I may have been guilty of sidetracking the thread. Not intentional.
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Dispensational help with with Acts 2:38
- Thread starter JD731
- Start date
You kiddeth, right, Van? Israel is a family of which Judah was a tribe in the family. The term Jew referenced someone from that tribe and was a generic term for a family member. I am surprised you don't know this. Peter addressed, Ye men of Israel. The northern ten tribes were dispersed out of their land by the Assyrians in 722 BC. Judah was dispersed by the Babylonians in 588 BC but later were allowed by Cyrus of Persia to return and to rebuild their city, Jerusalem, and their temple. Some did return, but not all. Over time they found themselves in many countries and in the NT era Peter, James, Jude, and John, and whoever wrote the epistle to the Hebrews, wrote to the "strangers" that were scattered abroad. A stranger is someone who is in the country of someone else and not their own.
Many of this family maintained their religious heritage in lands they lived in and built synagogues and observed the law of Moses. The Law of Moses commanded all males who were 20 years and older to come to Jerusalem for the feasts of Israel for the 3 festivals annually. That is why they were there. They were observing the Feasts of Weeks, known as Pentecost.
This might help.
So, what you are telling me is that you identify with the baptism of the gentiles in Acts 10, which was performed by the Apostle Peter after receiving the Holy Spirit by faith, rather than the baptism of the Jews in Acts 10, which was performed by the apostles, including Peter, before receiving the Holy Ghost and which was a pre-condition for each of them to receive him? That is what I am concluding from your comments.
Except Matthew 28:19 does not say that and you are smart enough to know it. You are transposing your own ideas upon the text, and by doing it you are ensuring that you will never have the right doctrine concerning baptism. One must believe the words they read. There is not liberty to change them, even in your mind.
What does Matt 28:19 say?
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them (the apostles and prophets that had been chosen to minister with him and now about him)), saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world (age = aion). Amen.
There is nothing here about miracles and confirming sign gifts because it is not a commission for them to preach to the Jews as Mark's recollection of his commission in chapter 16 of his gospel where baptism was definitely a pre-condition. Let me give you two verses to ponder.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe;
Why was this?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
Here is another passage you should consider;
Acts 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this?
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Do words mean anything to you guys?
Look at Matthew 28 again. This is the apostolic commission to the nations and it is somewhat different. It is not a baptism in the name of Jesus as it was to Israel and it was without confirming signs to gentiles. The commission was to the nations and they were to be taught about the saving power of Jesus Christ and they were to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, the trinitarian God, and anyone who rejects this God has not been taught of God. Jesus was the member of the Godhead they had rejected. They must repent of that. How? By identifying with his death burial and resurrection, a physical representation of his death and burial and resurrection and they must call upon his name in order to receive his Spirit, who is life.
After 70 AD Jews were dispersed into the gentile nations and this is the manner of the baptism of the church of Jesus Christ going forward, Jew and gentile converts.
Ponder these things. It will help you.
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It is very misleading of you to try make the Day of Pentecost an 'incoming of the Gentiles' event, this is strictly the 'Jewish fold' that is being addressed. Christ didn't begin bringing in His 'other sheep' until Acts 10 (John 10:16). Just as Christ had foretold the apostles would be His mouthpieces, this is 'the Comforter' convicting the world....
20 Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18
....of the murder of Christ through the mouth of His witness, the apostle Peter:
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Acts 2
Thought I had a virus, pans out I have mouse problems, got another one on the way from Amazon.
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Once again a completely false claim is allowed to go unchecked. Did I say "The Day of Pentecost as incoming of the Gentiles event?" Nope
It is non-stolp folks, and nothing will be done!
Here is an important question for you, Van. Which water baptism do you associate yourself with, the one Peter proposed to Israel in Acts 2 as a pre-condition for receiving the Holy Ghost, or do you identify yourself with the water baptism in Acts 10 when the gentiles were commanded by the same Peter to be baptized in water after they had received the Holy Ghost by simply believing the gospel of Jesus Christ?
I hope you will answer this today because I would like to use it for a Bible lesson I am preparing. I would like to have an answer to this question by anyone.
As for me, Van, I identify with the baptism in Acts 10 where baptism in water has absolutely nothing to do with an unsaved man when the definition of an unsaved man is one who does not have the Spirit of Christ indwelling him.
Proof:
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:9-11 was written 18 years after the events of Acts 10 and after many Jewish and gentiles souls had been converted to Jesus Christ, and had been baptized in water.
Thanks for asking an actual bible study question.
