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Different interpretations based on different interpretations.... lol
- Thread starter TheOldRanger
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“ Hold to the traditions we taught you, either by word of mouth or letter “
Protestants and Baptist’s don’t do this, so they don’t hold to the scripture, nor the word of mouth Tradition Paul is referring to. In rejecting word of mouth Tradition they also reject the written Tradition of scripture.
Scripture is not the sole rule of faith, as scripture states clearly.
The word of mouth Tradition is Apostolic Tradition, it explains the written Tradition, and more besides.
Protestantism tries to create its own religions just from the text, and solely from the text, ignorant of the Apostolic word of mouth Tradition handed down.
Catholics are prebible Christianity that preserved both the written and word of mouth traditions of the Apostles, and determined, declared and canonised the Bible itself.
“Scripture alone” was the new revolutionary unbiblical teaching of Martin Luther.
So that today many get around today thinking that the Bible is sole rule of faith, asking ‘Where is that in the Bible ?”, or saying “ Our church is founded squarely on the Bible?”
But the Church was not founded on the Bible, the Bible did not exist for 400 years. Jesus founded His Church on Peter.
There was this living vibrant authoritive Catholic and Apostolic Church, before the Bible that determined and declared the Bible. It explained the Apostles understanding of scripture.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I hasd asked you some questions in post 13, copied here, perhaps you can respond to them now.
I have to ask where do you where do you find biblical support for Mary worship, transubstantiation, prugatory, Papal infallibility?
I have to ask you under what authority did the RCC change the Commandments of God?
The RCC left out the second one:
Exo 20:4 (II.) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
And then so as to have ten commandments they split the tenth one.
Exo 20:17 (X.) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. EW Bullinger Companion Bible
9. THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE.
COMMANDS: purity in thought.
FORBIDS: wilful impure thought and desires.
10. THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S GOODS.
COMMANDS: respect for the rights of others.
FORBIDS: the desire to take, to keep, or damage the property of others.
UPLOADED BY MICHAEL G HAINS SYSOP CATHOLICS' RESOURCE NETWORK COMPUSERVE ID 76711,1340
This is the Hebrew bible so we can see what the proper text is, so I am just curious as to what else the RCC chose to alter:
Exodus Chapter 20 שְׁמוֹת
א וַיְדַבֵּר אֱלֹהִים, אֵת כָּל-הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה לֵאמֹר. {ס}
1 And God spoke all these words, saying: {S}
ב אָנֹכִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, אֲשֶׁר הוֹצֵאתִיךָ מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם מִבֵּית עֲבָדִים: לֹא-יִהְיֶה לְךָ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים, עַל-פָּנָי.
2 I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
ג לֹא-תַעֲשֶׂה לְךָ פֶסֶל, וְכָל-תְּמוּנָה, אֲשֶׁר בַּשָּׁמַיִם מִמַּעַל, וַאֲשֶׁר בָּאָרֶץ מִתָּחַת--וַאֲשֶׁר בַּמַּיִם, מִתַּחַת לָאָרֶץ.
3 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
ד לֹא-תִשְׁתַּחֲוֶה לָהֶם, וְלֹא תָעָבְדֵם: כִּי אָנֹכִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, אֵל קַנָּא--פֹּקֵד עֲוֺן אָבֹת עַל-בָּנִים עַל-שִׁלֵּשִׁים וְעַל-רִבֵּעִים, לְשֹׂנְאָי.
4 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;
ה וְעֹשֶׂה חֶסֶד, לַאֲלָפִים--לְאֹהֲבַי, וּלְשֹׁמְרֵי מִצְוֺתָי. {ס}
5 and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments. {S}
ו לֹא תִשָּׂא אֶת-שֵׁם-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, לַשָּׁוְא: כִּי לֹא יְנַקֶּה יְהוָה, אֵת אֲשֶׁר-יִשָּׂא אֶת-שְׁמוֹ לַשָּׁוְא. {פ}
6 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain. {P}
ז זָכוֹר אֶת-יוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת, לְקַדְּשׁוֹ.
7 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
ח שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים תַּעֲבֹד, וְעָשִׂיתָ כָּל-מְלַאכְתֶּךָ.
8 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work;
ט וְיוֹם, הַשְּׁבִיעִי--שַׁבָּת, לַיהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ: לֹא-תַעֲשֶׂה כָל-מְלָאכָה אַתָּה וּבִנְךָ וּבִתֶּךָ, עַבְדְּךָ וַאֲמָתְךָ וּבְהֶמְתֶּךָ, וְגֵרְךָ, אֲשֶׁר בִּשְׁעָרֶיךָ.
