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Disciples salvation?

A

awaken

Active Member
On the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples in a great demonstration of supernatural power (Acts 2:1-4). There was the sound of a violent wind, visible tongues of fire, speaking in tongues, and powerful evangelism which resulted in roughly 3000 people being saved that day (Acts 2:41) and many more being saved or healed after that (Acts 2:43).

However, there was an earlier event...... If you recall, before Pentecost Jesus told the disciples that in a few days they would be "baptized" with the Holy Spirit:

""For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. ... you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight." (Acts 1:5, 8-9)

Notice that immediately before Jesus ascended to heaven, He told the disciples that they will be baptized with the Holy Spirit in a few days. Now take a look at what Jesus said to the disciples on Resurrection Sunday (which was forty days earlier, according to Acts 1:3):

"On the evening of that first day of the week [Resurrection Sunday], when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit."" (John 20:19-22)

The disciples received the Holy Spirit on the day that Jesus was resurrected, which was almost a month and a half before they were filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost!

Why did the disciples have two separate experiences of the Holy Spirit like that?
 
A

awaken

Active Member
Prominent mainline scholars say that the disciples received the Holy Spirit on Resurrection Sunday as a partial filling in anticipation of their salvation at Pentecost, and that it was for the purpose of empowering them for their ministry (see for example The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.343). So the mainline view tends to be that the disciples were empowered on Resurrection Sunday and that they were saved at Pentecost.

Charismatic scholars tend to say just the opposite, that the disciples were saved on Resurrection Sunday and empowered at Pentecost.

Notice that both groups agree that somehow the disciples had two separate experiences of the Holy Spirit (first on Resurrection Sunday and then at Pentecost), and both groups agree that one of these was for spiritual empowerment and the other was when the disciples received salvation. Since the mainline and charismatic explanations are exactly opposite to one another... How simple is it to determine which view is more Scripturally accurate?
 
A

awaken

Active Member
Someone in another thread mentioned that he thought the disciples already had the indwellling HS before the day of Pentecost...

I see in the Bible Romans 10:9:
"if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)

While Jesus was alive, the disciples had confessed Him as Lord (John 13:13, for example). However, the disciples were not Christians at that point because they did not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ (since Jesus had not yet died).

On Resurrection Sunday, the day Christ rose from the dead, He came to the disciples in a locked room:

"On the evening of that first day of the week [Resurrection Sunday], when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."" (John 20:19-21)

At this point the disciples believed in the bodily resurrection of Christ, so they had received salvation (for the essential requirements of salvation).

Therefore, when the disciples received the Holy Spirit on Resurrection Sunday,Was this when they received salvation?
 
H

humblethinker

Active Member
awaken said:
On the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples in a great demonstration of supernatural power (Acts 2:1-4). There was the sound of a violent wind, visible tongues of fire, speaking in tongues, and powerful evangelism which resulted in roughly 3000 people being saved that day (Acts 2:41) and many more being saved or healed after that (Acts 2:43).

However, there was an earlier event...... If you recall, before Pentecost Jesus told the disciples that in a few days they would be "baptized" with the Holy Spirit:

""For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. ... you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight." (Acts 1:5, 8-9)

Notice that immediately before Jesus ascended to heaven, He told the disciples that they will be baptized with the Holy Spirit in a few days. Now take a look at what Jesus said to the disciples on Resurrection Sunday (which was forty days earlier, according to Acts 1:3):

"On the evening of that first day of the week [Resurrection Sunday], when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit."" (John 20:19-22)

The disciples received the Holy Spirit on the day that Jesus was resurrected, which was almost a month and a half before they were filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost!

Why did the disciples have two separate experiences of the Holy Spirit like that?
Click to expand...
Interesting...Imo, the disciples salvation didn't occur on either of these two days.
 
A

awaken

Active Member
The disciples received the Holy Spirit (John 20:22, below) immediately after they received salvation (John 20:19-21, above):

"And with that he [Jesus] breathed on them [the disciples] and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit."" (John 20:22)

I thought everyone receives the indwelling Holy Spirit at the time of their salvation? Here I see the disciples receiving the Holy Spirit immediately after they received salvation. There is nothing in this passage to indicate that the disciples only "partially" received the Holy Spirit.

Didn't Jesus impart the Holy Spirit to the disciples by breathing on them? Why did He do that? Jesus created everything that has been created (John 1:1-3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Colossians 1:16, and Hebrews 1:2), and after Jesus formed Adam from the dust of the ground He imparted spiritual life to Adam by breathing on him:

"Then the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life; and man became a living being." (Genesis 2:7, AMP)

When Jesus breathed into Adam's nostrils in Genesis 2:7, Adam immediately received spiritual life. Since Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into the disciples on Resurrection Sunday in a deliberate way as an exact parallel of Genesis 2:7, it is reasonable to conclude that the disciples immediately received spiritual life, just as Adam did.

