Dispensational interpretation of the "eye of the needle" Rich Man

[The Biblicist]

Revelation 14:11 doesn't sound like salvation to me.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

The lost take the mark and the lost go to hell! However, that does not prove salvation is conditioned upon the mark. It merely defines who it is that takes the mark - the lost - those who go to hell.

It seems you are denying sin as the problem to be saved from during the tribulation. It seems you are teaching "another gospel" during the tribulation period and thus another Savior and another kind of salvation.

 

[Jope]

Lost people will take the mark of the beast but that does not mean salvation is conditioned upon the mark. Think this through! Are you saying that tribulation mankind has a different problem to be saved from other than "sin" and there is a different kind of savior, salvation and gospel in the tribulation period?

The blood of Christ will save during the Tribulation [Rom. 11:26-27, Rev. 7:9-14, 12:11].
There will be a different gospel dispensation during the tribulation period [1 Cor. 9:17], it will be the same everlasting gospel though [Rev. 14:6].
The gospel that will be preached during the tribulation will be the gospel of the kingdom [Mt. 24:14].

 

[Moriah]

The "new man" of Eph. 2:15 is speaking about the Church, Christ's body.

The new man is the Jews and Gentiles. The two, Jew and Gentile, became one new man.

However, when the Church, Christ's body is raptured pre-trib, Jews and Gentiles will be separate on earth during the tribulation period.

"Separate" in that the Gentiles are not of Abraham's seed.

I hope you read each of these scriptures carefully.
Galatians 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 4:13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Romans 9:8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

 

[Jope]

It seems you are denying sin as the problem to be saved from during the tribulation.

Christ, the Deliverer, shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob when he comes to deliver Israel [Rom. 11:26-27].

 

[The Biblicist]

The blood of Christ will save during the Tribulation [Rom. 11:26-27, Rev. 7:9-14, 12:11].
There will be a different gospel dispensation during the tribulation period [1 Cor. 9:17], it will be the same everlasting gospel though [Rev. 14:6].
The gospel that will be preached during the tribulation will be the gospel of the kingdom [Mt. 24:14].

Paul and Philip preached the gospel of the kingdom to Samaritans and Gentile churches at Ephesus and at Rome in the book of Acts:

Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Ac 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

Both John The Baptist and Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom and the content is revealed in John 3:1-16 and John 3:36. We preach the same gospel of the kingdom today. It is the good news of how to enter the SPIRITUAL kingdom of God by NEW BIRTH (Jn. 3:1-13) and faith in the gospel (Jn. 3:14-21; 36) as that is the prerequisite for all who would see or enter the future millennial or eternal kingdom of God.

 

[Jope]

I hope you read each of these

I did. I'll stick with the KJV on Ephesians 3:6 though. Yours gave Ephesians 3:6 a lil twist.

I don't know why you wanted me to read Romans 4:13... and by Romans 9:8, do you mean to say that any Jew that was a descendant of Abraham can't be a child of God?

As per Galatians 3:29, Yes, the church [Christ's Body] is Abraham's seed, because the Church is Christ's body, and that is who the promises were made to [Gal. 3:17]. This is the mystery that Ephesians 3:4-6 is talking about...That the Gentiles should be of the same body of Christ [Eph. 5:30].

 

[Moriah]

Christ, the Deliverer, shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob when he comes to deliver Israel [Rom. 11:26-27].

Romans 11:26-27 is about explaining that God did not cut all the Jews off forever.
It must have seemed as if the Jews were cut off forever. Read Romans 11:29, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

 

[Jope]

Paul and Philip preached the gospel of the kingdom to Samaritans and Gentile churches at Ephesus and at Rome in the book of Acts:

Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Ac 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

Both John The Baptist and Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom and the content is revealed in John 3:1-16 and John 3:36. We preach the same gospel of the kingdom today. It is the good news of how to enter the SPIRITUAL kingdom of God by NEW BIRTH (Jn. 3:1-13) and faith in the gospel (Jn. 3:14-21; 36) as that is the prerequisite for all who would see or enter the future millennial or eternal kingdom of God.

There is a difference in inheritances between the church [Christ's Body] and Israel in the Millennium.

1 Peter 1:3-4 teaches us that The Church, Christ's Body has a heavenly inheritance reserved for them...Jer. 3:18 & Deut. 30:5 teaches us that Israel has an earthly inheritance reserved for them.

While the grace of God was present during the Mosaic Covenant [2Kings 13:22-23]... The law was present as well. In fact, the law was imposed on them [Heb. 9:10]. Numbers 15:32-36 tells us what God commanded Moses to do concerning that man that broke the sabbath [he was stoned to death]. Hebrews 4:2 tells us that the gospel was preached unto them though.

Clearly it was a different gospel dispensation though, one that included the Mosaic law with the Sabbath observance.
The present gospel dispensation does not require Mosaic law observance [Rom. 6:14-15, 7:4].

