Discussion with regards to Church history

[JohnDeereFan]

When you actually study what it is the Catholics believe then I think the paradigm of the conversation changes and apples will equal apples.

Actually, I've cited the CCC, the Council of Trent, Karl Keating, the Catholic Encyclopedia, and a Catholic priest speaking in a Catholic church and quoted on a Catholic message board.

But I guess, according to you, none of these people know what the Catholic Church teaches as well as you do. Maybe you'll be the next pope. You've certainly got the arrogance for it.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Note I don't believe in the Rapture

Gee, there's a shock.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Actually, I've cited the CCC, the Council of Trent, Karl Keating, the Catholic Encyclopedia, and a Catholic priest speaking in a Catholic church and quoted on a Catholic message board.

But I guess, according to you, none of these people know what the Catholic Church teaches as well as you do. Maybe you'll be the next pope. You've certainly got the arrogance for it.

I suggest you read them again and pay attention to what they are saying. I've quoted directly from their magisterium so there you have it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Gee, there's a shock.

And where in the bible does it say I have to believe in the rapture? And where is the word rapture in the bible? And what makes you think your eschatology is better than mine? Talk about arrogance!

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I suggest you read them again and pay attention to what they are saying. I've quoted directly from their magisterium so there you have it.

WOW! I can just see the arrogance and ego rising off of you like waves off a blacktop highway on a hot day.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

And where in the bible does it say I have to believe in the rapture?

It doesn't. There are a lot of things the Bible teaches that you don't have to believe in. But if you're going to claim to be a Christian, then why wouldn't you believe what the Bible teaches?

And where is the word rapture in the bible?

Ah, so then, by that logic, you must not believe in the Trinity, either.

Funny, I don't see the word "Purgatory" anywhere in the Bible and yet, there you are, defending the Catholic heresy of Purgatory.

And what makes you think your eschatology is better than mine?

Because you've gone on record defending heresy.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I think it wrongly focuses eschatology on the future and causes statements like "well this is just another sign that end is near and I won't be here much longer" also funny episodes of young students jumping up and down doing "rapture checks" and jokes like "when I get caught up I'm going to grab the guy on my left and on my right and about half way Up I'll tell them to repent or I'll let go!"

funny and sad at the same time, but true story...my mom and dad rented a condo down in alabama a few years back. my dad woke up one morning before my mother and left the condo to go shopping for new shoes...my mother woke up and seeing that my dad wasn't there and no note, she panicked and called me on the phone...she actually thought the "rapture" had taken place and she was left behind...

In XC
-

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It doesn't. There are a lot of things the Bible teaches that you don't have to believe in. But if you're going to claim to be a Christian, then why wouldn't you believe what the Bible teaches?



Ah, so then, by that logic, you must not believe in the Trinity, either.

Funny, I don't see the word "Purgatory" anywhere in the Bible and yet, there you are, defending the Catholic heresy of Purgatory.



Because you've gone on record defending heresy.

You're being silly. What heresy have I defended? BTW that's a poor response to the questions I asked you. Do you not know?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It doesn't. There are a lot of things the Bible teaches that you don't have to believe in. But if you're going to claim to be a Christian, then why wouldn't you believe what the Bible teaches?



Ah, so then, by that logic, you must not believe in the Trinity, either.

Funny, I don't see the word "Purgatory" anywhere in the Bible and yet, there you are, defending the Catholic heresy of Purgatory.



Because you've gone on record defending heresy.

BTW I do believe what the bible teaches and it doesn't teach the rapture but a single return of christ. amen. And I didn't defend purgatory I cleared up what was believed about purgatory exceptional difference. However, since you like self defining things You probably won't let that go either. I can show you many incidents of saying I don't believe in purgatory and why. So again you are wrong.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

What heresy have I defended?

If you've forgotten about your posts in the Purgatory thread already, maybe you should see a doctor.

BTW that's a poor response to the questions I asked you. Do you not know?

Actually, I answered all three of your questions. Did I use too many grown up words for you?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If you've forgotten about your posts in the Purgatory thread already, maybe you should see a doctor.



Actually, I answered all three of your questions. Did I use too many grown up words for you?

I won't go tit for tat with you. I was explaining what was actually believed about purgatory. Didn't you read my statements where I said I didn't believe in it and why? See what you do with the Catholics you are doing with me. Shame.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Gee, there's a shock.

With the goofy Rapture theology, the only thing that's "left behind" is the Bible. Jesus is only coming back once and there will be a general resurrection and judgment. The Rapture wasn't even really invented until John Nelson Darby came along in the 19th century.

 

[Matt Black]

And Darby only got it from the 'visions' of a poor mad Scottish girl, Margaret MacDonald. Oh, and the Irvingites, who were a bit nutty also. Not a great recommendation for the 'doctrine'.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

With the goofy Rapture theology, the only thing that's "left behind" is the Bible. Jesus is only coming back once and there will be a general resurrection and judgment. The Rapture wasn't even really invented until John Nelson Darby came along in the 19th century.

Yep! :thumbs:

 

[billwald]

>Which Ecumenical Councils, out of interest, do people here subscribe to?

The Christian Reformed Church officially recognizes the Apostle's Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed as representing historic Christianity.

