Differences... Regeneration/Conversion?

[Yelsew]

Please post the scripture references that you hang your belief on that support your statements about "regeneration first".

"Making disciples" is "persuading people to believe in Jesus". Jesus gave the command, therefore those who become disciples are disciples of the Gospel of Jesus, and not disciples of the Apostles.

The Apostles are the delivery system for the Gospel, therefore their writings are important in teaching the disciples how to live life as disciples of the Christ. The Gospel itself is what persuades one to believe unto salvation and thereby become disciples. The rest of Scriptures are the lessons of life by which the disciples must live, and the promises of what is in store for those who endure to the end (of this natural life) in Faith!

[ September 21, 2003, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

[Frogman]

We have been discussing a major one in Romans 10, especially vss. 14-17 but not limited to those, observe:

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19  But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20  But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21  But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

But before Paul preached this by the Spirit Christ spoke it to Nicodemus:

John 3:1  ¶There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2  The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9  Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10  Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11  Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12  If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
22  ¶After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23  And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
24  For John was not yet cast into prison.
25  Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
26  And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
27  John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28  Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29  He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30  He must increase, but I must decrease.
31  He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32  And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33  He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34  For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

I would recommend a close study of John 3.
Then we can move on to other scriptures.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

From the mouth of Jesus!

When Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, were the people regenerated (saved) before they looked upon the serpent or after they looked and saw the serpent? Seeing is believing!

Does Jesus not imply to Nicodemus that the same condition exists for the son of man being lifted up? That is, if you do not "look" at Jesus through the Word of God, you cannot be saved, even though Jesus was in fact lifted up in sacrifice!

Where does Jesus say that man must be regenerated before man can believe?

[Num 21:4] They left Mount Hor by the road to the Sea of Suph, to skirt round Edom. On the way the people lost patience.
[Num 21:5] They spoke against God and against Moses, `Why did you bring us out of Egypt to die in the desert? For there is neither food nor water here; we are sick of this meagre diet.'
[Num 21:6] At this, God sent fiery serpents among the people; their bite brought death to many in Israel.
[Num 21:7] The people came and said to Moses, `We have sinned by speaking against Yahweh and against you. Intercede for us with Yahweh to save us from these serpents.' Moses interceded for the people,
[Num 21:8] and Yahweh replied, `Make a fiery serpent and raise it as a standard. Anyone who is bitten and looks at it will survive.'
[Num 21:9] Moses then made a serpent out of bronze and raised it as a standard, and anyone who was bitten by a serpent and looked at the bronze serpent survived.

[ September 21, 2003, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

[Frogman]

Brother,
It is obvious from Numbers 21 the people did not believe because they looked upon the serpent, the looked upon the serpent because they were believers. The went to Moses because they were believers.

The looking upon the serpent was symbolic of deliverance in time, not eternity. Salvation from the sinfulness of the people, prevented death.

Obedience results in deliverance.

Grace results in eternal salvation.

Where did Jesus say regeneration is first? In John 3.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

John 3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. [John is speaking of Jesus]
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom:[Jesus] but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him,[John] rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30 He [Jesus] must increase, but I [John]must decrease.
31 He that cometh from above [Jesus] is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly[John], and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven [Jesus] is above all.
32 And what he hath seen and heard, [Jesus] that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony [Whosoever Believeth in Him] hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent [Jesus] speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.[All power and authority, and creation]
36 He that believeth on the Son [US] hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[Frogman]

That is not all of John 3.

 

[Yelsew]

[John 3:1-21] There was one of the Pharisees called Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews, who came to Jesus by night and said,

`Rabbi, we know that you have come from God as a teacher; for no one could perform the signs that you do unless God were with him.'

Jesus answered: In all truth I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.

Nicodemus said, `How can anyone who is already old be born? Is it possible to go back into the womb again and be born?'

Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit; what is born of human nature is human; what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say: You must be born from above. The wind blows where it pleases; you can hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

`How is that possible?' asked Nicodemus.

Jesus replied, `You are the Teacher of Israel, and you do not know these things! `In all truth I tell you, we speak only about what we know and witness only to what we have seen and yet you people reject our evidence. If you do not believe me when I speak to you about earthly things, how will you believe me when I speak to you about heavenly things? No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of man;

as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. For God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but so that through him the world might be saved.

