Discussion of Predestination

God is both righteous and merciful. His righteousness requires that he punish sin. His mercy compels him to forgive. It is God's justice that forces mercy to be considered. In order to satisfy both his righteousness and his mercy he elected some to salvation and others to perdition. Jesus is the means by which those whom are guilty of sin maybe forgiven for their sin and at the same time through his work on the cross and subsequent resurrection he is also the risen savior who will come back in judgment of those who have not received and believed the gospel. He is on both accounts a means by which God exercises his righteous judgment and extends his loving arm of mercy.

 

As to your first response.

"You can't be serious! Can a dead man respond to the Gospel?"

All of my Reformed buddies and I just had a real laugh. That is exactly the point we are trying to make to you. The funny thing is that what we are talking about is the spiritually dead. It is obvious from your reply that you thought I was talking about a physically dead person. But just so you will know, I believe that Jesus can and did reach even a physically dead person, Lazarus. Your reaction is telling. In the same way you respond with shock at the notion that Jesus reaches the decomposing corpse of a dead person with the gospel, I would argue that it is equally impossible for a spiritually dead soul to respond to the gospel apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. But in the same way he reached Lazarus who was previously dead, God would need to make alive again the spirit of man in order that he may understand the things of the Holy Spirit. READ my comments on 1 Cor. 2 below.

You say a question asking how the work of the Holy Spirit differs from the work of Christ is too broad. I say that is another way of saying I have not a clue.

The work of Christ individually is primarily in the area of atonement. The work of the Holy Spirit is primarily in drawing men to the atonement or revealing the truth of the atonement. You could have said we pray to the Father by the Son through the Holy Spirit. You could have said that Jesus is the Word and that he reveals the truth of God and the Holy Spirit brings illumination of the truth. This question was more of test to see where you are in your level of understanding. To say the question is too broad does nothing more than show your contempt for having been asked something that you were not able to discuss on a level that would be seen as credible.

Moreover, you do not want to interact substantively with 1 Cor. 2. Why? Because you claim it is taken out of context, which I as a theologian should have been more clever to recognize. OH MY.

Vs. 6
Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.

Contrasts human wisdom from wisdom from above.

vs. 7
But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.

Since this wisdom is secret and hidden wisdom and from God only God can reveal this wisdom. It is not wisdom that intellectual ascent can obtain.
So I ask you then, who can you obtain this wisdom apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, since it is secret and hidden?

vs. 8
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

In ignorance the rulers of this age put to death God in human form.

vs. 9
But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

This verse clearly states that no one has comprehended nor can man of his own imagine what God has prepared for those who love him. Now, if we cannot understand or comprehend on our own the things of God, how then can you claim that someone can receive the gospel apart from the work of the Holy Spirit?

vs. 10
these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.

BINGO! Camp out here and stay a while.

vs. 11
For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

You cannot comprehend the thoughts of God except through the work of the Holy Spirit and that certainly would apply to comprehending the gospel.

vs. 12
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

Why did they receive the Spirit? That they might understand the things freely given us by God. The gospel is the free gift of God. When making reference to the things freely given this is a clear reference to the gospel. Therefore, you receive the illumination of the Spirit or regeneration in order that you may receive the free gift of God, ie the gospel.

vs. 13
And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

Paul is a missionary proclaiming the gospel to the lost, yet he clearly states that he imparts this in words not taught by human wisdom. He is recognizing that he is not behind the power of the gospel nor is the intellectual curiosity of those who want to receive the gospel. Instead, he teaches and they are taught by the Spirit.

vs. 14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural person is not a reference to a believe but to a non-believer. Why? Because Paul goes not to say that the natural person is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned and a natural person is without the Holy Spirit.

vs. 15
The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.

The person with God's Spirit is able to utilize the wisdom of the Spirit without being the ultimate arbiter of truth, that is the role of the Spirit.


vs. 16
“For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

We are in no position to judge the merit of revealed truth, we are simply given the benefit of that knowledge and the privilege of having access to the mind of Christ.

 

Please refute my interpretation of 1 Cor. 2. I am obviously in error, show me. But if you come into this thread be prepared to do more than offer criticism, offer responses to the criticisms of your position.

So I guess according to your view someone can get saved apart from God, since you seem to minimize the role of the Holy Spirit. Where do we get power according to Act 1:8 except through the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is God. You need God in order to be saved. Apart from the role of Holy Spirit you will never come to an understanding of your need to be saved much less how to be saved.

Questions you need to ask yourself is does the Holy Spirit draw the elect on the basis of Christ's work or not? Can there be such a thing as a Holy Spiritless effectual call?

