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Yelsew
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Yes, that was a rather harsh thing to say, but in my 5th decade of Christianity and bible study, I must stand by my statement. Sorry if you are offended!
Ditto on Acts 4:20
Ditto on Acts 4:20
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If in your fifty years you have gained more wisdom than the Scriptures, then may God judge between me and thee.19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Once again hardsheller you have added to my meaning that which is not there. I said nothing about this happening before becoming regenerated.Let me summarize your theology.
God made us "good".
And we have "Power" within us to believe unto salvation of our own accord.
It is our "chosen faith" that saves us.
And we do all of that prior to becoming regenerated.
Sin existed prior to man! Remember that Lucifer sinned against God, rising up in rebellion to usurp the throne of God, and was cast down to the earth with 1/3rd of the Angels who followed him. The serpent who beguiled Eve existed before God created man. Remember, Man was the last of God's creation efforts.Genesis 1:31, "God saw all he had made, and indeed it was very good. Evening came and morning came: the sixth day"
Sin did exist prior to man, man was not created in sin, but man after being created and declared good, fell from that position in his original creation and now is dead in sins.Sin existed prior to man! Remember that Lucifer sinned against God, rising up in rebellion to usurp the throne of God, and was cast down to the earth with 1/3rd of the Angels who followed him. The serpent who beguiled Eve existed before God created man. Remember, Man was the last of God's creation efforts.
Why not? God did! If man is not capable of performing righteousness, then there is nothing worthwhile for God to redeem!Originally posted by Frogman:
Don't think of it as 'good' but as righteousness. Man cannot perform righteousness. There is a difference in that which is good and that which is righteousness.
Bro. Dallas
I agree, and you will notice that there is nothing in this that indicates "total depravity" of man, only that man is unable to not sin. There is nothing in this that says man is not able to perform righteousness.Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Here's How man really is and really will be:
Pre-Fall Man: Able to Sin and Able to Not Sin
Post-Fall Man: Able to Sin and Unable to not Sin
Reborn Man: Able to Sin and Able to Not Sin
Glorified Man: Able to Not Sin and Unable to Sin
Why not? God did! If man is not capable of performing righteousness, then there is nothing worthwhile for God to redeem! </font>[/QUOTE]Why did Christ come into the world? To do what we could have done?Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Frogman:
Don't think of it as 'good' but as righteousness. Man cannot perform righteousness. There is a difference in that which is good and that which is righteousness.
Bro. Dallas
To put the already established, from the foundation of the world, finish to the work of God!Why did Christ come into the world? To do what we could have done?
Righteousness is not the Criteria for Salvation! Abraham had faith, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Doesn't it make sense to you that if Faith is equated to righteousness, that God is much more interested in our faith than he is our righteousness. As Paul said this does not give us an excuse to sin, but it does show us where God's priorities are.And if we could have done this, then why did no man do this 'righteousness'?
Well I answered this above, but it is because in God's eyes, there is nothing man can do that is righteous enough to impress God. However, our faith in God really 'grabs' Him by the heart because it is with His heart that He loves us, and for us to have faith in him is a pleasant aroma to him.Because our righteousness is like dirty rags. That which was able to reconcile man to God was the righteousness of God...Christ is the righteousness of God. Man is dead in sin until acted upon by the Holy Spirit. Even the 'good' works man is able to do does not resemble the holiness, the righteousness of God in and through Christ.
In this we agree, but "Total Depravity" is not a factor, Sin and man's natural bent to sinning is the issue. Righteousness in mankind is not continuous, neither is "depravity". That is why FAITH and FAITH alone is the Criteria for Salvation.That is the difficulty you are having I suppose. You must understand, the argument is not that man cannot be moral, but that the capabilities of man's morality do not equal the holiness nor the righteousness that is God. Except that Christ came in the flesh, no man ever yet had lived up to this righteousness. Not one of the OT saints could or did, they all, even believing the promise of God fell through weak faith at different points in their experience.
Who do you think God is trying to impress by redeeming fallen man? God has no reason to redeem man other than His own will to do so. All of which was established before the foundation of the world.What did God see worth redeeming? Not man. Man is not redeemed for his sake, but for the sake of God. In fact, the work of redemption has been planned and accomplished for the praise of the Glory of his {God} Grace. No portion of it has been completed for the sake of man. If it were for the sake of man the possibility of man accomplishing that righteousness would have been possible.
I do not say, and have not said, that man must "use" faith. I have been very consistant in saying that man must "HAVE" faith in order to be saved. Without faith there is no salvation! "For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH...You keep say man has to use (his faith), or mans part is using his faith.
Faith is not the Gift of God in Ephesians 2:8&9, Salvation is the Gift of God to those who have faith in Jesus, even on his name! "For by grace are ye save...not of yourselves, it is a gift of God. Now just what is God really giving? What is it that man cannot do? Man cannot save himself! God gives salvation as a free gift to those who have faith in His Son, even on his name.Saving faith is from God, Eph.2:8 it is a gift.
It should be obvious to you that there are unreasonable and wicked men, and that Paul would ask the Thessalonianse to pray to God for his protection. Though all men are capable of having faith in God, many do not! Some even Hate God and are bent on destroying ALL who belong to God. Hitler is a good example, Voltaire is another, Radical ISLAM is another expression of Hate aimed at those faithful to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.2 Thessalonians 3:2, And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.Since not everyone has faith, "You can rely on the Lord..." Have faith in the lord he is trustworthy![2 Th 3:1] Finally, brothers, pray for us that the Lord's message may spread quickly, and be received with honour as it was among you;
[2 Th 3:2] and pray that we may be preserved from bigoted and evil people, for not everyone has faith.
[2 Th 3:3] You can rely on the Lord, who will give you strength and guard you from the evil One,
[2 Th 3:4] and we, in the Lord, have every confidence in you, that you are doing and will go on doing all that we tell you.
[2 Th 3:5] May the Lord turn your hearts towards the love of God and the perseverance of Christ.To accuse me of such is a lie! I have never once stated that ALL men have saving Faith, but instead that ALL men have the ability to have such faith. Having the FAITH is is different that have the ability to have faith. Having faith is the full basket, having the ability is having the basket.To teach that all man have saving faith of himself is a false teaching.Just how do you think God quickened them? The answer is in verses 8 and 9.Eph.2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.You fail to understand that the Gift of God spoken of in Eph 2:8&9 is "Salvation to those who have Faith", and not the faith that is required for Salvation. Me2, Until you realise that what you believe about faith is false, you may not have the faith that Saves, for faith is what man must have to receive salvation, that free gift of God. Look, God has done everything but give you faith, Can't you believe on your own? God gave you the ability!These are the ones that receive the gift of faith.Yes it Starts with God, from the foundation of the world, through the creation in which God made man in his image, giving man the ability to believe and to act upon that belief into the seventh day when God rested, his work complete. The whole story is complete. BELIEVE IT OR NOT...It's up to you!It starts with God and it stayes with God.
Eph. 1.5-8Now regarding God's Grace. Where in scripture does it say we are to praise the glory of God's Grace? Where does it say anything about the Glory of God's Grace? ALL Glory and Honor belong to God, not his attributes.