No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God's only Son. And the judgement is this: though the light has come into the world people have preferred darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, to prevent his actions from being shown up; but whoever does the truth comes out into the light, so that what he is doing may plainly appear as done in God.'

Jesus' ministry in Judaea, John bears witness for the last time
[John 3:22-36] After this, Jesus went with his disciples into the Judaean countryside and stayed with them there and baptised. John also was baptising at Aenon near Salim, where there was plenty of water, and people were going there and were being baptised. For John had not yet been put in prison.

Now a discussion arose between some of John's disciples and a Jew about purification, so they went to John and said, `Rabbi, the man who was with you on the far side of the Jordan, the man to whom you bore witness, is baptising now, and everyone is going to him.'

John replied: `No one can have anything except what is given him from heaven. `You yourselves can bear me out. I said, "I am not the Christ; I am the one who has been sent to go in front of him." `It is the bridegroom who has the bride; and yet the bridegroom's friend, who stands there and listens to him, is filled with joy at the bridegroom's voice. This is the joy I feel, and it is complete. He must grow greater, I must grow less. He who comes from above is above all others; he who is of the earth is earthly himself and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven bears witness to the things he has seen and heard, but his testimony is not accepted by anybody; though anyone who does accept his testimony is attesting that God is true, since he whom God has sent speaks God's own words, for God gives him the Spirit without reserve. The Father loves the Son and has entrusted everything to his hands. Anyone who believes in the Son has eternal life, but anyone who refuses to believe in the Son will never see life: God's retribution hangs over him.

I don't know what it is you see in this passage of Scripture, but I find nothing where Jesus says or hints toward or eludes that man must be regenerated before one can believe in Him. In fact, His statements indicate that unregenerate man can believe, can do good, and by believing has eternal life.

Perhaps you would be so kind to expound on what you see in John 3 that supports your belief that man must be regenerated prior to being able to believe.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

Sularis,

You have devised a scheme to help you comfortably avoid the issue. Free Will and Free Grace are mutually exclusive. I suppose they both could be wrong, but both cannot be right. The act of choosing with regards to eternal salvation is never attributed to man in the Scripture, but always to God.

 

[Yelsew]

Free Will and Free Grace are mutually exclusive.

NOT SO! If you understood grace, you would never say this.

Man's Will is always free, and man can choose to believe and or do whatever man wills to do so long as it is in mans range of God - given abilities to do so.

Biblical or Divine Grace is "unearned favor", shown by one toward another, It is not tangible, you cannot scoop up a handful, you cannot bag it and take it to the marketplace, etc. It too, has no constraints except those constraints of the one showing the grace. With divine Grace the one showing that grace is unlimited, therefore His grace is unlimited.

It is while God's grace is being shown toward man that man's will comes into play. Therefore, without God's grace, man has no will!

 

[Yelsew]

Frogman posted Romans 10:14-21 as a reference to his belief that one must be regenerated prior to believing in the Christ. I have expanded that to include verses 4 through 21 for contextual frame.

[Rom 10:4] But the Law has found its fulfilment in Christ so that all who have faith will be justified.

The testimony of Moses
[Rom 10:5-13] Moses writes of the saving justice that comes by the Law and says that whoever complies with it will find life in it. But the saving justice of faith says this: Do not think in your heart, `Who will go up to heaven?' - that is to bring Christ down; or `Who will go down to the depths?'-that is to bring Christ back from the dead.

What does it say, then? The word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the word of faith, the faith which we preach, that if you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and if you believe with your heart that God raised him from the dead, then you will be saved. It is by believing with the heart that you are justified, and by making the declaration with your lips that you are saved. When scripture says: No one who relies on this will be brought to disgrace, it makes no distinction between Jew and Greek: the same Lord is the Lord of all, and his generosity is offered to all who appeal to him, for all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Israel has no excuse
[Rom 10:14-21] How then are they to call on him if they have not come to believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard of him? And how will they hear of him unless there is a preacher for them? And how will there be preachers if they are not sent? As scripture says: How beautiful are the feet of the messenger of good news. But in fact they have not all responded to the good news. As Isaiah says: Lord, who has given credence to what they have heard from us? But it is in that way faith comes, from hearing, and that means hearing the word of Christ. Well then, I say, is it possible that they have not heard? Indeed they have: in the entire earth their voice stands out, their message reaches the whole world. Well, another question, then: is it possible that Israel did not understand? In the first place Moses said: I shall rouse you to jealousy with a non-people, I shall exasperate you with a stupid nation. And Isaiah is even bold enough to say: I have let myself be found by those who did not seek me; I have let myself be seen by those who did not consult me; and referring to Israel, he says: All day long I have been stretching out my hands to a disobedient and rebellious people.

