revelation of God to man.

as you say..its comparing turnips to grapefruits.

as God determined the relationships to be to Us.

and that those who complete the conversion or regeneration are said to be "overcomers",
"the bride", "sons of God" "ambassadors of Christ"

Me2

[ September 19, 2003, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

Me2,
God's Grace prevailed in the Old Testament as it does in the New Testament. There were a couple of instances in the Old Testament when God Judged mankind and meted out the "Wage for Sin" upon the Earth. One was the Flood and the other was Sodom and Gomorrah. There were also instances when God used a form of Justice to discipline His chosen people. One was the Babylonian captivity, the other the Egyption. There were other times when God used "war" to wipe out places such as Tyre, whose location today remains barren.

But the fact is God's grace has existed from the first and remains in force today. So, let's not get wrapped around the axel about God's grace.

God has done nothing to His created man to alter him from the first two that He made. Sin is powerless to alter God's creation. Sin's power is in separating man from God not in altering man from what God made.

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• Every capacity that Adam had, we have.
  Every attribute that God put into Adam, we have.
  Every strength that God put into Adam, We have.
  Every weekness that God put into Adam, we have.
  Every freedom that God put into Adam, we have.
  Every limitation that God put on Adam, we have.</font>

As with Adam, God allows us to choose, even to choose to do that which God commanded us not to do. That is why there are killings, rapes, adultery, fraud, liscentiousness, etc. God allows us to choose.

Because we are by our sin nature separated from God, we are in close contact with our sin nature and we do what we are closest to, so we sin. Yes, we have the ability to hear the word, we have the ability to believe what we hear and to act on it. We have the ability to respond to the call of God. We have the ability to repent from sin. We have the ability to obey the Commandments of God.

Because we are in close proximity to our sin nature, we do not obey God, but instead, like small children we become aborbed in our own activites, only coming around when we need something like food, water, and rest. We like sheep have gone astray and by wandering away in separation from our shepherd, we cannot here his voice calling us. So our shepherd sends his spirit to get our attention so that we will hear the shepherd's voice. When we do hear his voice we do one of two things, we either continue doing what we are doing, or we respond and go to the shepherd. The shepherd keeps on calling to us so that we know he is there, and as long as we can hear his voice we feel safe because we know he will rescue us. But the further we get from the shepherd the less we hear his voice, until finally He is not there for us. we are completely lost!

If the first death occurs while we are in that lost condition, there is no hope for us to avoid the second death.

 

Yelsew,

What An imaginative eXcuse....

adam wasnt made in the "completed image" that man was destined to become.
He knew neither good nor evil.
his spirit was "neutral".
no good/evil spiritual wisdom.
no good/evil spiritual understanding.

that is the only "man" with that spiritual distinction.

for Adam to become the destined image. he would have to aquire the knowledge of good and Evil as well as the spirit of christ. Which we know was aforehand prepared for christ to die for mankind.

for mankind to aquire Christ spirit and mindset.

this was Gods plan all along to emerse mankind into the righteousness, holiness and eternalness of God Himself. "All" Gods Creation will be found tucked into the Life of God the Son.

and all completely planned before the foundation of the earth.

adam chose. on his first day of creation. Planned?

The spirit of Carnal Flesh is Introduced to creation via Adam.. Not the spirit of christ.
the spirit of Carnal Flesh. of which will be reproduced into 100's of billion of Peoples.

do you actually know "who's" spirit this is?

Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

for man to aquire the knowledge of evil. He is submersed into a state of evil. receiving the wisdom and understanding of Evil by experience.

but theres no wisdom or understanding of Good unless God himself visits mankind in this state.

which he personally did 4000 years later.

to complete the image of Man.
which contains the Knowledge of Good and Evil and also the Spirit of Christ within them.

to retain knowledge of Good. Man must have the Righteous Spirit of God.
the mindset of God. (knowledge of Good and Evil from Gods Perspective)
The Faith Of God

do you hear that..the first "Complete image" of Man arrived on planet earth 4000 years after man was already here. Jesus Christ

Not adam.

Me2

 

Without regeneration, there can be no conversion.