Act 2:38 (NASB)
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Since no person is sealed in Christ unless they have been spiritually baptized into Christ, Acts 2:38 is referring to our spiritual baptism.
Having answered your question with clarity, let me address one other point you seemed to make:
"to be baptized in water after they had received the Holy Ghost by simply believing the gospel of Jesus Christ?"
Again, no one receives the Holy Spirit by simply believing the gospel. Unless God credits a person's faith as righteousness, their believe does not result in "gaining approval." They end up as the second and third soils of Matthew 13.
This is a non-answer, Van. It does show that your confidence in the historical record written by Luke is non existent. You are making up stuff like a spiritual baptism of people who Peter has just got though accusing of killing their own Messiah and King, Jesus Christ, whom God has raised from the dead and taken to heaven, and whom he will soon send back to restore God's rule on the earth and to destroy all those Israelites who will not obey him through the voices of his apostles and prophets.That is what the text says in Acts 3 and it is what you deny by your fanciful interpretation.
In 70 AD this Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans and the temple did not have one stone left on another as the Romans fished for gold while they killed over a million souls and the Jews were cast out of their own land, and without a land they were still a people but the nation was reckoned physically dead by God. Thank God he has promised that he will resurrect it one day and put his Spirit in them, but now he is fulfilling his purpose of forming his church, the bride for his Son, through the gentiles because of the Jews unbelief. Read it here;
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest (of Israel) were blinded.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
The election he is speaking of is the elect according to the context,.It is the Jewish remnant, small in number compared to the whole, who believed in Christ, and who were saved because of it.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them (Israel) the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their (Israel's) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
This question should be answered by folks like you.
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them (Israel) be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Life from the dead is a resurrection every time it happens, and in this case it is the resurrection of national Israel, all of them. It is a promise. It is a prophesy for the future, but not while God is dealing with the remnant and the gentiles who are grafted in to the root of the olive tree to accomplish the purpose of this age. Israel had their chance but they failed but that does not mean that God lied to them in the OT concerning their unconditional covenants he made with them concerning the land and the throne. They are not happening now but they are still in effect and will happen in the next age.
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
I will remind you that God intended that Israel obey the voice of his apostles in Acts 2 because Paul, the apostle to gentiles, was not converted until at the end of Acts 7 when the rulers of Israel officially rejected the Christian faith and killed it"s messenger. The things that Paul revealed after his conversion were a series of mysteries that had been hidden in OT figures and would have never been revealed had Israel repented and believed the gospel of Christ.
The door of faith for gentile entrance is not opened by God and Peter until after the Jews rejected Jesus Christ. Remember what the purpose of this age is. it is to form his church and his bride from the body of the second man, Jesus Christ and then to present her to him as his wife. God is not foiled in his purpose, but his alt plan if Israel failed, was to replace them with gentile converts, but this was nowhere reveled and was the subject of special revelation. Read these few verses that explains this better than I can;
My only comment of these verses is WOW!
Eph 3: For this cause (is the formation of the church) I Paul, the prisoner (in Rome in 60 AD) of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Here is the single verse explanation of the mystery. The mystery is not the church itself. Adam and Eve prefigures the son of God and his wife, taken from his body, but the mystery is that gentiles will be included in making up the body.
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, (the Jews and gentiles in it) which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose (the church of Jesus Christ was not a secondary thought of God) which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Do you see how the epistles must explain the history, that took place in real time, and give God's thoughts on it? You simple must allow there be an Israel that does not include you in the initial proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ. To do otherwise is to need to ignore plain words and to invent fanciful doctrines like you and others have done.
I have another point to make from your comments in my next post
First of all Van, it is incorrect to make your following quote;
This is so far removed from the truth that it takes only one verse in my inspired bible to refute it while hoping you will reconsider making such outlandish claims.
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
To be in complete opposition to what scripture states should trouble you. I hope it does and you can adjust your thinking.
There are two principles at work during the apostolic era pertaining to, first the Jews salvation, and then to gentiles salvation, and both are in Ga 3:14. On a side note I find this amazing that both are in Ga 3:14, of all places. Three is the number for the Godhead and 14 is God's number for salvation. WOW.
Okay, back to my point.