9 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto the LORD thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;
י כִּי שֵׁשֶׁת-יָמִים עָשָׂה יְהוָה אֶת-הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֶת-הָאָרֶץ, אֶת-הַיָּם וְאֶת-כָּל-אֲשֶׁר-בָּם, וַיָּנַח, בַּיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי; עַל-כֵּן, בֵּרַךְ יְהוָה אֶת-יוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת--וַיְקַדְּשֵׁהוּ. {ס}
10 for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. {S}
יא כַּבֵּד אֶת-אָבִיךָ, וְאֶת-אִמֶּךָ--לְמַעַן, יַאֲרִכוּן יָמֶיךָ, עַל הָאֲדָמָה, אֲשֶׁר-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ נֹתֵן לָךְ. {ס}
11 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. {S}
יב לֹא תִרְצָח, {ס} לֹא תִנְאָף; {ס} לֹא תִגְנֹב, {ס} לֹא-תַעֲנֶה בְרֵעֲךָ עֵד שָׁקֶר. {ס}
12 Thou shalt not murder. {S} Thou shalt not commit adultery. {S} Thou shalt not steal. {S} Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. {S}
יג לֹא תַחְמֹד, בֵּית רֵעֶךָ; {ס} לֹא-תַחְמֹד אֵשֶׁת רֵעֶךָ, וְעַבְדּוֹ וַאֲמָתוֹ וְשׁוֹרוֹ וַחֲמֹרוֹ, וְכֹל, אֲשֶׁר לְרֵעֶךָ. {פ}
13 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; {S} thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. {P}
I await your reply
Let’s talk about Commandments first.
What you are comparing is the commandments as listed by Origen and Augustine. Catholics and Lutherans use Augustine’s list, other Protestants use Origen’s list.
Firstly the Commandments are not numbered in the Bible, and there’s no explicit order for them to be numbered.
Secondly there is about 17 different Commandments if you add them all up.
Over the centuries Christian scholars have made different lists.
Catholics do include the Commandment against graven images, if you read the long form list of the Commandments in our Catechism.
“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.” CCC #2084.
What you are comparing is the commandments as listed by Origen and Augustine. Catholics and Lutherans use Augustine’s list, other Protestants use Origen’s list.
Firstly the Commandments are not numbered in the Bible, and there’s no explicit order for them to be numbered.
Secondly there is about 17 different Commandments if you add them all up.
Over the centuries Christian scholars have made different lists.
Catholics do include the Commandment against graven images, if you read the long form list of the Commandments in our Catechism.
“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.” CCC #2084.
37818
Well-Known Member
Maybe dozens, but not thousands. God has His truth of His Scriptures. The 27;New Testament documents stand.
Which of them teaches Truth?
That’s nice, but we need the truth on earth if scriptures are going to be any use to us. Scripture is infallible, it’s interpretation needs to also be infallible.
The New Testament documents stand misinterpreted by dozens of Bible alone human founded Protestant traditions of men.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
As you can see the RCC list comes from the CATHOLICS' RESOURCE NETWORK. Are they not a reliable source re RCC information?
UPLOADED BY MICHAEL G HAINS SYSOP CATHOLICS' RESOURCE NETWORK COMPUSERVE ID 76711,1340
Hebrew bible site here "Exodus 20 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre"
What I am comparing is the list from your RCC site and a Jewish bible site. Are you saying that Origen or Augustine altered the Hebrew bible? You are avoiding the problem you have in your RCC list. It does not agree with the Hebrew list does it. So again I to ask under what authority do the RCC decide to alter the Ten commandment list as found in the Hebrew scriptures? Also by your words the RCC added more commandments to those found in Exodus 20. I am sure you can read the text of a non RCC bible or even go to a Hebrew bible site like this one "https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9881/jewish/Chapter-20.htm" You are grasping at straws when you say they were not numbered. The OT text of your RCC bible is not even the same as the Hebrew bible.
By your own words you admit that the RCC as seen on their official web site has altered God's word. Is this the tradition that you speak of within the RCC? They have a tradition of altering the word of God at their whim.
But you still have not addressed the other question: where do you find biblical support for Mary worship, transubstantiation, prugatory, Papal infallibility or even Peter as the first pope?
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
God had an idea of His in the Bible
that He called, "the pillar and ground of the truth".
Maybe, we should all look into what He actually meant by that
and not a thousand other ideas.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I understand that you need someone to tell you what the bible says but I do not. God do not inspire a book of mystery that only the enlightened few could understand. Are there difficult passages yes but none that impact the ability to trust the gospel message as found in scripture.
It is because you have allowed other men to tell you what to think about the bible that you have many false ideas about the bible.
Yes, that’s the mind virus that Luther infected people with, symptoms included feverish proof texting, delirious thrashing against authority figures, and finally wandering changably from doctrine to doctrine.
God inspired an infallible book, that could only be fully unlocked by the infallible Apostolic interpretation.
Protestantism has allowed men other than the Apostles to interpret the scripture for them.
That’s right. The bible says that the Church is the “ pillar and ground of the truth “ .
It must be an infallible Church if it is the “ pillar and ground of the Truth “.
