Differences... Regeneration/Conversion?

Yah, well my statement should have contained the word "be", as in "be born from above", but alas, in my haste in typing, I inadvertently overlooked my mistake. But I knew you would't. I knew you would attempt to make it say something I had no intention of saying.

 

If you knew it was there and didn't want me to misunderstand why not edit?

That would have been much easier. But the 'man must "born from above" follows your theology, so I naturally thought you meant it just like you wrote it.

Bro. Dallas

 

When I noticed it and attempted to edit, I was refused, "my time had expired", what a crock!

 

Sorry for taking advantage on an obvious misunderstanding on my part. That was a cheap shot.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

Frogman, Getting back to your post,

Of Course it means something to me, It means that there is a realm of existance that is above the natural, physical, mental realm that man can see, feel, touch, taste, and smell. That realm that is hidden from man is the spiritual realm that can be accessed only by faith that it exists. By Nicodemus' question about re-entry into the womb of his mother, Nicodemus indicated that he believed that Jesus was talking about the natural, earthly realm. Jesus chided Nicodemus by saying, "if I have told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"

When man is born into the earthly natural man, he is comprised of a body of flesh, and that life force which quickens the flesh. With that combination, man is nothing more than monkey. However, that is not all that man is born with, you see, because the true essence of man is spirit. It is man's spirit that departs the flesh when man dies. It is the human spirit that is made in the image of God who is spirit.

It is the spirit that is dead in sin, not the flesh. Paul calls the flesh "the tent" in which the spirit (inner man) lives. When the tent wears out, the spirit goes to be with the one in whom it has faith.

Being born again means a transformation of the human spirit through belief. Before believing in God, the human spirit is dead to God, there is no life in it. It is like the soil without any seed, dry and barren. Once a seed of faith (not faith, but only a seed) is planted in soil, the seed comes to life by the "adding" of the ingredients of life, moisture, nutrients, and temperature and light. When through hearing of the word of God, this adding of Life giving ingredients, to the spirit of man, causes the transformation from 'dead' into 'living'. This process of transformation is called "believing". Even so, there is yet to be "a plant" that results from this process for the seedling Faith of the spirit has not yet broken the surface of the Ground and come into the Sonlight. If the soil is too hard, the seed cannot get the "ingredients of life", and lays there until the "birds" come and take it away. If the soil is rocky, with too few nutrients, the seed may sprout, but without a sufficient supply of nutrients, it will wither and die. If the soil is too weedy, the plant does not get sufficient Sonlight, and the seedling gets choked out and dies. But if the soil is good soil, the seed gets sufficient life giving nutrients and Sonlight, the seedling grows into life saving faith which breaks through the surface of the ground so that others can see it.

The germination of the seed is known as "being born again", so, from the Parable of the sower, one can see that not all who are born again, are able to grow into faith sufficient to be harvested (saved), and that is due to the ground into which the seed of faith is sewn. Some soil is too hard for faith to grow, some lacks life giving nutrients, some is too busy with the cares of life (weeds). But that soil which is "good soil" enables the seedling faith to sprout into life giving faith. It is the Holy Spirit that waters the soil, It is God who made the soil to begin with, and it is Jesus' blood spilt on the ground that gives the soil the proper nutrients. The Sonlight is the word of God by which the plant (faith) is either strengthened, or withered. Come harvest time, only those seeds of faith that grew into strong faith, will be harvested. The others who did not grow, remain dead and cannot be harvested.

Well it just so happens that God set in place the mechanism within man whereby man can and does reproduce regardless of God's blessing. That was part of the creation package. Man is corrupting that "blessing of God", by using it for the wrong purpose, and thereby bringing upon himself, the consequences of doing so, such as Sexually transmitted diseases, overpopulation, abortion, the willful killing of life, jealousies, unfaithfulness, etc.

And what might that be? After all, Theology is man's study of God.

God has no reason to have a "theology" because He is the subject of such study! God created Man as his final act of creation, "saving the best for last" and it was "so taxing" that God Rested when he finished creating man.

Man is what religion is all about! If not for man there would be no religion! Cows don't go to church, Dogs and cats don't pray to God, only upon each other. Fish go to school, but not to church! Birds may flock, but not to church! No my friend, Religion and Theology are all about man.