 

Then what do you do with Noah "who found grace in the eyes of the Lord"? What About Abraham, "whose faith is counted unto him as righteousness"? What about Lot "whom the Lord spared out of the civilizations of Sodom and Gomorrah"? What about David, "a man after God's own heart"? What about Daniel, Joseph, and on, and on, and on? These, whose stories we do have, and all the others, whose stories we do not have, were not totally depraved, and according to your theology they did not have the Spirit of Christ either.

No Me2, you are too eager to justify your own "salvation" by declaring that all others are totally depraved and worthless to God. That kind of stuff just don't hold up under scrutiny! You simply do not have your spiritual eyes open to see the truth.

There is but one reason for God to "personally visit man", and that is to actually be the "Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the World" ONCE-for-ALL! That is, one time for all mankind for all time!

God is not subject to surprise! It was His plan from before the creation, that He would create man, and that man would be faced with choices, and that man would make the wrong choice, and that God would of his own "seed" provide the propitiation for the sins of the world, so that man would not be judged for sins but for FAITH in God!

It is by believing in, that is, "having FAITH IN" God, that man is regenerated, and not some mystical spiritual regeneration that enables man to believe in God. Let me say it this way, If man CAN believe in anything, man CAN believe in God. If man CANNOT believe in God, man CANNOT believe in anything! The mechanism of believing is inherent to all mankind, and it is up to each individual what his/her personal belief is concerning God. If that were not true, then we could not be having this discussion, because we would all believe exactly alike about everything!

Take off your God filtering glasses for a few moments, so that you can see how God made man! Man is God's supreme achievement in creation, even to the point of saying that man is God's purpose for creating. Man is the top of the food-chain so to speak, the crowning achievement of creation. Man has also become the bane of all creation because we, through sin, have separated ourselves from sinless, Holy, God.

But! That is in accordance with God's plan because, before creation, God appointed Jesus to be the Lamb of God Slain. That is, God knew that mankind would bow to sin and not to Him. In order to redeem us, He gave us the Law, KNOWING that we would not be able to perform the Law 100% of the time, that not one human being would be sinless, each falling short of being a God. We are after all made in the image of God, in his likeness, and all that is lacking for us to be Gods is "holiness".

All the while, the Lamb of God is waiting in the wings, fully willing to take Center Stage at the appointed time, to take upon Himself the Sins of the World so that man, by believing in Him, the Lamb, could be redeemed through faith that can only be of man. No other species under heaven is required to have faith, though some often display faith-like traits. The Word of God does not appear in any language except "human language", The living word, was not manifest in any form but Human-kind! Human-kind must be fully acceptable to God because God caused His Son to be made in Human form, coming in human flesh, having all the attributes of humanity in design and form of man. The only difference is that Jesus, the Son of God had no sin in him, while all other men sin.

Can man become God? NO!
Can man do what pleases God? YES! BUT not without believing that God exists, and believing in God.
Can man believe in God? YES! God gave man, in the creation, the full faculty to be able to believe in HIM!

 

Yelsew,

Im sure there are a lot of athiests that would like to take you to the mat as you are trying to prove God exists.

humans only believe what they can prove exists.
via there physical sensors. and that depends on your point of reference.

some things are proven. some are guesses with no definitive proof. well maybe a lot of hope.

is the sky really blue? creation or evolution?
4 billion years or 6 thousand years.

God only allows man to accept He exists by faith.
Gods own faith where even we cannot add anything of our own to it.

we cant add to Gods faith by using our own reasonings through knowledge.

God doesnt ask us to create faith of our own. He ask us to accept him or deny him through his proof to us through "his" faith.

to believe an infinite, invisible, undetectable by mankind. thats an arguement if God doesn internen by supplying man with His kind of Proof.

Even the best of Religion teaches man that out of all creation. God will only save 5% and will torment and torture 95% of his entire creation in "hell" forever.
thats mankind teaching mankind.
and by what proof? faith?

what does man allow Gods excuses to be...
Bad planning? imperfect man foils perfect God?

What man who believes to be perfect before his felloman expect to rely on a God who can only prove his plans by a 5% success rate.

Not me.