During the future tribulation period, it will be a different gospel dispensation than the one that is presently committed to Paul [1 Cor. 9:17]. This is shown by Mt. 24:20 and Isa. 56:6-8's presence of the law of Moses during the tribulation period.

 

[Moriah]

I did. I'll stick with the KJV on Ephesians 3:6 though. Yours gave Ephesians 3:6 a lil twist.

From what I read from the NIV and the KJV, they say the same thing.
NIV 1984 Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

I don't know why you wanted me to read Romans 4:13... and by Romans 9:8, do you mean to say that any Jew that was a descendant of Abraham can't be a child of God?

Of course, the Jew that was a descendant of Abraham can be a child of God, but of course only through Jesus. Did you mean through faith in Jesus?
I do not know why you do not know why I wanted you to read Romans 4:13 and 9:8.

 

[Jope]

The new man is the Jews and Gentiles.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both [Jew and Gentile] unto God in one body [His Church] by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:​

The new man is not the Jews and Gentiles.
The new man is Christ.

 

[Moriah]

There is a difference in inheritances between the church [Christ's Body] and Israel in the Millennium.

1 Peter 1:3-4 teaches us that The Church, Christ's Body has a heavenly inheritance reserved for them...Jer. 3:18 & Deut. 30:5 teaches us that Israel has an earthly inheritance reserved for them.

I know you were replying to Biblicist, but I wanted to comment on what you say here.

The Physical Land aspect of the Abrahamic Covenant has been fulfilled already, scripture confirms it here Joshua 23:14

14And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

Josh 21:43-45

43And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Neh 9:8

8And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

So that aspect of the Promise has been performed and done with. The Antitype Fulfillment is yet to be fulfilled with the Glorification of the Church all of Abraham's Spiritual Seed. Gen 17:5-8

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

While the grace of God was present during the Mosaic Covenant [2Kings 13:22-23]... The law was present as well. In fact, the law was imposed on them [Heb. 9:10]. Numbers 15:32-36 tells us what God commanded Moses to do concerning that man that broke the sabbath [he was stoned to death]. Hebrews 4:2 tells us that the gospel was preached unto them though.
Clearly it was a different gospel dispensation though, one that included the Mosaic law with the Sabbath observance.
The present gospel dispensation does not require Mosaic law observance [Rom. 6:14-15, 7:4].

During the future tribulation period, it will be a different gospel dispensation than the one that is presently committed to Paul [1 Cor. 9:17]. This is shown by Mt. 24:20 and Isa. 56:6-8's presence of the law of Moses during the tribulation period.

The Old Testament prophesied about Jesus. For instance, Jesus is our Sabbath Rest.
The Old Testament law was to keep us until Jesus came. It is about earthy things while we waited for the Spiritual things.

 

[Jope]

I do not know why you do not know why I wanted you to read Romans 4:13 and 9:8.

I was saying that "and by romans 9:8..." etc.
I wasn't saying I don't know why you wanted me to read Romans 9:8.

I don't know why you wanted me to read Romans 4:13 though, can you explain?

 

[Jope]

I know you were replying to Biblicist, but I wanted to comment on what you say here.

The Physical Land aspect of the Abrahamic Covenant has been fulfilled already, scripture confirms it here Joshua 23:14

14And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

Josh 21:43-45

43And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Neh 9:8

8And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

So that aspect of the Promise has been performed and done with. The Antitype Fulfillment is yet to be fulfilled with the Glorification of the Church all of Abraham's Spiritual Seed. Gen 17:5-8

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

...What about Jeremiah 3:18, Ezek. 47:14?
Do you believe that Ezek. 47:14 is speaking about the Millennium?

 

[Moriah]

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Those who were far off were the Gentiles. They were far off, they were excluded and without God and Christ.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

That is about the Jews and Gentiles.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both [Jew and Gentile] unto God in one body [His Church] by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

The new man is not the Jews and Gentiles.
The new man is Christ.

The new man is the Jew and Gentile becoming one in Christ.

 

[Jope]

From what I read from the NIV and the KJV, they say the same thing.
NIV 1984 Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

If you read Ephesians 3 from verse 4 until 6, we can see who the phrase "the same body" is speaking about.

Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body [the same body of Christ, that is {Eph. 5:30-32, Rev. 3:21, John 17:21-26, Eph. 2:6-7}], and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:​

It's not saying that the Jews & Gentiles being the same body was the mystery, it's saying that Christ having a gentile "Church Body" was the mystery.

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.​

The Apostle expounds upon verse 30 with verse 31, then he says that the husband and wife shall be one flesh, and says that it is a great mystery.
Then the Apostle goes on to say that He is speaking about Christ and the Church...His body. Us being one with Christ [Rev. 3:21, John 17:21-26] is the mystery.

Of course it was revealed that Christ would do Psalm 2:8-9...but was it ever revealed that His Body [who we are] would do Psalm 2:8-9 as well [Rev. 2:26-27]?