 

I am glad this is not a Blammoless discussion after all.

There is evidently a need to constantly state in these discussions that God does not violate the free moral agency of man in order to accomplish his desired will.

Blammo, can we at least recognize that due to God's infinite wisdom that he would be perfectly able to orchestrate the events of creation in order to allow for both free moral agency and moral evil all the while with in the parameters of his perfect will? Yet, even so he has a causal relationship to the events because he is the orchestrator.

 

I believe in double predestination, it does not get any more Reformed than that. I do not prefer the term Calvinist however I am comfortable in that group. I prefer to be called a Biblical Christian... lol. Everybody thinks that the Bible is on their side until I turn around and smack them upside the head with their Bible.

I digress. I do not want to keep rehashing old stuff but let me offer you a series of analogies in order to establish the nature of the terms. Right now if I say predestination you hear God is the author of sin, which he is not. So in order for me to say predestination and for you to understand what I mean let me offer the following:

God sets in place a system or means through which he will judge the moral nature of individuals. Their own freewill is a factor in the process. But God is not dependent on man to determine his own fate.

1)The Maze
If I were to set up a maze and put a rat in the maze. I would not have any control directly over the rat and he would not be like a remote control car, and yet I could put in place stimuli that would give the rat impetus to negotiate the maze in whatever way I deemed appropriate. If I put food in the maze the scent of the food could lead him, or I could put negative feedback like electric shock to direct him. Regardless if I wanted to setup a maze I could set it up in such a way that the rat would negotiate to the exact point I desired. There would not be any violation of the rats ability to make decisions. He just would have the necessary eliminates in place to lead him to the eventual end.

2)Bug Zapper
Now if I were to put a bug zapper outside my window, I can know that there will be some bugs that get zapped and others that do not get zapped for whatever reason. If I were to have foreknowledge of the individual bugs and their names and I decided to go ahead and put the bug zapper outside my window, one could conclude that I knew who and who would not get zapped and did so with that knowledge. The names of those who get zapped are the elect and the names of those who do not get zapped are the reprobate. It was my decision to put the zapper outside the window and therefore I determined that I would allow for the elect to be numbered and the reprobate to be numbered according to what I foreknew. Yet what determined the fate of the bugs could be viewed much differently. Some bugs were more prone to being drawn to the zapper and others were not. Some bugs never got within a close enough range to even be drawn. In order to be drawn to the zapper you had to be in range [hear the gospel] and you had to feel compelled to respond to the light.

3) Brushfire
Let's suppose that the creation of the world is similar to burning brush. The fire that results from God attempting to burn off brush results in what some view as a controlled burn, while others view the burn as resulting in catastrophic loss of wildlife. In truth if you do not burn off brush every so often the undergrowth with build up to a level that if it does catch fire it will compound on a multiple level the devastation of a wild fire. So since God knows the future and set fire to the brush, can we say that resulting loss was factored into God's thinking? But one other factor should be considered, all of the wildlife's training and survival instincts have been provided by God, so that everything thing known about fire was provided by God, ie the knowledge of good and evil in the garden. God set the fire and yet God also gave the wildlife the means by which to survive forest fires. So how can we now view the loss of life due to the controlled burn that God determine to bring into existence?

From my point of view because God is sovereign therefore any and all perceived loss can be recovered and any loss that is not recovered is predetermined to be an acceptable loss or else God would not be perfect because the controlled burn would have in that case lost containment and resulted in an out of control burn which would have incurred unacceptable or undesired loss.

Now one of two things is true in this analogy: either it is a controlled burn or it is an out of control run away inferno! Which is it?

4)Driver's License
I offered the analogy of the state issuing drivers licenses. They issue the license but are not liable for damage done while violators are guilty of DWI. Neither is God liable for damage done due to sin, hence, the phrase "free moral agency."

Now the question is not if man is a moral being. The question regards the extent or power that man has to make choices. It is not a matter of whether man makes a choice of his own freewill. It is a matter of what is man's will free to chose?

 

Do I sense false praise in them there words?

 

Keep in mind my analogies are like all analogies, flawed on many levels. This analogy was not given to illustrate the fate of anyone in particular as much as it illustrates the means by which God can influence the process without violating the free moral agency of man.

This is where you must determine to be consistant with what is revealed in Scripture or to go with an emotive response that judges God on the merit of human reason. Consider the following Scriptures and tell me how you would respond to your concerns in light of what these passages say?

Prov. 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Rev. 17:17 for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

Rom. 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.

John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
[Why could they not believe?]
40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”

Duet. 2:30 But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that he might give him into your hand, as he is this day.

Josh. 11:20 For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses.