Differences... Regeneration/Conversion?

[Yelsew]

tnelson, To whom was Jesus speaking when He said this in verse 44?

Yes, it was to the jewish religious leaders in the synagogue in Capernaum. Now if you put the picture together, the Jews were Hardened by God. "He came unto his own and his own received him not" God had hardened the Jews hearts so that they rejected His only son. But,

[John 6:40] It is my Father's will that whoever sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and that I should raise that person up on the last day.

Now, without doubt, there were but few Jews who came to Jesus because the Father drew them.

However, due to the hardness of heart of the Jews, the gospel was opened up to the gentiles who would accept it because their hearts had not been hardened by God. And it was God who said, Whosoever will may come, leaving "the coming" to human belief and choice.

 

[Frogman]

Unless you are a Jew.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Unless you are a Jew.

Bro. Dallas

Not true, because the whosoevers include the Jews. It is quite simple Frogman, the Jews refused to believe Jesus is the Messiah they had long waited for.

The hardening of the jews occured earlier also, because they did not believe the report of Joshua and Aaron, but instead believed the reports of the other ten scouts sent into the land. Therefore God caused them to continue their wanderings for another generation, denying them entry into the promised land.

 

[tyndale1946]

Well gentlemen I have returned to the fray for a while anyway... As the one who started this post I have one question for those who believe that belief is necessary for regeneration... If it is then are not the devils and demons also regenerated as they believe in God and tremble?... Since regeneration by word breakdown means again genesis or born again would not the devils also be born again since they also believe and if not why not?... And Yelsew before you get on your high horse and try to beat that dead horse to the finish line... What are you going to do with the scripture that concludes both Jews and Gentiles in unbelief that God might have mercy on us all?... Can we believe on our own before we are regenerated and do we have the capacity to believe in God before it is written in our hearts and minds according to scripture?... I hope what I had to say doesn't overwhelm you brethren and as rsr use to tell me Brother Glen you don't ask easy questions do you?... No I don't and I know Frogmans fingers are on fire to get to the keyboard... So go gettum Bro. Dallas or Mrs. Frogman!

... Brother Glen

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
Well gentlemen I have returned to the fray for a while anyway... As the one who started this post I have one question for those who believe that belief is necessary for regeneration... If it is then are not the devils and demons also regenerated as they believe in God and tremble?... Since regeneration by word breakdown means again genesis or born again would not the devils also be born again since they also believe and if not why not?... And Yelsew before you get on your high horse and try to beat that dead horse to the finish line... What are you going to do with the scripture that concludes both Jews and Gentiles in unbelief that God might have mercy on us all?... Can we believe on our own before we are regenerated and do we have the capacity to believe in God before it is written in our hearts and minds according to scripture?... I hope what I had to say doesn't overwhelm you brethren and as rsr use to tell me Brother Glen you don't ask easy questions do you?... No I don't and I know Frogmans fingers are on fire to get to the keyboard... So go gettum Bro. Dallas or Mrs. Frogman!

... Brother Glen

Your question then could also include Satan, for he truly believed that Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah. Satan knew from before the foundation of the world, that Jesus is who and what He is. But that did not stop Satan from attempting to usurp the Throne of God. And as the Story Goes, Satan gets it in the end by being cast into the lake of fire.

So it is not so much what you believe as what you do with your belief.

Faith cometh by HEARING, and HEARING by the word of God. Hearing is "writing the word of God in our hearts and minds". It is what we have in our minds by which we are persuaded. Persuaded meaning believes. It is the word that we hear that persuades us.

The Gideons have reams and reams of testimonies of people who have come to know Jesus and believe in him by "reading the Gideon Bibles in motel and hotel rooms". Many pick up the Gideon bible out of boredom, some due to outside weather conditions, some out of loneliness. Few because the Holy Spirit caused them to, but we don't know that for a fact. We do know that faith is not "implanted into humanity from an external source", because faith is something that man is to have, not receive.

Is "hearing" an instantaneous event? In most cases No! Just as anything we come to believe, we must have time to evaluate it and determine for ourselves whether or not it is believable. If it is believable, then we accept it as part of our belief system. If not believable, we do not include it.

We often hear the comment "I don't believe it!" after some accomplishment has been made. Yet, the result of the accomplishment is in truth belief that it did happen and not unbelief. We did after all, witness the accomplishment. We saw it happen or we see the result of it happening. We don't have much choice but to accept it.

However, with spiritual things, it is not so easy to distinguish as with physical things, and that is where belief actually comes into play. We hear promises of that which we would hope will happen to us, but we have no tangible evidence that it does, in fact, happen to us. So we develop faith in the promise because we have no proof. We hear the promise, like the sound of the promise, and decide for ourselves whether or not to believe the promise.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew:

Not true, because the whosoevers include the Jews. It is quite simple Frogman, the Jews refused to believe Jesus is the Messiah they had long waited for.

The hardening of the jews occured earlier also, because they did not believe the report of Joshua and Aaron, but instead believed the reports of the other ten scouts sent into the land. Therefore God caused them to continue their wanderings for another generation, denying them entry into the promised land.

