Differences... Regeneration/Conversion?

Please post the scripture references that you hang your belief on that support your statements about "regeneration first".

"Making disciples" is "persuading people to believe in Jesus". Jesus gave the command, therefore those who become disciples are disciples of the Gospel of Jesus, and not disciples of the Apostles.

The Apostles are the delivery system for the Gospel, therefore their writings are important in teaching the disciples how to live life as disciples of the Christ. The Gospel itself is what persuades one to believe unto salvation and thereby become disciples. The rest of Scriptures are the lessons of life by which the disciples must live, and the promises of what is in store for those who endure to the end (of this natural life) in Faith!

[ September 21, 2003, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

We have been discussing a major one in Romans 10, especially vss. 14-17 but not limited to those, observe:

But before Paul preached this by the Spirit Christ spoke it to Nicodemus:

I would recommend a close study of John 3.
Then we can move on to other scriptures.

Bro. Dallas

 

From the mouth of Jesus!

When Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, were the people regenerated (saved) before they looked upon the serpent or after they looked and saw the serpent? Seeing is believing!

Does Jesus not imply to Nicodemus that the same condition exists for the son of man being lifted up? That is, if you do not "look" at Jesus through the Word of God, you cannot be saved, even though Jesus was in fact lifted up in sacrifice!

Where does Jesus say that man must be regenerated before man can believe?

[ September 21, 2003, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

Brother,
It is obvious from Numbers 21 the people did not believe because they looked upon the serpent, the looked upon the serpent because they were believers. The went to Moses because they were believers.

The looking upon the serpent was symbolic of deliverance in time, not eternity. Salvation from the sinfulness of the people, prevented death.

Obedience results in deliverance.

Grace results in eternal salvation.

Where did Jesus say regeneration is first? In John 3.

Bro. Dallas

 

John 3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. [John is speaking of Jesus]
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom:[Jesus] but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him,[John] rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30 He [Jesus] must increase, but I [John]must decrease.
31 He that cometh from above [Jesus] is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly[John], and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven [Jesus] is above all.
32 And what he hath seen and heard, [Jesus] that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony [Whosoever Believeth in Him] hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent [Jesus] speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.[All power and authority, and creation]
36 He that believeth on the Son [US] hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

That is not all of John 3.

 

I don't know what it is you see in this passage of Scripture, but I find nothing where Jesus says or hints toward or eludes that man must be regenerated before one can believe in Him. In fact, His statements indicate that unregenerate man can believe, can do good, and by believing has eternal life.

Perhaps you would be so kind to expound on what you see in John 3 that supports your belief that man must be regenerated prior to being able to believe.

 

Sularis,

You have devised a scheme to help you comfortably avoid the issue. Free Will and Free Grace are mutually exclusive. I suppose they both could be wrong, but both cannot be right. The act of choosing with regards to eternal salvation is never attributed to man in the Scripture, but always to God.

 

NOT SO! If you understood grace, you would never say this.

Man's Will is always free, and man can choose to believe and or do whatever man wills to do so long as it is in mans range of God - given abilities to do so.

Biblical or Divine Grace is "unearned favor", shown by one toward another, It is not tangible, you cannot scoop up a handful, you cannot bag it and take it to the marketplace, etc. It too, has no constraints except those constraints of the one showing the grace. With divine Grace the one showing that grace is unlimited, therefore His grace is unlimited.

It is while God's grace is being shown toward man that man's will comes into play. Therefore, without God's grace, man has no will!

 

Frogman posted Romans 10:14-21 as a reference to his belief that one must be regenerated prior to believing in the Christ. I have expanded that to include verses 4 through 21 for contextual frame.

What am I missing here Frogman? Paul reveals that Jesus is the lord of All, and that all who call on him will be saved! If Paul had "KNOWN" that only the elect will believe in Jesus He certainly would have stated it here for you to be able to use this scripture as a "proof text" for your position on "regeneration prior to believing".

So, what are the other scriptures that you rely on for evidence that regeneration must come before believing can take place?

 

Yelsew,

God does something in our lives before we believe. What is it that God does?

Jesus explained it this way.

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Notice: All the folks referenced in this passage had heard about Jesus or had seen him and heard him personally. But not all believed that He was the Christ. Why? Because only God can and does reveal this to individuals.

True Belief comes on the heels of convicting revelation borne by the Holy Spirit to the hearts of specific individuals.

Each one of us who is a True Believer understands that to be the case in our own lives. God made his Son Jesus so real to us that we knew it was a God Thing in our lives - not just another choice we could or could not make.

Yelsew, you said yourself one time that it would take a miracle for your brother to be saved.

You are absolutely right. Every Choice for Salvation by an individual is motivated and preceded by the overwhelming presence of the Holy Spirit - God Himself - bringing about the Miracle of Salvation in that particular individual's life.

I've never once seen a person saved before God got there.

 

Romans 10 is a good one. What you are missing is vs. 14

then there is also:

 

Fellas, the post by Mrs.Frogman was actually by Frogman, I made an error in loggin in.

Sorry.