What am I missing here Frogman? Paul reveals that Jesus is the lord of All, and that all who call on him will be saved! If Paul had "KNOWN" that only the elect will believe in Jesus He certainly would have stated it here for you to be able to use this scripture as a "proof text" for your position on "regeneration prior to believing".

So, what are the other scriptures that you rely on for evidence that regeneration must come before believing can take place?

 

[Hardsheller]

Yelsew,

God does something in our lives before we believe. What is it that God does?

Jesus explained it this way.

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Notice: All the folks referenced in this passage had heard about Jesus or had seen him and heard him personally. But not all believed that He was the Christ. Why? Because only God can and does reveal this to individuals.

True Belief comes on the heels of convicting revelation borne by the Holy Spirit to the hearts of specific individuals.

Each one of us who is a True Believer understands that to be the case in our own lives. God made his Son Jesus so real to us that we knew it was a God Thing in our lives - not just another choice we could or could not make.

Yelsew, you said yourself one time that it would take a miracle for your brother to be saved.

You are absolutely right. Every Choice for Salvation by an individual is motivated and preceded by the overwhelming presence of the Holy Spirit - God Himself - bringing about the Miracle of Salvation in that particular individual's life.

I've never once seen a person saved before God got there.

 

[Mrs.Frogman]

Romans 10 is a good one. What you are missing is vs. 14

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

then there is also:

16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

 

[Mrs.Frogman]

Fellas, the post by Mrs.Frogman was actually by Frogman, I made an error in loggin in.

Sorry.

Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

God does something in our lives before we believe. What is it that God does?

Yes, I agree, God calls us to come to Him, but he has been doing that since Seth was born. He Gave the Law to show the way, but we still get lost, and He gave us His Son, and many still do not heed God's call. No my friend, It is up to us to come when called, or to lose out on the opportunity!

I've never once seen a person saved before God got there.

It would certainly be a tragic turn of events if God were ever late to a "saving event", seein' as how God is the one who does the saving.

Remember, there was not a single eye-witness report prior to the first edition of the first of the Gospels, or Paul's letters. There were hand me down stories, but no "scriptural" eye-witness reports like we have today. So, it is entirely possible for one to read or hear the Gospel message and make a choice of whether or not to believe the message. Most of the choice is based on one's experience with those called Christians. If the experience is bad, the one hearing the message is most likely to reject it because the message, when compared to those who believe it does not paint a very good picture. However, if the believers are living the gospel message, the one being exposed to it should choose to believe because he/she sees what it has done in others.

Does it take preconditioning for mankind to believe in "ghosts"? NO! So why do you conclude that it takes preconditioning for mankind to believe in Holy Ghosts? If man can believe in anything having to do with the spiritual realm, and Jesus certainly indicated in his discourse with Nicodemus that man is capable of believing in the spiritual, then man can believe in Jesus and the Heavenly Father, and the Holy Spirit.

It is just very clear to me that Calvinists need to justify for themselves that belief occurs at all. Jesus makes it abundantly clear throughout the Gospels that believing is what man must do of his own power. Jesus says that because Jesus is the creator and knows exactly how he made us.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Mrs.Frogman:
Romans 10 is a good one. What you are missing is vs. 14

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

then there is also:

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

</font>[/QUOTE]In my post of the scripture I included every verse in Romans 10, from vs 4 thru vs 21. All of Romans 10 Paul speakes of Israel and how the Gospel came to the Gentile. He discribes in verse 14 that the Israelites, who don't believe in Jesus cannot hear unless they have a preacher, etc.

 

[Me2]

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Sanctification is a process.. ie, conversion

1Pe 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the APPEARING of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Is Faith, or even knowledge of God, the end of ones salvation?