God has no need for any of it! God will learn nothing by it! Without man there is no reason for the existance of either Theology or Religion. These only serve the purpose of guiding man, and do nothing for, or to God.

You perceive that my personal religion is based upon what man can do for his own salvation, and you think, out of your own biases, that I believe man has some kind of ability to make salvation possible. Well sir, you have not read me correctly at all! The only thing that man has the ability to do is believe, and that too is God given. Believing is man, the soil, 'accepting' the seeds of faith that God sows among mankind. By accepting the seed, man becomes an active part in salvation by being the good soil in which Faith grows from seed into Salvation. Without the soil, there is no place to grow Faith for the harvest, thus there can be no Salvation, for there is nothing worth saving.

It is all about Man! God was eternal before creating, and is Eternal in his creation, and will be eternal after this creation passes away. It is by FAITH alone that man is saved in this creation for the coming eternity.

 

Here you must realize that what is needed is spiritual life for man to understand those things that are above the realm of his mental capacities. This spiritual life is regeneration.

I think you know this, but I am going to post it anyway. Theology is the study of God, yes it is pursued by man, but it is the study of God.

Theo means God
ology added to it means the study of God, nowhere is the center of theology found to be man. The only man found in Theology will be the man Jesus Christ and that is because he is Immanuel--God with us. He [God] has been manifested in the flesh, He has tabernacled [dwelled] with men.

Bro. Dallas

 

Theology, the study of God. I know and understand that.

Who engages in Theology? Clue, it ain't God!

So is Theology all about God, or is theology all about man seeking to know God? Clue, God does not seek to know God!

Therefore, Theology is all about man!

 

Humanism is all about man.

Bro. Dallas

Spell it:

Hu-MAN-ism

See man in this?

THEO-logy

Where is man?

 

Animals have spirit. The difference in man is soul.

As far as a seed goes, you cannot plant an apple seed and grow a peach tree.

Concerning the ability to reproduce there are numerous couples who are faithful to each other yet cannot have children. The Bible even speaks of some women who was barren before the Lord opened their womb. Sara, Hannah, etc.

It is not a transformation, it is a new creation, man cannot create, not even the old creation.

This creation is by the power of God. By the Spirit of holiness which raised Christ from the grave [Rom. 1].

If there is no life, how can there be anything good? This equals to total depravity brother. If there is no life how can this spiritually dead individual excercise faith, how can he believe? He cannot until God regenerates him/her, then he/she will not fail to believe, will not fail to repent, will not fail to be raised at the last day. These are all found within chapter 6 of John.

Animals are not totally depraved either...go figure that!! Animals are immediately obedient to the command of God...without repentance nor believing the promises of God...go figure!!!! There was a donkey, a rooster, some ravens, some lions and don't forget all the animals Noah had on the Ark, how do you think they were gathered?

Religion may be all about man, but proper Theology is not.

If I have perceived this it is because you continually state this by clinging to the idea that God cannot save man until man believes. It is much simpler than this. Man will not believe until God regenerates him, this is proven each day all over the world. You are right, God was, is, and shall be eternal. He is, was, and remains Sovereign as well.

Think about this, man will not pass away and we are even now in eternity, so that leaves God as Sovereign right. Man is mortal, his flesh dies, but the bodies of all men shall be raised:

1 Corinthians chapter 1

[ October 05, 2003, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

No one here is expounding humanism, so let's leave that aside.

Who is it that engages in Theology?

Who is it that engagement in Theology satisfies?

Who is it that God want's to return to Him.

All Human's, All mankind, His will is that none should perish, but that All should have Eternal life.

Since He made us in his image, possessing many of the attributes that He himself had

This says that man was very much like God, and that God had to take action to keep man from becoming, through sin, an eternal being with the knowledge of Good and Evil. If we are made so well as to be that close to God that only relative minor changes make us like him. Then, one really insults God by making the claims that mankind, God's crown of creation, is nothing but the lowest of worms, totally depraved, unable to respond to the one who created him. That does not give God very much credit. In fact, it is the kind of thinking that is completely depriving man of the Joy of being God's creation. It is time to stop that kind of thinking and set the record straight. We are made in the image of God having the abilities that God gave us, possessing the gifts that he showered upon mankind. But we are sinners, and it is sin that separates us from God. And the only way we can get back to God is by God doing all the work, and us doing the believing.