Faith only comes from God and only is correctly displayed through those he chooses to impart His sons spirit within..He controls their education and knowledge. second by second. thought by thought.

no mistakes. no one enters into his presence that are not 100% properly prepared.

faith of God does not originate from man.
Faith orginates from God and without mans help.
If Man wanted to add to the faith of God.
It would become cursed. cant add or take away from Gods faith..or should I say. The faith, of The spirit, of Christ within, His disciples.

are you actually understanding that there exists two types of faith originating from two different spirits. one faith is adiquate to understand, accept, see, hear, and properly communicate with a like kind faith and spirit of God.

while the other faith cannot because it is cursed and inadiquate. It eminates from the wrong spirit.

Just some thoughts..but

Im exiting stage left now...
you can have the last word.
talk to you on another thread.

one without the spirit of God and living by his faith can be regenerated and converted into his obedient Child.

Me2

 

my mistake..should have been

one with the spirit of God and living by his faith can be regenerated and converted into his obedient Child.

Me2

 

Im sure there are a lot of athiests that would like to take you to the mat as you are trying to prove God exists. I'm not trying to prove God exists, I have FAITH that He exists, and that He created from nothing, all that exists. Bring on the atheists, they are of little concern to me.

humans only believe what they can prove exists via there physical sensors. and that depends on your point of reference.[/quote]If humans know that something exist, especially if they have "experience with it, they have no reason to believe, because they have knowledge that it exists. This is a point that according to your posts, you do not understand!

some things are proven. some are guesses with no definitive proof. well maybe a lot of hope.????

is the sky really blue? creation or evolution?
4 billion years or 6 thousand years.If it exists, what does it matter when it came into existence or how? None of us were there for the occasion. What we have is what we have, and that is what we must deal with.

God only allows man to accept He exists by faith.
Gods own faith where even we cannot add anything of our own to it. Why do you keep selling God short? God does not need faith in anything, God does not have faith, and God does not Give faith to man. Faith is man's domain entirely. That which you know requires no faith!

we cant add to Gods faith by using our own reasonings through knowledge. God has no faith to which anything can be added! The one who has all knowledge requires not one iota of faith!


God doesnt ask us to create faith of our own. He ask us to accept him or deny him through his proof to us through "his" faith. God does not have faith, needs no faith, gives no faith!

to believe an infinite, invisible, undetectable by mankind. thats an arguement if God doesn internen by supplying man with His kind of Proof. ???? What are you trying to say?

Even the best of Religion teaches man that out of all creation. God will only save 5% and will torment and torture 95% of his entire creation in "hell" forever.
thats mankind teaching mankind.
and by what proof? faith? If you believe that, why do you believe in God? The odds are overwhelmingly against you being saved. You have only 1 chance in 20 of being "an elect".

what does man allow Gods excuses to be...
Bad planning? imperfect man foils perfect God? Are you drunk? your thoughts are incoherent! If you are on medication, perhaps you should advise your doctor that your thought processes are impaired by the drugs.

What man who believes to be perfect before his felloman expect to rely on a God who can only prove his plans by a 5% success rate.

Not me.

Faith only comes from God and only is correctly displayed through those he chooses to impart His sons spirit within..He controls their education and knowledge. second by second. thought by thought. This is truly a loser's stance. You are saying that God created mankind with absolutely no more value than a gopher. That completely violates God's description of His created man. The man that we are the progeny of. You know, Adam, the one who Sinned against God, and was cast out of the Garden with all of his parts still intact.

no mistakes. no one enters into his presence that are not 100% properly prepared. Perhaps you can give detailed instruction on how one prepares to enter the presence of God.

faith of God does not originate from man.
Faith orginates from God and without mans help.
If Man wanted to add to the faith of God.
It would become cursed. cant add or take away from Gods faith..or should I say. The faith, of The spirit, of Christ within, His disciples. "Faith of God" means that God requires faith to be God! God is God and therefore requires no faith whatever. Who does God report to? What is there that God does not know? What is there that God must have faith in? Can't you understand that God has no need of faith. But He requires faith of his created man, "human faith" because He made us without the ability to see Him as He is. Mankind cannot see spirit and live in this body of flesh. When we die, as all men must, we depart the flesh in the form of spirit. It is when we are in the spirit that we can see God as He is because He is spirit.

are you actually understanding that there exists two types of faith originating from two different spirits. one faith is adiquate to understand, accept, see, hear, and properly communicate with a like kind faith and spirit of God.

while the other faith cannot because it is cursed and inadiquate. It eminates from the wrong spirit. No I do not understand what you are saying because there is no biblical support for it! There is also nothing in the history of man that supports your theory. The spirit of man is where faith resides. It is the spirit of man from whence the activities of man are derived. It is the spirit of man that God is interested in redeeming.