Is this revelation revealed or exposed to us when we die? Exactly as God promised the OT Saints…..
(do we receive this revelation when we die and not able to receive this revelation while in these bodies of Flesh.)


or are we waiting for Christ to physically appear before us in our future?,
or will he return to us spiritually?

If Faith is not “the end” of our salvation. And knowledge is not “the end”. Then what is the “end” ?, the Goal?

If both are given to man in part.(knowledge and faith)
Then they transform into something Greater
They both transforms into REALITY when their conclusion is reached.


1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Gulp! again are we waiting for perfection to arrive or to be imparted to us.
and prophecying and knowledge done away with...

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your FAITH, [even] the salvation of [your] souls. end? What?..if ..faith substance is hope of and the appearance of christ is the end ?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

the question here as we speak of conversion.

Does the Chief Shepherd appear to usward before our physical death or shall we have to wait, physically die and "stand before his throne" ?

faith as well as knowledge, produces reality.
reality of truth is in the form of Realized evidence.

Is the Realized Evidence to a NT Saint unlike the OT Saints,in that we receive our inheritance of “Things Hoped For While We Are Alive”…namely Eternal life..
Is our heavenly temple made without hands to be occuppied during our physical Life.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh[ is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.


"The Spirit of The Lord Jesus Christ is IN Us".

To Some he has made himself known.
To Some he is still waiting.


Me2

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God does something in our lives before we believe. What is it that God does?

Yes, I agree, God calls us to come to Him, but he has been doing that since Seth was born. He Gave the Law to show the way, but we still get lost, and He gave us His Son, and many still do not heed God's call. No my friend, It is up to us to come when called, or to lose out on the opportunity!

I've never once seen a person saved before God got there.

It would certainly be a tragic turn of events if God were ever late to a "saving event", seein' as how God is the one who does the saving.

Remember, there was not a single eye-witness report prior to the first edition of the first of the Gospels, or Paul's letters. There were hand me down stories, but no "scriptural" eye-witness reports like we have today. So, it is entirely possible for one to read or hear the Gospel message and make a choice of whether or not to believe the message. Most of the choice is based on one's experience with those called Christians. If the experience is bad, the one hearing the message is most likely to reject it because the message, when compared to those who believe it does not paint a very good picture. However, if the believers are living the gospel message, the one being exposed to it should choose to believe because he/she sees what it has done in others.

Does it take preconditioning for mankind to believe in "ghosts"? NO! So why do you conclude that it takes preconditioning for mankind to believe in Holy Ghosts? If man can believe in anything having to do with the spiritual realm, and Jesus certainly indicated in his discourse with Nicodemus that man is capable of believing in the spiritual, then man can believe in Jesus and the Heavenly Father, and the Holy Spirit.

It is just very clear to me that Calvinists need to justify for themselves that belief occurs at all. Jesus makes it abundantly clear throughout the Gospels that believing is what man must do of his own power. Jesus says that because Jesus is the creator and knows exactly how he made us. </font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew,

One question - Does the Holy Spirit actively participate in convicting an individual sinner of sin?

I'd really like to know your answer for this question.

 

[Yelsew]

By Jesus' death on the Cross we are justified

By each individual's belief in Jesus each individual is separately and uniquely sanctified. Belief sets one apart from unbelief.

It is by belief in Jesus that one will do the works of Jesus' spirit..."By their works ye shall know them".

When the human spirit does not believe in Jesus, that spirit, by default, does the works of evil. But when one does believe in Jesus, one does the works associated with Jesus therefore the works of the spirit are good works.

Getting to "belief" is the process that results in sanctification. Remaining in belief is the "on-going process" known as the state of "being sanctified".

When the spirit departs the flesh, it is already justified by Jesus' atonement, and it is already sanctified through the condition of faith. Therefore the separating of the sheep and the goats takes place in this natural life. Those who are justified AND sanctified, are not judged, but those who are merely justified and NOT sanctified are judged, and, because their faith condition is lacking, they are cast into the lake of fire for the second death.

Me2, There is but one occurance of "the elect" in what you posted. Peter declares them to be "elect through their sanctification", which is their individual belief in Jesus, that God sees in our individual spirit. It is our spirit that becomes converted or Sanctified through our individual belief in Jesus. That is Peter saying that because He recognized God's plan of Salvation for man. The Plan that was established and "completed from the foundation of the world." Thus "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

[Yelsew]

Yelsew,

One question - Does the Holy Spirit actively participate in convicting an individual sinner of sin?