 

God is infallible, unable to sin, man is fallible and willing to and even not unable to sin.

It is an insult to God to imagine man is now in the image of God.

Note:

Did you see vs. 3. I decided to not highlight nor bold it, this is typical of the kind of choice man is able to make, one without eternal effects. But did you see it? This teaches us that Christ is the express image of his person. This means that other men/people are not. This is why it was possible for Adam to have sinned. He (Adam) is not an eternal being, but is finite. God is infinite, Christ is infinite.

Bro. Dallas

 

Did you see vs. 3. I decided to not highlight nor bold it, this is typical of the kind of choice man is able to make, one without eternal effects. But did you see it? This teaches us that Christ is the express image of his person. This means that other men/people are not. This is why it was possible for Adam to have sinned. He (Adam) is not an eternal being, but is finite. God is infinite, Christ is infinite.

Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]The difference is that we "normal" people are created beings where as, Jesus was a "begotten" being, the direct offspring of God the Father.

Yes, verse 3 is worth highlighting because it declares the purpose for Jesus being manifest in the flesh. Purge, as I understand it means to cleanse away all "residue" by washing, cleansing, sanitizing, etc, by sandblasting, high pressure air or water, with detergents, or solvents, etc. And the residue of sin is purged by blood of an innocent, spotless sacrificial lamb, that leaves no traces or residue material from the former person we were. Now scriptures say that Jesus did that for ALL the sins of ALL the people, not just some nebulous "elect".

Therefore, Sins are not held against even the most vile of sinners. Does that mean that we can go on sinning? As Paul tells us "God forbid" that we should do so.

Please note that the verses you posted do not declare that the work the Christ performed saves mankind. It only eliminates sin as a factor for judgment of mankind.

Paul also tells us that works are not a factor in salvation. So, if Jesus did not save us through atonement, and we cannot work our way to heaven, that leaves us with faith alone as the only factor to be considered for our salvation..."whosoever believeth in Him..." What Atonement does for man is it justifies man before the throne of God. Those who believe ARE NOT JUDGED, but those who do not Believe ARE JUDGED BY THEIR UNBELIEF! That is what Jesus, the sacrificial lamb that took away the sins of the world says in John 3:18 to Nicodemus, and subsequently to us all.

Faith is not a gift of God, Salvation is! Faith is what we must possess of our own doing, and it requires no effort on our part to have faith, as it comes as the result of "persuasion" from hearing the Word of God.

We must choose to believe, and once we believe, we must "work to sustain our belief" by studying God's word (after we are "marked for" salvation). We must perform the works of the "renewed spirit" that is within us, caused by believing in God. When our spirit comes to believe in God, it is renewed, "purged" if you will. We are "converted" from unbeliever to believer, thereby having a "new spirit" within us.

We are "sanctified" by our belief, moved from the "goat herd" to the "sheep herd" and we will listen to the voice of our "new shepherd", who will guide us to greener pastures where the "still waters" flow.

When we die from this natural life, and it is appointed unto man once to die, believing in Jesus, we immediately, according to Paul, go to be with our Shepherd. Unbelievers are judged for their unbelief alone, and are cast into the lake of fire.

Yes, we are judged according to our deeds, but that 'deeds' judgment is not an "eternal life issue", it is a rewards issue. If one's deeds are all bad, yet the one is a believer in Jesus, that one receives eternal life with Christ, in the same manner as the "worker in the fields" who worked hard all day. The wage is the same for both, eternal life with Christ. The one who worked all day in the fields is rewarded for the work done, in in undisclosed compensation, but both receive eternal life, which is the wage paid for believing in Jesus. .

 

I was referring you to 'he is the express image of God' [paraphrase].

The fact that Christ is the only 'Begotten' Son of God does not mean there is the possibility he could have sinned. Christ is eternal, the body for which God prepared for Him possessed the feelings, emotions, etc. that you and I possess, but this body did not include the ability to sin. He stood as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world means that he was set apart even before man was created even as the paschal lamb in Israel would have been separated from the others. His manifestation in the flesh did not hinder the fact that He is God, therefore, He is/was unable to sin in any way what so ever.