Just some thoughts..but

Im exiting stage left now...
you can have the last word.
talk to you on another thread.

one without the spirit of God and living by his faith can be regenerated and converted into his obedient Child. Faith cometh to man by "hearing", and "hearing" by the Word of God. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen!

 

Heres an exercise

everything God gives to man of a spritual nature is Gods..ie, Jesus Spirit.gifts, fruits. nature. works.
If we accept this freely and do not add or take away..its still his.
If we add or take away. we are taking from God and creating an alternative "imitation" or forgery.
sure we can continue to say its Gods and then flip flop and say its ours. but still we "took it" and altered it in some fashion by adding to or taking away. in this case even God doesnt claim it. He says its yours..ie your faith. not his.

(just like adam and the fruit)

now we can observe this with everything that God give of man in a spiritual nature. gifts,nature,knowledge.

By God originally giving and we altering these free gift. Sanctification is actually dying to the alterations made and understanding the true value of the original gift given.

Jesus in the Gospel keeps saying "your faith, your faith, your faith". notice he said "little faith"..(not complete) because of the alterations made to the original faith of God that wants to impart to them. its his faith altered by them. making it cursed and now Jesus is saying.."its not my faith its yours". its altered.
He even eludes to saying.
its not Gods..its satans.

but if you had the faith of a musterd seed...Gods faith "unaltered"..wow!. then you can say to this mountain. be removed and it will be so. A hint to the faith of God unaltered by man.

look into the NT after the Gospels..now it becomes THE FAITH..not your faith..Its Gods Faith. or faith of God..even "in God" creating the idea of everything in its unaltered form.

an example. A Painting was created.

its "ownership" changes hands.

the new "owner" alters the painting and desires to call it their creation. they boast of ownership even to the point of claiming being the originator.
can you see the original painter arguing over ownership. not in this case. The original painter no longer claims ownership to its altered creation.
not until the new owner reinstitutes the painting to its original state and denies creating the painting and give homage and respect to its original painter will "true value" of the painting emerge.

Man cannot take credit for anything that God gives mankind. nor alter by adding to or taking away from.

this is an adult concept and understanding.

God gives man the spirit of Jesus. Man alters. God demands reinstatement to original form and value to be accepted.
Man "dies" to ownership and being the originator. God accepts man once again. think of it as "dying to self" or even the law killing the wrong choices we have made and demanding we stand in front of God 100% prepared. 100% humbled.

we are reinstate or reconciling back to God the "true image" of man/God

"All of Christ and None of Me"

None. None. None. of ME2

so we see in "conversion". the comprehension and removing of things we have altered to the spirit and understanding of God. until we fully admit it is none other than a work of God "in Us".

Me2

[ September 20, 2003, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

Me2, since you do not seem to have a clear understanding of certain terms, So, I have borrowed from Webster's dictionary the following terms with all of their "common to man" uses. I hope this clears up some of your confusion. Please note: These are things that an individual must have. They cannot be transferred from one to another, they cannot be received or given in the form of a commodity. They are all derived from within the individual, and not something that the individual obtained from an external source, even though the object of belief, Faith, and trust may be that external source. The bold emphasis is mine.

 

Thanks Yelsew, this proves no one can believe apart from being quickened.

According to this and the other definitions you supply from Webster, only a regenerated man can be converted...that is, to believe in something and act purposefully.

When considering OSAS, please take into consideration the list of synonyms you have provided. These indicate first---trust is instinctive---second, confidence is based on reasoning--this reasoning is what you are attempting to make all the above. This reasoning is what causes confidence that God will not permit one of his children to fall away to be lost and this is based upon reasoning.

 

Frogman, You of course are insistant on "your" belief that man cannot believe unless "regenerated". The Plain truth is that believing is regeneration! For without believing man cannot be regenerated!

You also ignore the clear scripture that says, "faith (believing) cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Then Regeneration comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

When one "hears" the word of God, and hearing does not mean through the human natural sensory mechanisms, but rather the "accepting" of what one "hears" in ones "heart" via the natural senses. For when one "hears", that is, accepts the word, one can then act purposefully in accordance with what is accepted.

That is regeneration!

No, Man does not do that all by himself, for God said that when his WORD is sent forth, it does not return void. Scriptures tell us that the Holy Spirit works in concert with the Word in bringing man to the regenerated state, and that regenerated state is the result of change from the old beliefs to the new beliefs brought by hearing the word!

 

Adam knew the Grace of God. This is because 'faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God'


"word" is according to Strong's:

G4487
ῥῆμα
rhēma
hray'-mah
From G4483; an utterance (individually, collectively or specifically); by implication a matter or topic (especially of narration, command or dispute); with a negative naught whatever: - + evil, + nothing, saying, word.

this is from 4483:
G4483
ῥέω
rheō
hreh'-o
For certain tenses of which a prolonged form (ἐρέω ereō) is used; and both as alternate for G2036; perhaps akin (or identical) with G4482 (through the idea of pouring forth); to utter, that is, speak or say: - command, make, say, speak (of). Compare G3004.

This is the 'utterance' of God; a pouring forth of God's word. It is not the written word as you and I do or would use it. It is by the Spirit of God speaking (pouring forth) into the heart of the elect.

This is from the Bible. The scripture many take to mean people must hear the preached Gospel doesn't even say that.

Bro. Dallas

 

To "hear the word" means to accept, believe, receive, heed, the word. Hearing the word is done by, and within "the innerman", the spirit of man.

Hearing what? The word of God, which John ascribes as being Jesus, whom we recognize as the living word of God. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

So if faith comes by hearing, that must mean that man must accept (believe, heed) the word of God, regardless of how that word gets to the innerman. Acceptance is believing. Acceptance is regeneration. One cannot be regenerated without hearing the word.

One of the synonyms of "hear" is "heed"
The only antonym of hear is "disregard"

So, Hearing the word is something that man must do actively else he be disregarding the word.

Hearing is not something that is done for man, but rather that which man must do to come to faith in God. The same applies to the LAW as it does under Grace!

The word of God is either "heard", or it is "disregarded" regardless of how it comes to the inner man.

[ September 21, 2003, 04:27 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

Regeneration comes FIRST!!Otherwise you would have no clue that you have anything to repent of. ALL OF GOD, NOTHING of man!!

 

From Strong's:

G3056
λόγος
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

The word in John 1 is Logos, at Romans 10 it is rhema.

Logos is something said and is the Divine Expression, this is Christ (Heb. 1.3). Rom. 10.17 says faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God... it does not say that hearing comes by acceptance of man.

Regeneration occurs by the utterance of God, conversion occurs within the regenerated individual, this can be said to be acceptance of the truth of the Gospel.

Bro. Dallas

 

As you drive along a road way, you encounter a warning sign that "says", "Warning, Bridge out ahead--take detour". Does this sign regenerate you, or is it a word that tells you of a danger that lies ahead if you continue down that road?

What happens if you disregard that sign and continue traveling down the road?

The Gospel message is that warning sign! It warns of impending danger to you if you continue in your way. It tells you to take the detour through Jesus unto salvation though your believing. Your choices are take the detour or continue in your way unto death.

If you take the detour, you are regenerated and the result is life!

 

Is the written word not someone's utterance, expression of thought, statement, explanation, idea, concept, topic, preaching, etc.? The written word, when read, conveys the authors utterances and is therefore included in LOGOS and RHEMA. There is no difference except in delivery.

Therefore, Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God! It matters not how God's word is heard so long as it is accepted (believed) and acted upon (faith).

 

You are disregarding what the scriptures say. They do not say that regeneration comes after an individual hears and accepts the Gospel. The scriptures shows the word of God to be the utterance of God. Only a regenerated person can be converted. It is only a regenerated person who has anything to be converted to.

Note what we often hear called 'the Great Commission' what do you see in this command of Christ? Do you see a command to preach the Gospel that people might accept it and thereby be regenerated? No, you see that we are to 'make disciples' there is a great difference in these two concepts [getting someone saved eternally and making them a dicsciple].

God Bless
Bro. Dallas