Peter and the apostles preached to the Jews and Israel and quoted all kinds of OT statements filled with promises of this very time when God will send his salvation into the hearts of his people Israel. Among all other things he is doing for his people, the most important is that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the promise that he would be the eternal and final sacrifice through which they will receive his Spirit and be saved. So,salvation is of the Jews just like Jesus said in John 4. Why? Because the promise of salvation to the world was not a promise to the world but it was a promise to Abraham concerning his seed. God said, "in thy seed, meaning Jesus Christ, shall all the families of the world be blessed. Therefore, salvation to gentiles is not a promise to them but it is a matter of the grace of God who made gentiles a "partaker" with the physical seed of Abraham, of their promise of salvation, a salvation that all must have before entering into the kingdom of God.
When you understand that Ephesians, with it's mysteries revealed, explains this , then it will be easy to see the difference in the pronoun usage. I will give you an example and see if you can see it.
Eph 1::1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
When Paul is using pronouns like us and ours and we, etc, in this letter he is generally speaking of the Jews, of which he is one. When he says you, or ye or yourselves, he is speaking of gentiles. When he uses the word together or both, then he is speaking of being together in the body of Christ. It would be foolish to use the word together if there were not more than one. See here how the word is used.
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Now, if Paul was saved by the same principle as the gentiles, he would have said by grace are we saved, Salvation is the same but the principle of getting there is different for the two groups at the time and for the purpose of sound doctrine.
Look at the next example;
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Concerning why Jesus came to Israel in the world, we are told this.
Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
How many of those promises concerned the gentiles? None. Look here.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time
ye were without Christ, being
aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and
strangers from the covenants of promise,
having no hope, and
without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
If you were guessing, when would you guess time past was? The Bible answer is time past was all time before Acts 10, as it relates to the salvation of the gentiles.
So, Acts 2:38 relates to the baptism of Israel and involves God keeping promises to Israel and the baptism of gentiles in Acts 10 is after they have received the grace of God to a world that deserves nothing but judgement for their sins. This has a WOW factor of hundreds of thousands, Van.
To repeat the answer:
Since no person is sealed in Christ unless they have been spiritually baptized into Christ, Acts 2:38 is referring to our spiritual baptism.
The charge I doubt the historical record written by Luke is another slanderous falsehood.
Your defense of your bogus views is nonsense buried in an abundance of verbiage.
Absolutely nothing in Acts chapter 3 suggests Jesus does not baptize with the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:16).
Acts 3:18-19
“But the things which God previously announced by the mouths of all the prophets, that His [fn]Christ would suffer, He has fulfilled in this way. “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
“But the things which God previously announced by the mouths of all the prophets, that His [fn]Christ would suffer, He has fulfilled in this way. “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
JD731 said:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but individuals "receive the Holy Spirit" when they are sealed in Christ. And individuals are sealed in Christ after God spiritually baptizes them (immerses them) into Christ spiritually. And after they undergo the washing of regeneration (being made alive together with Christ) they are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.
Your bogus claim is the false doctrine of "automatic" salvation when you in your own opinion put your faith in Christ. Thus you ignore Romans 4:4-5, and Romans 4:23-25.
Van, If Jesus baptized with the Holy Ghost in Acts 2:38, it means you are defining baptism as the Spirit being in the one who receives him. Is that how you want us to think about baptism? So, when John the baptist baptized in water he was putting water into the person he was baptizing in your theological view? No, baptism is the act of putting the person in the water. Is there a baptism going on in Acts 2? According to the text there is. What kind of baptism is it. It is a baptism in water in the 38th verse of the chapter and it was commanded of every one of them. That means they must submit themselves to the baptism. It is the apostles who were charged with baptizing the converts of Israel. It was not Jesus Christ who baptized them in water. He had already returned to heaven, according to the historian who wrote this book.
Now, here is the charge given to the apostles concerning baptism in water. It cannot be denied. It was given after the resurrection of Jesus Christ and as he was ascending back to heaven. Read it for yourself.
Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
You may not understand this commission to the eleven, but they sure did, and their activity in the first few years laboring under the new covenant after this commission proves it.
Let's evaluate verse 16, which says, 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
Now, let's look at Acts 2:38, which is 10 days after the ascension of Jesus Christ.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I am going to draw a wild conclusion here. The creature spoken of by Mark is an Israelite. I know that because the same historian writes about the rest of the world being baptized with the Holy Ghost 10 years later and they were not required to be baptized in water before they personally received him for salvation.
You can read this for yourself. Here.
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Poured out!
Later, Peter would say this same baptism that was prophesied by John was also for the gentiles, albeit not at the same time. I am not making this up. He says it here.
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us (Israel) at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them (gentiles) the like gift (The gift is the Spirit, who is life) as he did unto us (Israel), who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
The word "also" is key in the last sentence I quoted. It means "in addition to."
The fact that the Spirit was "poured" out, first on Israel, and on the gentiles, and that he was not "sprinkled" out, tells us that the Spirit is here is such abundance that all may drink him in and be saved, The Jews first, and also the gentile. What it does not mean is, just because he is poured out all will be saved because that is not true. It does mean all "may be" saved but there were conditions for Israel in the beginning, and there is a condition now for gentiles. The condition is faith, trusting the gospel of Jesus Christ as the only door to God.
So, we know now that Acts 2:38 is not a spiritual baptism, but a water baptism. But is there a spiritual baptism in Acts 2 and Acts 10. Dead sure there is. Let's examine it.
Here is the prophesy of John the Baptist.
Mark 1:8
8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
There is a one time event that took place in Acts 2 that has never been repeated in history. Here it is.
Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
This is it. The prophesy fulfilled. How do I know. Because Peter said it was after he was asked by those who were there. Look.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Here it is. Here is the answer.
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
This has a WOW factor of several degrees. This is before any Jew was baptized in water.
Is this event not prophesied in John 3 by Jesus Christ himself, when he said this;
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
In the next verse when Nicodemus asked how these things can be, then Jesus told him they cannot be until after he was lifted up on the cross. Those things in Acts 2 are immediately after the cross and eternal life is the Spirit who indwells all who repents, believes and is baptized in water. That is what the text says in Acts 2.
Now, I have more insight into this but my post is getting too long and I will wind this one up by quoting the condition of gentiles during the time of Acts 2 and you can be sure from this quote that they were not under immediate consideration at that time.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Acts 3 to the men of Israel.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
So, in Acts 2, Jesus performed a spiritual baptism by pouring out his Spirit on the earth to indwell men and give them life and the apostles performed the water baptism that was a requirement and a token of their repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.
Let me know if I am onto something here, Van.
Yet another long non-germane pile of verbiage!
"If Jesus baptized with the Holy Ghost!" This is not up for debate. Mark 1:18
Am I defining spiritual baptism as the Holy Spirit being already in the one who receives Him? Nope, that is just another false and idiotic claim by the defenders of nonsense.
Definition of Spiritual Baptism:
"Van, If Jesus baptized with the Holy Ghost in Acts 2:38, it means you are defining baptism as the Spirit being in the one who receives him."
"If Jesus baptized with the Holy Ghost!" This is not up for debate. Mark 1:18
Am I defining spiritual baptism as the Holy Spirit being already in the one who receives Him? Nope, that is just another false and idiotic claim by the defenders of nonsense.
Definition of Spiritual Baptism:
Being immersed into the Spirit of Christ, being reborn, and then being sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.
2) Where does scripture say we are reborn before being indwelt?
1) Who does the immersing? The Holy Spirit acting as Christ's agent.2) Where does scripture say we are reborn before being indwelt?
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (NASB)
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
To be established with Christ is to be made alive, regenerated, reborn.Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
When we become spiritual children of God, which is when we are spiritually reborn, we then have been given the right to become physical children of God at Christ's second coming and thus we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a pledge of our redemption is glorified bodies at Christ's second coming.
You did not quote my whole comment. You left off, "in Acts 2:38." Remember Van, the person being baptized is placed into whatever are whomever he is being immersed. In Acts 2:38, the repenters and believers who had already been immersed with the Holy Ghost were presenting themselves for baptism in water in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins as pre-conditions to receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost in them. Being baptized in water does not make one take on the character of water, but if water is in a person, then the water becomes one with that person who ingests it. This is the picture in Acts 2:38. The Holy Spirit was poured out like water from above in such abundance that everyone can drink and there will be plenty left. The properties of water and the properties of the Spirit are the same. One is physical and the other spiritual. Nothing can live in the physical unless the water is in them. Nothing can live in the spiritual unless the Spirit is in them. Both come from above and both are a free gift from God. One can be standing in a pool of clear and cold water and die of thirst if he refuses to drink and a person can be baptized with the Holy Ghost, as Israel was, and not live because they did not receive the Spirit of Christ, who is life. God had sent him in a baptism in Acts 2. We read about it. But that did not put the Spirit in them and he was not a part with them, until they obeyed what Peter said they must do. Remember what it was that they must do? They must repent and be baptized, every one of them, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Look at this concerning Israel.
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)
Concerning the world;
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
That truth has a WOW factor.
I do not think you are presenting your case very well, Van. It seems you have latched on to a couple or three verses that have baptism in them and have built your understanding on those without giving it serious thought and meditation. Case in point, you seem to be referring to the following verse, (I am guessing here).