Bro. Dallas

 

The body is not where sin in man resides! It is, instead in the spirit of man that sin resides. That is why the spirit must control the flesh for the spirit is the life of the flesh. The flesh can do nothing but what flesh does, and there is no flesh that sins of its own accord, because all sin comes out of the spirit that resides "within" the flesh.

Eve's flesh did not make her pick and eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam's flesh did not make him take the fruit from the hand of Eve and eat of it. It was the spirit with both of them that sinned, and it is the spirit of man, the decendents of Adam and Eve, that causes man to sin.

That is why Paul teaches that we must subdue the flesh, and that is done by the control of the spirit. What is in the spirit is manifest in the flesh, and that is why Jesus could not sin, for there is no sin in the spirit of God! Human nature is passed from generation to generation through the male of the species. Jesus was conceived through the power of the Spirit of God, and not through a human sperm donor. Hence He could not sin!

When our spirit is "renewed" through the cleansing of the Word of God, our outward desire to sin is dramatically reduced, and why, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and Just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We are in a "spiritual warfare" and not a physical warfare. However for humans, the spiritual warfare is manifest in, or "expressed through" the flesh.

When we are converted (regenerated), our spirit is not removed and another spirit inserted in place of the old, but the blood of Christ purges us, the word of God fills us with knowledge, and the Holy Spirit empowers our spirit to control our flesh.

If one continues to sin, that continuation could cause one to stop believing and in truth invite 'other spirits' in to influence the human spirit. This "control" issue then could cause one to lose faith in God, and thus lose his "newly gained" Salvation. You know, 'Rocky soil' and 'weedy soil', 'heat' and lack of 'water' that causes one's faith to die.

It is only when one continues to grow in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, that one's faith grows stronger, thus assuring one's salvation.

 

I disagree

man has either the spirit of antichrist, or the spirit of christ within them.


1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.


Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Man was born with a cursed carnal spirit.

God imparts his righteous spirit into man upon initial salvation.

A "miracle" that can only be accepted by faith.

 

Me2,
Have you considered that the word "spirit" need not mean literally a personal entity? But that it may mean the essence of thought. For example, team spirit, the spirit of St. Lewis, the spirit of good will, the spirit of the thing, a spirited debate, a high spirited horse, etc., etc.

Have you considered that Man is spirit, in the image of God, while a "tent of flesh"?

In other words, in 1 John 4:1 the "every spirit" may not be a person at all, but rather a philosophy, a way of thinking about something, a dogma, a doctrine, etc.

The "spirit of the world vs the spirit of God could easily be "world thinking" vs "God thinking".

The spirit of truth and Spirit error are not persons, but ideologies.

The spirit of Anti-christ is also an ideology and not a person.

The spirit of man is devoid of God, and must be regenerated, made new, restored, changed, etc., but NOT REPLACED! The spirit is the life of the flesh, so think about what would happen to the flesh if the life was taken from it? If you say that you put the spirit of God into the flesh first then remove the old spirit, there would be two conflicts. 1 which spirit has control, when both are present, and how is it possible for HOLY to occupy the same body as UNHOLY?

I believe you need to pray about this and do some serious re-thinking.

 

Yelsew,

your funny..a little blind maybe, but you didnt seem to read my last post.
contained within are scripture written by others that have experienced first hand as to being under the influence of a spirit entity.

as I am expressing the same things. Let me repeat.

man has either the spirit of antichrist, or the spirit of christ within them.


1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.


Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Man was born with a cursed carnal spirit.

God imparts his righteous spirit into man upon initial salvation.

A "miracle" that can only be accepted by faith.

the foolishness is that God dwells within man.

heres the kicker. man doesnt want someone controlling their lives. when christians say that God is inside the believer..they freak!
Man want to remain sitting on his throne controlling his will...Not God.!

ergo.. the test of the false prophet...
Is the spirit of God inside you?


and not only has the holy spirit come to visit. but your very own spirit has been completely judged found guilty. been destroyed and a new spirit put inside your new Spiritual Body..

again..sounds like a miracle had to occur to acheive all that.

and now you and I are expected to "believe" this. thats what the spirit is saying inside us.
all we have to do is listen. and agree.