I don't understand this kind of thinking. Were the Jews hardened in order that the Gentiles can be the whosoevers...or were the Jews not hardened? You seem to support both premises in the above statement found in Romans 11.5:

If the Jews are originally hardened, then why does Paul make the statement

5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And then again in Romans 11:

7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

And again:

8  (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

And again:

11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12  Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

And again:

15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

I can't see your statement following scripture. Can you help me?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

We have a twentieth century example of the condition of the Jews in Jesus time.

Look at Russia under Communism. The government of the USSR would not let their people learn and understand Democracy or Capitalism. The Governement was hardened against democracy. However, the people who believed in something better and could escape to democracy, did so.

The hardening of the Jews is the same thing, though slightly different. The leadership of the Jews were hardened against Christianity BY GOD! Hardened to the point they killed it's originator. Even so, those Jews who do believe in Jesus to be the Son of God, the Messiah, receive salvation in the very same manner that the gentiles do and that is through faith.

 

[Frogman]

16  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Why did Paul speak the passage above?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

[Gal 3:9] So it is people of faith who receive the same blessing as Abraham, the man of faith.

The curse brought by the Law
[Gal 3:10] On the other hand, all those who depend on the works of the Law are under a curse, since scripture says: Accursed be he who does not make what is written in the book of the Law effective, by putting it into practice.
[Gal 3:11] Now it is obvious that nobody is reckoned as upright in God's sight by the Law, since the upright will live through faith;
[Gal 3:12] and the Law is based not on faith but on the principle, whoever complies with it will find life in it.
[Gal 3:13] Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law by being cursed for our sake since scripture says: Anyone hanged is accursed,
[Gal 3:14] so that the blessing of Abraham might come to the gentiles in Christ Jesus, and so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

The Law did not cancel the promise
[Gal 3:15] To put it in human terms, my brothers: even when a will is only a human one, once it has been ratified nobody can cancel it or add more provisions to it.
[Gal 3:16] Now the promises were addressed to Abraham and to his progeny. The words were not and to his progenies in the plural, but in the singular; and to your progeny, which means Christ.
[Gal 3:17] What I am saying is this: once a will had been long ago ratified by God, the Law, coming four hundred and thirty years later, could not abolish it and so nullify its promise.
[Gal 3:18] You see, if the inheritance comes by the Law, it no longer comes through a promise; but it was by a promise that God made his gift to Abraham.


The purpose of the Law
[Gal 3:19] Then what is the purpose of the Law? It was added to deal with crimes until the `progeny' to whom the promise had been made should come; and it was promulgated through angels, by the agency of an intermediary.
[Gal 3:20] Now there can be an intermediary only between two parties, yet God is one.
[Gal 3:21] Is the Law contrary, then, to God's promises? Out of the question! If the Law that was given had been capable of giving life, then certainly saving justice would have come from the Law.
[Gal 3:22] As it is, scripture makes no exception when it says that sin is master everywhere; so the promise can be given only by faith in Jesus Christ to those who have this faith.

Let me say that I believe that Paul may be wrong when he interpreted progeny to mean only one person. For The Hebrew of Genesis 12:7 that Paul quotes, says "seed", and not "progeny". In all of God's creation, I don't know of a single plant that produces only a singular "seed", as Paul is using the term. Plants always produce many seeds from each plant. Animals, particularly Mammals, are different, many of them normally produce only one offspring with each pregnancy. So Paul could be saying that out of Abraham will come a singular progeny. Abraham was a man of faith, Salvation for mankind comes about by Faith in Jesus, the Christ.

[Gen 12:1] Yahweh said to Abram, `Leave your country, your kindred and your father's house for a country which I shall show you;
[Gen 12:2] and I shall make you a great nation, I shall bless you and make your name famous; you are to be a blessing!
[Gen 12:3] I shall bless those who bless you, and shall curse those who curse you, and all clans on earth will bless themselves by you.'
[Gen 12:4] So Abram went as Yahweh told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he left Haran.
[Gen 12:5] Abram took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, all the possessions they had amassed and the people they had acquired in Haran. They set off for the land of Canaan, and arrived there.
[Gen 12:6] Abram passed through the country as far as the holy place at Shechem, the Oak of Moreh. The Canaanites were in the country at the time.
[Gen 12:7] Yahweh appeared to Abram and said, `I shall give this country to your progeny.' And there, Abram built an altar to Yahweh who had appeared to him.
[Gen 12:8] From there he moved on to the mountainous district east of Bethel, where he pitched his tent, with Bethel to the west and Ai to the east. There he built an altar to Yahweh and invoked the name of Yahweh.
[Gen 12:9] Then Abram made his way stage by stage to the Negeb.

 

[GH]

Hi Yelsew,

Let's go way back for a moment. Way back before there were Jews or the nation of Israel.

God CALLED Abraham out of UR. When God speaks to a person, he hears and obeys. Or maybe it was the stars and the sun and the moon (creation) that spoke to Abram's heart.

Think about it.

 

[Frogman]

Gorillas are upright

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by GH:
Hi Yelsew,

Let's go way back for a moment. Way back before there were Jews or the nation of Israel.

God CALLED Abraham out of UR. When God speaks to a person, he hears and obeys. Or maybe it was the stars and the sun and the moon (creation) that spoke to Abram's heart.

Think about it.

The Question is, Did Abram have faith in God? If NO, then it was only blind obedience by which Abram obeyed God.

I believe that Abram already had an established faith in God and that his FAITH is what caused his obedience to God's call. That is why he left Ur to go where God would take him.

The same with Noah! It was not blind obedience that caused Noah to spend all those years building a boat, IT WAS AN EXISTING FAITH IN GOD! You see, man has the ability to have faith in an unseen God, just as we today have the ability to have FAITH in an unseen God.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Gorillas are upright

Bro. Dallas

Are you just now recognizing that fact?

 

[GH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GH:
Hi Yelsew,

Let's go way back for a moment. Way back before there were Jews or the nation of Israel.

God CALLED Abraham out of UR. When God speaks to a person, he hears and obeys. Or maybe it was the stars and the sun and the moon (creation) that spoke to Abram's heart.

Think about it.

The Question is, Did Abram have faith in God? If NO, then it was only blind obedience by which Abram obeyed God.

I believe that Abram already had an established faith in God and that his FAITH is what caused his obedience to God's call. That is why he left Ur to go where God would take him.

The same with Noah! It was not blind obedience that caused Noah to spend all those years building a boat, IT WAS AN EXISTING FAITH IN GOD! You see, man has the ability to have faith in an unseen God, just as we today have the ability to have FAITH in an unseen God. </font>[/QUOTE]Who said anything about blind obedience?

I'm talkin' revelation of the Living God.

This results in faith.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GH:
Hi Yelsew,

Let's go way back for a moment. Way back before there were Jews or the nation of Israel.

God CALLED Abraham out of UR. When God speaks to a person, he hears and obeys. Or maybe it was the stars and the sun and the moon (creation) that spoke to Abram's heart.

Think about it.

The Question is, Did Abram have faith in God? If NO, then it was only blind obedience by which Abram obeyed God.

I believe that Abram already had an established faith in God and that his FAITH is what caused his obedience to God's call. That is why he left Ur to go where God would take him.

The same with Noah! It was not blind obedience that caused Noah to spend all those years building a boat, IT WAS AN EXISTING FAITH IN GOD! You see, man has the ability to have faith in an unseen God, just as we today have the ability to have FAITH in an unseen God. </font>[/QUOTE]This is what I have been trying to tell you. There is regeneration in worked by the Holy Spirit prior to an individual's being called as Abram, or Noah, or Moses, or David, or Solomon, or....me.

You see how simple it is Yelsew? God Regenerates; the individual hears the call of God and obedience occurs....and all this by the Grace of God and for the Glory of His Grace.

Amen.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

If you are saying that hearing the word brings faith, then you are saying what I have been saying all along! It's about time that you confessed this truth!

However, you have been posting all along that man cannot hear the word of God without first being "regenerated". THAT is simply not supported in scripture.

 

[Frogman]

I believe that Abram already had an established faith in God

I am sorry you misunderstood me. I understood you to be saying the only reason Abram heard and obeyed was because he already had an established faith in God.

I took this to mean what I mean when I say that man must first be regenerated, simply because Abram, or no other man for that matter will possess faith in God apart from being regenerated.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

However, you have been posting all along that man cannot hear the word of God without first being "regenerated". THAT is simply not supported in scripture.

Jesus disagrees with you, see John 3.3.

 

[Yelsew]

[John 3:3] Jesus answered: In all truth I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.

"Born from above" You are saying that means that God "regenerated" man. I say that in context Jesus is telling Nicodemus, that in order for man to see the kingdom of God, man must "born from above", that is, have a renewing of the human spirit through faith, and that faith comes from "hearing" and believing! Spiritual rebirth is by faith alone. If you do not have faith which comes from hearing you cannot be born again! If you do not have faith in God you would never invite him to come in to your life. "Behold I stand and the door and Knock, If any man hear and open the door, I will come in and sup with him and he with me" If you do not hear the knock, you will not open the door! Thus, "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

Throughout scripture, Faith is the overriding element in understanding the things of the Kingdom of God. If one does not believe, one cannot understand, that is, "see" the Kingdom. Truly, one cannot see heaven through elements of the physical life. It is by faith alone that we can see any part of the kingdom of God. It is only when our spirit departs the flesh that we can see God as he is, for it is then spirit seeing Spirit!

 

[Frogman]

Jesus did not go into all that explaination. But when questioned he simply said if I have told you earthly things and ye believe not how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

This doesn't mean anything to you?

Jesus did not tell Nicodemus to just have faith and he could "born from above". He said except a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom.

How can a man born himself from above, man is not from above? Is he?

How can man influence a spiritual birth when he cannot influence his physical birth?

Some questions that I am sure you deal with often if this is the way you present the Gospel to anyone. Man must "born again" what does that mean?

Man does not even have the power to reproduce physically except God blesses.

You really ought to develop a theology that does not have man as its center.

Focus on the DAYSMAN.
Bro. Dallas