1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Obviously this is not the spiritual baptism of Israel in Acts 2. This is a baptism into the body of Christ of those who have received the Spirit into their own bodies by faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Now, he is in us and we are in him at the same time. It doesn't get much better than that, Van.
Here is what you said in post # 34.
Here is what you say in this post
You get close at times, Van, but you never nail it. I appreciate your time on this important thread and I hope you will read my next somewhat lengthy post where I will give irrefutable biblical proof that Israel were commanded to be baptized in water as a precondition for receiving the Holy Ghost into their hearts during the apostolic era, or at least until AD 40 when God opened the door of faith to gentiles.
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When we become spiritual children of God, which is when we are spiritually reborn, we then have been given the right to become physical children of God at Christ's second coming and thus we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a pledge of our redemption in glorified bodies at Christ's second coming.
Definition of Spiritual Baptism:
Being immersed into the Spirit of Christ, being reborn, and then being sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.
To be established with Christ is to be made alive, regenerated, reborn.1) Who does the immersing? The Holy Spirit acting as Christ's agent.
2) Where does scripture say we are reborn before being indwelt?
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (NASB)
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
2) Where does scripture say we are reborn before being indwelt?
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (NASB)
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
To repeat the answer concerning whether Acts 2:38 refers to water baptism or spiritual baptism:
Since no person is sealed in Christ unless they have been spiritually baptized into Christ, Acts 2:38 is referring to our spiritual baptism.
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Following is the subject I am interested in discussing on this thread, and I am wanting to to discuss it in a dispensational context. A dispensational context is a context where one resists the idea that you have been presenting here. That is that, you, as a gentile, in the year 2022 are being instructed and are under consideration in Acts 2:38 and are responsible to apply the words you are reading in this text to yourself in a practical way. This is a great error of yours.
I would like to prove in my comments, from the scriptures, that this is a water baptism and it is a precondition for the men of Israel and has nothing to do with gentiles at this point in the history of the beginning of the church of Jesus Christ. It is of great value to gentiles because it lets us know the mind of God and how he is accomplishing his purpose for this age.
First of all, The apostles are beginning to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ in the exact order that our Lord instructed them to preach it 10 days earlier as he ascended to heaven in Acts chapter 1. It says this.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both
in Jerusalem, and
in all Judaea, and
in Samaria, and
unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
This is the order of the preaching in which the history in the Acts is laid out. The first three of the places that are mention is associated with men of Israel and the precondition for receiving the Holy Ghost is to be baptized in water before the gift is given. There seems to be no doubt with me that seven years, Acts 2 thru 7, had been occupied with the preaching to Jerusalem and Judaea before the apostles and prophets began preaching to Samaria. This was about 7 years. Acts 8 and the ministry to the Samaritans will give us more details about how the order and methods of the apostles and prophets played out. This is the third step in the spread of the Christian faith. We understand from the scriptures that Samaria is considered in the mind of God to be of the family of Israel and typically they are representative of the northern tribes of Israel.
It might be well to pause here and to prove this from the scriptures. I will begin my proof by the ministry of Jesus Christ in the flesh and his following the exact path of ministry that he has outlined for the apostles. I will hit the high spots here from the gospel of John, beginning in chapter 3 after the baptism of our Lord.
In chapter 3 we have the Lord in Jerusalem with Nicodemus.
John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
Jn 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Then we have him in Judaea.
Jn 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
Then to Samaria
John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples)
3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.
4 And he must needs go through Samaria.
5 Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.
Then to Galilee of the gentiles.
43 Now after two days he departed thence, and went into Galilee.
(Remember, With God, a thousand years are as a day and a day is as a thousand years, and Abraham to Jesus is 2000 years).
44 For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honour in his own country.
45 Then when he was come into Galilee, the Galilaeans received him, having seen all the things that he did at Jerusalem at the feast: for they also went unto the feast.
Let's look at this prophetically briefly.
The condition of the soil in the first parable of the sowing of the seed in Matt 13, which chronicles this present age, from the cross to the day of the Lord, the beginning to the end, is a match of the response and history of the spread of the gospel of Christ. Take a look.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: (Jerusalem)
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. (Judaea)
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: (Samaria)
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. (The Gentile world)
It is important in this thread that you understand that it is not fanciful on my part to consider that Samaria represents people of the family of Israel, or the northern tribes but that the scriptures bears that out.
Jesus said this about his earthly ministry.
Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
John wrote this.
Jn 4:4 And he must needs go through Samaria.
5 Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.
Continued