 

[Jope]

I am just not sure I understand what you are saying.

Those who do not believe in Jesus are not saved. The Jews who were alive at Jesus’ time on earth, they were cut off for not having faith in Jesus.
So then, since the Jews were cut off, what makes you think their descendents are not also cut off if they do not believe in Jesus?

Deuteronomy 4:28-31, Matthew 5:17-18 and Romans 11:25-29.

 

[Jope]

Originally Posted by Jope
We see that some of the Gentiles will help Israel out [Rev. 12:16, Mt. 25:31-46].

How do you get from those scriptures that it is about Gentiles helping Israel out? How do you separate saved Jews from saved Gentiles?

Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Matt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Matt 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matt 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Matt 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Matt 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Matt 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Matt 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Matt 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matt 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Matt 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Matt 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Matt 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

Verse 32 tells us that the nations will be gathered together before Christ.
Verse 40 tells us that the nations will be judged on how they treated Christ's brethren.

Now, If "Christ's brethren" is speaking about The Church, His body, then why aren't "the nations" [for whom the kingdom is prepared from the foundation of the world, verse 34] a part of The Church, His body?
- "Christ's brethren" therefore cannot be speaking about the Church, His Body.

Christ's brethren is speaking about the Jews [Rom. 9:4-5].
- The Church, His Body is already raptured pre-trib [Rev. 3:10, 1 Thess. 5:9, 1 Thess. 4:14-17, 1 Cor. 15:50-58] at this Mt. 25:32 event. In fact, 1 Cor. 6:2 tells us that we will judge the world [We are Christ's Body...Eph. 5:30...and so will we be present at the Mt. 25:32 event? I say yes].
- The Gentiles will do these things [described in verses 35-36], because the Jews will be hated of all nations for Christ's name's sake, and they will be thrown in prison...they will be poor, and will have to leave their possessions [Mt. 10:17-22, Luke 21:12-19, Mk. 10:29, Mt. 24:15-18, Rev. 13:17].

In Revelation 12:16, the earth is the Gentiles I take it.

 

[Moriah]

If you read Ephesians 3 from verse 4 until 6, we can see who the phrase "the same body" is speaking about.

Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body [the same body of Christ, that is {Eph. 5:30-32, Rev. 3:21, John 17:21-26, Eph. 2:6-7}], and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:​

It's not saying that the Jews & Gentiles being the same body was the mystery, it's saying that Christ having a gentile "Church Body" was the mystery.

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.​

The Apostle expounds upon verse 30 with verse 31, then he says that the husband and wife shall be one flesh, and says that it is a great mystery.
Then the Apostle goes on to say that He is speaking about Christ and the Church...His body. Us being one with Christ [Rev. 3:21, John 17:21-26] is the mystery.

Of course it was revealed that Christ would do Psalm 2:8-9...but was it ever revealed that His Body [who we are] would do Psalm 2:8-9 as well [Rev. 2:26-27]?

The scriptures plainly and clearly say the Jews and Gentiles become one new man in Christ.
God nailed the Old Testament rules and regulations to the cross. The rules and regulations separated Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Moriah]

Deuteronomy 4:28-31, Matthew 5:17-18 and Romans 11:25-29.

Those who do not believe in Jesus are not saved. The Jews who were alive at Jesus’ time on earth, they were cut off for not having faith in Jesus.
So then, since the Jews were cut off, what makes you think their descendents are not also cut off if they do not believe in Jesus?

 

[Moriah]

Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Matt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Matt 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matt 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Matt 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Matt 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Matt 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Matt 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Matt 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matt 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Matt 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Matt 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Matt 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

Verse 32 tells us that the nations will be gathered together before Christ.
Verse 40 tells us that the nations will be judged on how they treated Christ's brethren.

Now, If "Christ's brethren" is speaking about The Church, His body, then why aren't "the nations" [for whom the kingdom is prepared from the foundation of the world, verse 34] a part of The Church, His body?
- "Christ's brethren" therefore cannot be speaking about the Church, His Body.

Christ's brethren is speaking about the Jews [Rom. 9:4-5].
- The Church, His Body is already raptured pre-trib [Rev. 3:10, 1 Thess. 5:9, 1 Thess. 4:14-17, 1 Cor. 15:50-58] at this Mt. 25:32 event. In fact, 1 Cor. 6:2 tells us that we will judge the world [We are Christ's Body...Eph. 5:30...and so will we be present at the Mt. 25:32 event? I say yes].
- The Gentiles will do these things [described in verses 35-36], because the Jews will be hated of all nations for Christ's name's sake, and they will be thrown in prison...they will be poor, and will have to leave their possessions [Mt. 10:17-22, Luke 21:12-19, Mk. 10:29, Mt. 24:15-18, Rev. 13:17].

In Revelation 12:16, the earth is the Gentiles I take it.

Christ's brethren are a part of Jesus' body. Christ's brethren are all races of people.