Bible Knowledge Commentary says:
"Since the Fall, regeneration by the "inbreathing" of the Holy Spirit is essential in order for people to enjoy fellowship with God." (Old Testament edition, Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.30, emphasis added)
The disciples received a direct "inbreathing" of the Holy Spirit on the day that Jesus was resurrected, and this mainline commentary explains that the "inbreathing" of the Holy Spirit happens when we are regenerated (saved). So when the disciples received the Holy Spirit on Resurrection Sunday, it was at the time of their salvation. Right?
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Awaken,

The disciples received the Holy Spirit on the day that Jesus was resurrected, which was almost a month and a half before they were filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost!

Why did the disciples have two separate experiences of the Holy Spirit like that?
Click to expand...

At the time of the Apostles there is a transition . There were people who were saved....OT saints.....who the next day are NT saints:thumbs:
 
thomas15

thomas15

Well-Known Member
awaken said:
Prominent mainline scholars say that the disciples received the Holy Spirit on Resurrection Sunday as a partial filling in anticipation of their salvation at Pentecost, and that it was for the purpose of empowering them for their ministry (see for example The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.343). So the mainline view tends to be that the disciples were empowered on Resurrection Sunday and that they were saved at Pentecost.
Click to expand...

Not to pick nits but just exactly how does one place the proper nouns "Walvoord" and "Zuck" in the same sentence with adj. "mainline" scholars?
 
thomas15

thomas15

Well-Known Member
awaken said:
Someone in another thread mentioned that he thought the disciples already had the indwellling HS before the day of Pentecost...
Click to expand...

I really don't know exactly where you think you are going with this but I would contend that there are those certain individuals from the time of Adam to present who were both saved and filled with the Holy Spirit. See Luke 2:25... for just one of many examples.
 
A

awaken

Active Member
Iconoclast said:
Awaken,



At the time of the Apostles there is a transition . There were people who were saved....OT saints.....who the next day are NT saints:thumbs:
Click to expand...
So what is the difference in how they are saved? We are all saved by faith in Jesus, right?
 
A

awaken

Active Member
thomas15 said:
I really don't know exactly where you think you are going with this but I would contend that there are those certain individuals from the time of Adam to present who were both saved and filled with the Holy Spirit. See Luke 2:25... for just one of many examples.
Click to expand...

I am just trying to understand the scriptures. I thought the OT saints were not indwelled with the HS?
 
A

awaken

Active Member
also...Immediately after breathing the Holy Spirit into the disciples on Resurrection Sunday, Jesus said:

"If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (John 20:23)

Since the disciples now had the authority to declare other people's sins as being forgiven, it is reasonable that their own sins were now forgiven. It would not seem reasonable for the disciples to be able to "forgive anyone his sins" if they had to wait until Pentecost for their own sins to be forgiven!

Jesus' statement makes perfect sense if the disciples were saved on Resurrection Sunday.
 
A

awaken

Active Member
Something else to consider...
A week after Resurrection Sunday, Jesus again came and stood with the disciples in a locked room, and this time Thomas (the doubter) was present. Jesus said that Thomas was now a believer because he saw the proof that Jesus was resurrected. Jesus further stated that those who believe in Him without actually seeing Him will be blessed with salvation as well:

"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."" (John 20:26-29)

Notice that the focus in this passage is on salvation, not spiritual empowerment.
 
P

psalms109:31

Active Member
Those before the cross was credited His righteousness , they believed God. The Holy Spirit did not have a permanent dwelling until after Pentecost after that when Jesus is Glorified He poured the Holy Spirit on the earth. It wasn't permanent before because David said do not take the Holy Spirit from me. The Holy Spirit can fill a donkey ,a burning bush, a worm but it doesn't mean they are saved.
 
A

awaken

Active Member
psalms109:31 said:
Those before the cross was credited His righteousness , they believed God. The Holy Spirit did not have a permanent dwelling until after Pentecost after that when Jesus is Glorified He poured the Holy Spirit on the earth. It wasn't permanent before because David said do not take the Holy Spirit from me. The Holy Spirit can fill a donkey ,a burning bush, a worm but it doesn't mean they are saved.
Click to expand...
I understand this! Can you explain what happen in John 19:19-23?
 
A

awaken

Active Member
psalms109:31 said:
Do you believe it was permanent then or at Pentecost?
Click to expand...
I was taught it was not permanent until Pentecost. But I can not reconcile this scripture. What did they receive?

As I have shown in earlier post they received something...and it looks like the indwelling HS. What is required for one to receive salvation? Jesus at this point had alread been born, lived a sinless life, died on the cross and rose again. Isn't that what we believe in order to receive salvation?

Also...

Immediately after the passage I mentioned four post back.. in which Thomas became a believer, the apostle John said that by believing in Jesus we will have salvation and eternal life:

"Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life [eternal life] in his name." (John 20:30-31)

Again, the focus in this passage is on salvation, not spiritual empowerment.

This whole section of Scripture surrounding Resurrection Sunday (John 20:19-31) has dwelt on salvation. All of the evidence shows that when the disciples received the Holy Spirit on Resurrection Sunday, it was at the time of their salvation.

Am I seeing this wrong?
 
P

psalms109:31

Active Member
It seems confusing but it isn't Jesus had to go to the Father seated in Glory to pour the Holy Spirit on the earth to all believers making us one.
 
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