I'd really like to know your answer for this question.

When one opens a book in a dark room, one cannot read the book because there is no light by which to read the book. The same principle applies when an unbeliever "reads" the scriptures. Though the page is illuminated by the ambient room light, the unbliever may read the words, and they may remain in his mind. But the true Light of God, His holy Spirit, is the essential light that enables the unbeliever to "see" the truth, and the truth is what convicts one of sin. The role of the Holy Spirit is to illuminate and emphasise the truth so that the unbeliever can come to believe and thereby be saved.

The conviction of ones sins, comes AFTER one believes in Jesus. It is after one believes, that the Spirit of God enables the new believer to "see the truth" concerning their sin.

Sin is not the "convincer" when it comes to Salvation belief. Belief, first that God exists, then second that Jesus is His only begotten Son who gave His life to save man from the penalty of sin, is the convincer. Once one believes in Jesus, the Holy Spirit goes to work of conviction of sin by shining a spotlight on a sin that causes the new believer to see that what he/she is doing is sin in God's eyes. The "saved" sinner must choose to confess his sins, and it may be that this is done one sin at a time, and to repent from sinning that sin. God forgives confessed sins.

Belief that God exists and that Jesus is His Only Son is absolutely essential to Salvation. Belief is the first step to full fledged faith. Salvation begins with human belief in God, Jesus, and even on the name of Jesus, and ends when the saved one is safely into eternal life after the first death, having bypassed judgement through faith, thus avoiding the second death. It is then that faith is no longer needed, because one is safely in the arms of Jesus forever. When you're there, you no longer need faith in getting there. You no longer need faith to remain there, because your life is now eternal, and you have all the knowledge that displaces your once held faith. Ain't God Good?

So, Hardsheller, it is belief in Jesus first, conviction and and confession of sins second, and continuing in faith through to the end of this natural life, then with faith in Jesus, you bypass judgment, and enjoy eternal life with Jesus.

If you miss step one, the rest is immaterial! You are lost!

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yelsew,

One question - Does the Holy Spirit actively participate in convicting an individual sinner of sin?

I'd really like to know your answer for this question.

When one opens a book in a dark room, one cannot read the book because there is no light by which to read the book. The same principle applies when an unbeliever "reads" the scriptures. Though the page is illuminated by the ambient room light, the unbliever may read the words, and they may remain in his mind. But the true Light of God, His holy Spirit, is the essential light that enables the unbeliever to "see" the truth, and the truth is what convicts one of sin. The role of the Holy Spirit is to illuminate and emphasise the truth so that the unbeliever can come to believe and thereby be saved.

The conviction of ones sins, comes AFTER one believes in Jesus. It is after one believes, that the Spirit of God enables the new believer to "see the truth" concerning their sin.

Sin is not the "convincer" when it comes to Salvation belief. Belief, first that God exists, then second that Jesus is His only begotten Son who gave His life to save man from the penalty of sin, is the convincer. Once one believes in Jesus, the Holy Spirit goes to work of conviction of sin by shining a spotlight on a sin that causes the new believer to see that what he/she is doing is sin in God's eyes. The "saved" sinner must choose to confess his sins, and it may be that this is done one sin at a time, and to repent from sinning that sin. God forgives confessed sins.

Belief that God exists and that Jesus is His Only Son is absolutely essential to Salvation. Belief is the first step to full fledged faith. Salvation begins with human belief in God, Jesus, and even on the name of Jesus, and ends when the saved one is safely into eternal life after the first death, having bypassed judgement through faith, thus avoiding the second death. It is then that faith is no longer needed, because one is safely in the arms of Jesus forever. When you're there, you no longer need faith in getting there. You no longer need faith to remain there, because your life is now eternal, and you have all the knowledge that displaces your once held faith. Ain't God Good?

So, Hardsheller, it is belief in Jesus first, conviction and and confession of sins second, and continuing in faith through to the end of this natural life, then with faith in Jesus, you bypass judgment, and enjoy eternal life with Jesus.

If you miss step one, the rest is immaterial! You are lost! </font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew,

Would it be accurate then to say that you believe that the Holy Spirit deals with each lost individual who comes into contact with the Gospel in the same way and with the same intensity?