Now to find a Church that claims Infallibility. Whoops, there’s only one, all the others rejected the idea.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So you have fallen for the errant view that you are incapable of reading and understanding the text of the bible. That is so sad. Have you ever considered that your pope is wrong? He did say that blessings gay unions is ok, but the bible speaks against that sort of thing. But then you think the pope has to update God's word.
Actually you have half that right. It is the infallible word of God but even the Apostles did not have infallible interpretation, they were human after all and we are all fallen so not infallible. And we sure can not call any of your popes infallible now can we. Yet they seem to think they have the right to alter God's word.
What I do notice is that you say that Protestantism cannot interpret the scriptures but you allow your pope and priests not only to interpret the scriptures but to add to them and alter them at will. Can we say double standard.
I do not require some man to tell me what the scriptures say, are you admitting that you are incapable of reading and understanding the bible?
But you still have not addressed the other question: where do you find biblical support for Mary worship, transubstantiation, prugatory, Papal infallibility or even Peter as the first pope? Do you plan to do that any time soon.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Well all we have to do is look at your popes to see that the RCC is not an infallible church. So the RCC does not stand as "the pillar and ground of the truth"
We read the Bible, we just don’t privately interpret it.
The Apostles were infallible in their preaching. Jesus said “ He who listens to you, listens to me “. When the Apostles preached, people were listening to Jesus who is Truth Incarnate, Infallible.
Your understanding is wrong.
Protestantism interprets every wind of doctrine from the same Bible, it’s not a coherent monolithic belief system, it’s scattered, conflicting and divided.
If Martin Luther was right that all one needed was the Scripture alone, then everyone would interpret scripture the same as his interpretation and doctrines.
All Bible aloners would be Lutherans, they aren’t, Luther was wrong, his interpretation of Scripture was not guided by The Holy Spirit, and all Bible aloners that followed proved Luther wrong by interpreting scripture conflictedly to Him and also each other.
That conflicted mess of interpretations is manifestly not the work of The Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of Truth, which is Singular and One.
The Bible kills those who misinterpret it, when a man approaches it, he is walking on holy ground. Have greater respect for it, don’t subject it to the muddy boot prints of every fallible human opinion.
Catholics humble themselves before Holy writ, not wantonly and arrogantly subjecting it to our fallible opinions. There is only one ancient interpretation of Scripture handed down in truth from the Apostles.
I’ll get to it, but there are many other objections people are making.
That’s just your fallible opinion.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
If you read the bible then logically you interpret it as you read. You must decide what the words mean to you. Are you incapable of doing that because that is what you are indicating in your posts. Your words indicate that God does not want most people to know Him because the majority of Christians are not RCC.
Jesus closed His instructions to the seventy with a statement that they were His ambassadors. To reject them was to reject Him, and to refuse Him was to refuse God, the Father. This does not speak to them being infallible just as present day ambassadors speak for the country they represent, they are not infallible either. They are just men as the seventy were. So to quote you "Your understanding is wrong"
You might have a leg to stand on if your popes actually held to God's word but alas they did and do not. Your popes have altered the word of God have added to and removed the words of God. The RCC does not have the moral position to be judging those that do not hold to your view.
I know this may come as a shock to you but not all people require someone else to tell them what to think. Most Christians are capable of reading and understanding the text of the bible. You seem to think that the bible is written in some strange language or with hidden meanings. Only the enlightened ones can interpret it.
Actually the RCC has subjected the Holy writ wantonly and arrogantly to it's fallible opinions. The RCC are the ones that have abused the text of scripture to bring into the church false teachings such as Mary worship, transubstantiation, prugatory, Papal infallibility or even Peter as the first pope.
The muddy foot prints we see on the Holy word of God are those of the RCC which should show greater respect for it, and not subject it to the muddy RCC boot prints of a pope's fallible human opinion.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
No that is fact. Look at the false doctrines your popes have foisted on your church. For some reason many of those in the RCC have chosen to forgo the ability to think and make actual choices of eternal consequence. You are trusting some man to tell you what the bible means. Do you not think it would be better to trust in what the Holy Spirit says?
37818
Well-Known Member
Where there are more than one interpretation of a Scripture, only one given can be right.
Bible Scripture is here on earth. If there are two different interpretations. Only one can actually be right. Both can be wrong.
Romans 2:1, ". . . Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. . . ."
The Catholic Church has the day and date the crucifixion wrong for centuries.
A key verses, Mark 14:12, ". . . And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?". Was the day before.
They can be wrong in part or whole on essential or non essential doctrines interpreted from scripture.
Each private interpreter brings his fallibility with him, he can be wrong on any or everything with no guarantee of truth.
That is why Catholics have been prohibited from privately interpreting scripture for 2000 years.
There is only one Apostolic interpretation of Scripture handed down from the beginning preserved by The Holy Spirit.
37818
Well-Known Member
As a denial of the Holy Spirit in 1 John 2:27, ". . . But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. . . ."
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