1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

the false prophet DENIES this REALITY

the identifying mark of a true christian..the confession of the spirit of God "within" them. that they have become a new creature joined to the righteous spirit of Jesus Christ that resides within their bodies....

think about it.


Me2

[ October 07, 2003, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

You are not expressing the same thing as the writer of scripture, because the spirit of antichrist is not a spirit being, but rather the spiritual essence of those who are against the Christ. Antichrist is a belief system.

In light of your opening barrage, am I to take this as an accusation? If yes, I can certainly say the same thing of you simply because you do not recognize the meaning of words as they are used and applied. If the Holy Spirit is "enlightening your understanding" then we are all in serious trouble. Again, If Yes, are you using this scripture to say that if one does not agree with your understanding, that one is not receiving Holy Spirit guidance? Once more I have to say that we are all in serious trouble.

So then, what is it that actually occupies your heart? I would remind you that you are spirit, and the evidence is Paul's teaching that to be absent from the flesh is to be present with the Lord. So, exactly what is it that is sent "into your heart"? Is it a spirit being that is separate from your own spirit, or is it the essence of God's spirit that enters your heart through the hearing of the Word of God?

Does a spirit have to be a spirit being in order to exist? Can a philosophy that one confronts not have the spirit of anti-Christ? Can an ideology not have the spirit of anti-christ? Must such actually be spirit beings to exist?

This is an opinion and should be labeled as such, because you cannot prove it.

This too is an opinion for Righteousness is an attribute, not a commodity that one can hand to another.

Granted, any time one becomes a believer in Jesus Christ it is through belief and is a miracle.

Why is this foolishness? If you call yourself an American, your guiding principle of life is the teachings of democracy. If you call yourself Christian the teachings of Christ is your guiding principles.

You are absolutely wrong! Why do you think all men seek good government and trustworthy leaders? It is because they want to be led! No one with a lick of sense wants anarchy!

Ditto!

This is phony balony that you cannot prove with scripture!

The miracle is that you are so duped!

My agreement is with the Spirit but not with you, cause you don't have a clue!

I have thought about it and conclude that you are wrongly dividing the Word of Truth. My disagreement is not with the scriptures, but rather with your interpretation of them.

 

Yelsew,

do you actually realize that the consequences of the curse is spiritual death?

and Mans cursed spirit IS DESTINED FOR DEATH and DESTRUCTION. we are born in spiritual death. seperated from Gods life (zoa)

nothing can overt this decision. we know this to be eventually true. we await the judgement for final pronouncement of verdict after death.

mankind has within his body a cursed spirit that cannot be saved. It must be destroyed.

100's of billions of cursed spirits destined for destruction and...

God has and will only raised One spirit from the dead. (who???)

at death our souls are detached from our cursed spirit. the spirit is judged, destroyed and God re-attaches Jesus Righteous spirit to our soul.
hence, giving eternal life.

as towards christians that are alive in their physical bodies. they have been judged peradventure of their actual physical death. their spirits have been judged and replaced with Christs righteous spirit and returned into the christians body of flesh.

at the christians physical death. they enter straight into heaven. with their new righteous body, spirit and soul.

heres a trick. does our spirit reside inside our cursed bodies of flesh?. No. It resides in a spiritual body. an invisible enclosure. seperating our physical body and new righteous spirit.

Me2

 

One needs be completely depraved to not realize that all men must die then the judgement...except for those who by faith alone in Jesus Christ, even in His name, who will not be judged but by faith pass from death unto life everlasting with Jesus. You call it a curse, but I find nothing in scripture that calls it that. Death is the Consequence of sin, Man sins! Man's spirit is not cursed, but judgment does hang over the whole of mankind because of sin. God made it so very easy to come out from under that Judgment by providing His grace so that whosoever believeth in His only begotten Son Jesus, shall not perish but have everlasting life. Cursed? Only those who refuse to believe in Jesus are cursed, for they shall face the Judgment of God.

What a perverted view of God's creation.

show me in scripture where mans soul is detached from man's spirit and gets replaced by attachment of Jesus' spirit. By the way what version of the bible are you using?

what are you smokin'

Describe "spirit" for us. What is its form, substance, nature, etc. Prove your beliefs in scripture.