The nice thing about creeds is that the every local church doesn't have to reinvent the wheel. I have read many statements of faith that would not meet the test of time. "We only believe the Bible' and "We don't believe in creeds" are creedal statements.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I won't go tit for tat with you. I was explaining what was actually believed about purgatory.

I see. So then, the CCC, the Council of Trent, the Catholic Encyclopedia, Karl Keating, and the Catholic priest I quoted all had it wrong, but you're the one to turn to to learn what Catholicism teaches?

Let me ask you this: if I want to know what the SBC's up to, should I read the BF&M or ask you? Which one do you think is a better authority?

See what you do with the Catholics you are doing with me. Shame.

Why is it a "shame" to quote the Catholic Church's statements of belief?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I see. So then, the CCC, the Council of Trent, the Catholic Encyclopedia, Karl Keating, and the Catholic priest I quoted all had it wrong, but you're the one to turn to to learn what Catholicism teaches?

Let me ask you this: if I want to know what the SBC's up to, should I read the BF&M or ask you? Which one do you think is a better authority?



Why is it a "shame" to quote the Catholic Church's statements of belief?

Try this so you can get it right. Take what I've said to each of the sources you mentioned ask them if what you believe they said to be correct or what I said to be correct and then you can get back with me on it. How about this Ask Lori4dogs if what I said with regard to the magisterium is correct or is it not correct and how it compares with your analysis and see what she says. Trent is clarified in the CCC. I've quoted the CCC which is clear defines what Trent was speaking about. I've read Keating as well I doubt he would agree with you. And note you can ask two different priest the same question and get two different answers however I challenge you to speak with this priest you mention and have him look at my post and see what he says. That way you can be sure of the conclusion.
As far as the Southern Baptist Convention goes they pretty explicitly explain in common language what they believe in their Baptist faith and Message points. However, there is diversity over other things between the different churches. However, I think there are enough SBC members here that out qualify me on the Convention. And its a shame that your claiming something about what I've done or said that isn't true. Not quoting the CCC. But I noticed you didn't quote the passages I did for the very reason that you do not want to countenance the fact that they do not believe what you claim they do even though their writing suggest it. BTW you might not know this but many Catholics feel that the Vatican II supersedes the Council of Trent.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Try this so you can get it right. Take what I've said to each of the sources you mentioned ask them if what you believe they said to be correct or what I said to be correct and then you can get back with me on it.

It isn't about what I say they believe. It's about what the Catholic sources I quoted verbatem say they believe.

How about this Ask Lori4dogs if what I said with regard to the magisterium is correct or is it not correct and how it compares with your analysis and see what she says.

First of all, it has nothing to do with "my analysis". I quoted not one, not two, not three, not four, but FIVE Catholic authorities ALL stating that PURGATORY IS FOR SINNERS TO EXPIATE THEIR OWN SINS.

I've read Keating as well I doubt he would agree with you.

Actually, I quoted Keating's own words. You really don't think Keating would agree with himself?

And note you can ask two different priest the same question and get two different answers however I challenge you to speak with this priest you mention and have him look at my post and see what he says.

Actually, I didn't merely "mention" him. I quoted the text of his homily, in which he explains that the purpose of Purgatory is for sinners to expiate their own sins.

That way you can be sure of the conclusion.

Are you saying that the Catholic website that posted the text of his homily cannot be trusted?

As far as the Southern Baptist Convention goes they pretty explicitly explain in common language what they believe in their Baptist faith and Message points. However, there is diversity over other things between the different churches. However, I think there are enough SBC members here that out qualify me on the Convention.

That wasn't my question. Again: who is more qualified to speak on the beliefs of the SBC: the BF&M or you?

You still fail to mention to expiate their sins is speaking about the second consequence of sin as I've shown you from their sources. BTW you didn't show your source on Keating you only keep quoting trent and the CCC where it leaves off this specific detail.

Not one of the five sources I listed makes this distinction.

The Convention is more qualified to speak about what it holds to believe.

OK. So why doesn't that apply to the Catholic Church? Why do you feel that you're more qualified to declare what the Catholic Church teaches than the Catholic church, but not the SBC?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It isn't about what I say they believe. It's about what the Catholic sources I quoted verbatem say they believe.



First of all, it has nothing to do with "my analysis". I quoted not one, not two, not three, not four, but FIVE Catholic authorities ALL stating that PURGATORY IS FOR SINNERS TO EXPIATE THEIR OWN SINS.



Actually, I quoted Keating's own words. You really don't think Keating would agree with himself?



Actually, I didn't merely "mention" him. I quoted the text of his homily, in which he explains that the purpose of Purgatory is for sinners to expiate their own sins.



Are you saying that the Catholic website that posted the text of his homily cannot be trusted?



That wasn't my question. Again: who is more qualified to speak on the beliefs of the SBC: the BF&M or you?

You still fail to mention to expiate their sins is speaking about the second consequence of sin as I've shown you from their sources. BTW you didn't show your source on Keating you only keep quoting trent and the CCC where it leaves off this specific detail.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

That wasn't my question. Again: who is more qualified to speak on the beliefs of the SBC: the BF&M or you?

The Convention is more qualified to speak about what it holds to believe. But that wasn't the debate as well. We are talking About the Catholic Church we both have quoted their sources My contention is you purposely ignore one aspect of what they are saying. period.