Dallas

 

Yes, I agree, God calls us to come to Him, but he has been doing that since Seth was born. He Gave the Law to show the way, but we still get lost, and He gave us His Son, and many still do not heed God's call. No my friend, It is up to us to come when called, or to lose out on the opportunity!

It would certainly be a tragic turn of events if God were ever late to a "saving event", seein' as how God is the one who does the saving.

Remember, there was not a single eye-witness report prior to the first edition of the first of the Gospels, or Paul's letters. There were hand me down stories, but no "scriptural" eye-witness reports like we have today. So, it is entirely possible for one to read or hear the Gospel message and make a choice of whether or not to believe the message. Most of the choice is based on one's experience with those called Christians. If the experience is bad, the one hearing the message is most likely to reject it because the message, when compared to those who believe it does not paint a very good picture. However, if the believers are living the gospel message, the one being exposed to it should choose to believe because he/she sees what it has done in others.

Does it take preconditioning for mankind to believe in "ghosts"? NO! So why do you conclude that it takes preconditioning for mankind to believe in Holy Ghosts? If man can believe in anything having to do with the spiritual realm, and Jesus certainly indicated in his discourse with Nicodemus that man is capable of believing in the spiritual, then man can believe in Jesus and the Heavenly Father, and the Holy Spirit.

It is just very clear to me that Calvinists need to justify for themselves that belief occurs at all. Jesus makes it abundantly clear throughout the Gospels that believing is what man must do of his own power. Jesus says that because Jesus is the creator and knows exactly how he made us.

 

then there is also:

</font>[/QUOTE]In my post of the scripture I included every verse in Romans 10, from vs 4 thru vs 21. All of Romans 10 Paul speakes of Israel and how the Gospel came to the Gentile. He discribes in verse 14 that the Israelites, who don't believe in Jesus cannot hear unless they have a preacher, etc.

 

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Sanctification is a process.. ie, conversion

1Pe 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the APPEARING of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Is Faith, or even knowledge of God, the end of ones salvation?

Is this revelation revealed or exposed to us when we die? Exactly as God promised the OT Saints…..
(do we receive this revelation when we die and not able to receive this revelation while in these bodies of Flesh.)


or are we waiting for Christ to physically appear before us in our future?,
or will he return to us spiritually?

If Faith is not “the end” of our salvation. And knowledge is not “the end”. Then what is the “end” ?, the Goal?

If both are given to man in part.(knowledge and faith)
Then they transform into something Greater
They both transforms into REALITY when their conclusion is reached.


1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Gulp! again are we waiting for perfection to arrive or to be imparted to us.
and prophecying and knowledge done away with...

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your FAITH, [even] the salvation of [your] souls. end? What?..if ..faith substance is hope of and the appearance of christ is the end ?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

the question here as we speak of conversion.

Does the Chief Shepherd appear to usward before our physical death or shall we have to wait, physically die and "stand before his throne" ?

faith as well as knowledge, produces reality.
reality of truth is in the form of Realized evidence.

Is the Realized Evidence to a NT Saint unlike the OT Saints,in that we receive our inheritance of “Things Hoped For While We Are Alive”…namely Eternal life..
Is our heavenly temple made without hands to be occuppied during our physical Life.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh[ is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.


"The Spirit of The Lord Jesus Christ is IN Us".

To Some he has made himself known.
To Some he is still waiting.


Me2

 

Yes, I agree, God calls us to come to Him, but he has been doing that since Seth was born. He Gave the Law to show the way, but we still get lost, and He gave us His Son, and many still do not heed God's call. No my friend, It is up to us to come when called, or to lose out on the opportunity!

It would certainly be a tragic turn of events if God were ever late to a "saving event", seein' as how God is the one who does the saving.

Remember, there was not a single eye-witness report prior to the first edition of the first of the Gospels, or Paul's letters. There were hand me down stories, but no "scriptural" eye-witness reports like we have today. So, it is entirely possible for one to read or hear the Gospel message and make a choice of whether or not to believe the message. Most of the choice is based on one's experience with those called Christians. If the experience is bad, the one hearing the message is most likely to reject it because the message, when compared to those who believe it does not paint a very good picture. However, if the believers are living the gospel message, the one being exposed to it should choose to believe because he/she sees what it has done in others.

Does it take preconditioning for mankind to believe in "ghosts"? NO! So why do you conclude that it takes preconditioning for mankind to believe in Holy Ghosts? If man can believe in anything having to do with the spiritual realm, and Jesus certainly indicated in his discourse with Nicodemus that man is capable of believing in the spiritual, then man can believe in Jesus and the Heavenly Father, and the Holy Spirit.

It is just very clear to me that Calvinists need to justify for themselves that belief occurs at all. Jesus makes it abundantly clear throughout the Gospels that believing is what man must do of his own power. Jesus says that because Jesus is the creator and knows exactly how he made us. </font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew,

One question - Does the Holy Spirit actively participate in convicting an individual sinner of sin?

I'd really like to know your answer for this question.

 

By Jesus' death on the Cross we are justified

By each individual's belief in Jesus each individual is separately and uniquely sanctified. Belief sets one apart from unbelief.

It is by belief in Jesus that one will do the works of Jesus' spirit..."By their works ye shall know them".

When the human spirit does not believe in Jesus, that spirit, by default, does the works of evil. But when one does believe in Jesus, one does the works associated with Jesus therefore the works of the spirit are good works.

Getting to "belief" is the process that results in sanctification. Remaining in belief is the "on-going process" known as the state of "being sanctified".

When the spirit departs the flesh, it is already justified by Jesus' atonement, and it is already sanctified through the condition of faith. Therefore the separating of the sheep and the goats takes place in this natural life. Those who are justified AND sanctified, are not judged, but those who are merely justified and NOT sanctified are judged, and, because their faith condition is lacking, they are cast into the lake of fire for the second death.

Me2, There is but one occurance of "the elect" in what you posted. Peter declares them to be "elect through their sanctification", which is their individual belief in Jesus, that God sees in our individual spirit. It is our spirit that becomes converted or Sanctified through our individual belief in Jesus. That is Peter saying that because He recognized God's plan of Salvation for man. The Plan that was established and "completed from the foundation of the world." Thus "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

When one opens a book in a dark room, one cannot read the book because there is no light by which to read the book. The same principle applies when an unbeliever "reads" the scriptures. Though the page is illuminated by the ambient room light, the unbliever may read the words, and they may remain in his mind. But the true Light of God, His holy Spirit, is the essential light that enables the unbeliever to "see" the truth, and the truth is what convicts one of sin. The role of the Holy Spirit is to illuminate and emphasise the truth so that the unbeliever can come to believe and thereby be saved.

The conviction of ones sins, comes AFTER one believes in Jesus. It is after one believes, that the Spirit of God enables the new believer to "see the truth" concerning their sin.

Sin is not the "convincer" when it comes to Salvation belief. Belief, first that God exists, then second that Jesus is His only begotten Son who gave His life to save man from the penalty of sin, is the convincer. Once one believes in Jesus, the Holy Spirit goes to work of conviction of sin by shining a spotlight on a sin that causes the new believer to see that what he/she is doing is sin in God's eyes. The "saved" sinner must choose to confess his sins, and it may be that this is done one sin at a time, and to repent from sinning that sin. God forgives confessed sins.

Belief that God exists and that Jesus is His Only Son is absolutely essential to Salvation. Belief is the first step to full fledged faith. Salvation begins with human belief in God, Jesus, and even on the name of Jesus, and ends when the saved one is safely into eternal life after the first death, having bypassed judgement through faith, thus avoiding the second death. It is then that faith is no longer needed, because one is safely in the arms of Jesus forever. When you're there, you no longer need faith in getting there. You no longer need faith to remain there, because your life is now eternal, and you have all the knowledge that displaces your once held faith. Ain't God Good?

So, Hardsheller, it is belief in Jesus first, conviction and and confession of sins second, and continuing in faith through to the end of this natural life, then with faith in Jesus, you bypass judgment, and enjoy eternal life with Jesus.

If you miss step one, the rest is immaterial! You are lost!

 

When one opens a book in a dark room, one cannot read the book because there is no light by which to read the book. The same principle applies when an unbeliever "reads" the scriptures. Though the page is illuminated by the ambient room light, the unbliever may read the words, and they may remain in his mind. But the true Light of God, His holy Spirit, is the essential light that enables the unbeliever to "see" the truth, and the truth is what convicts one of sin. The role of the Holy Spirit is to illuminate and emphasise the truth so that the unbeliever can come to believe and thereby be saved.

The conviction of ones sins, comes AFTER one believes in Jesus. It is after one believes, that the Spirit of God enables the new believer to "see the truth" concerning their sin.

Sin is not the "convincer" when it comes to Salvation belief. Belief, first that God exists, then second that Jesus is His only begotten Son who gave His life to save man from the penalty of sin, is the convincer. Once one believes in Jesus, the Holy Spirit goes to work of conviction of sin by shining a spotlight on a sin that causes the new believer to see that what he/she is doing is sin in God's eyes. The "saved" sinner must choose to confess his sins, and it may be that this is done one sin at a time, and to repent from sinning that sin. God forgives confessed sins.

Belief that God exists and that Jesus is His Only Son is absolutely essential to Salvation. Belief is the first step to full fledged faith. Salvation begins with human belief in God, Jesus, and even on the name of Jesus, and ends when the saved one is safely into eternal life after the first death, having bypassed judgement through faith, thus avoiding the second death. It is then that faith is no longer needed, because one is safely in the arms of Jesus forever. When you're there, you no longer need faith in getting there. You no longer need faith to remain there, because your life is now eternal, and you have all the knowledge that displaces your once held faith. Ain't God Good?

So, Hardsheller, it is belief in Jesus first, conviction and and confession of sins second, and continuing in faith through to the end of this natural life, then with faith in Jesus, you bypass judgment, and enjoy eternal life with Jesus.

If you miss step one, the rest is immaterial! You are lost! </font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew,

Would it be accurate then to say that you believe that the Holy Spirit deals with each lost individual who comes into contact with the Gospel in the same way and with the same intensity?