Dispensationalism Defined, Discussed, Debated

[robustheologian]

I was nor aware that any historical/covenant premillennialist believed in a pre-trib removal of the Church.

There seems to be a lot of inconsistencies with being covenantal yet pre-trib.

 

[revmwc]

...and there it is, the 'parenthesis Church' that you all mock OR for correctly pointing out.

Briefly, concisely, without lobbing your gobs of c & p, where zactly did Paul say that?

A parenthesis is something placed between a time period that did not fit in order. The church age fit in order God's order. God has dealt with men in eon's and each eon was in the Perfect sovereign plan of God. Not something inserted when one didn't work. God knew when each eon would come and He knew when each eon would go! Just as He knows when we were to be born and when we will die. Just like in His Sovereign Omniscience He knew who would choose to accept Christ and Who would not. Because He is all Knowing and therefore whom He did Foreknow that is, He knew they would choose for Christ those He also did Predestinate to adoption.

A Parenthesis is an insertion and that is not what Paul said. Sorry Paul did not teach that there was a Parenthesis Church, Paul taught there were eon's that God dealt with man in different ways.

Ephesians 1:21 from the imterlinear, that is straight from Greek to English,

21 OVER-UP OF-EVERY ORIGINal sovereignty AND authority AND ABILITY power AND masterdom AND EVERY NAME beING-NAMED NOT ONLY IN THE eon this but AND also IN THE beING-ABOUT one-impending.

 

[John of Japan]

Actually historical premillennialism does not believe in a pretrib rapture. A pretrib rapture is the defining point in whether a premillennial view is dispensational or covenantal.

Actually, there are no rules anywhere as to what advocates of historical premillenialism must believe, unless you believe there is an authoritative theological organization that gives the only accepted definitions. :smilewinkgrin:

"Premillenarians have never organized or attempted to display their influence. They form no sectarian denomination, but are scattered through all Protestant churches" (Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol. 4, p. 282).

 

[John of Japan]

I was nor aware that any historical/covenant premillennialist believed in a pre-trib removal of the Church.

John R. Rice was neither dispensational nor covenant, but believed in a pretrib premil rapture.

 

[OldRegular]

John R. Rice was neither dispensational nor covenant, but believed in a pretrib premil rapture.

Did he hold to the classic dispensational doctrine that the Church is a parenthesis in GOD's program for national/ethnic Israel. I posted the following earlier:

Conclusion

We have seen from Ephesians 3 that Paul teaches that the church age is a unique phase in God' s master plan, contrary to Dr. Gentry' s claims. This Pauline revealed mystery concerning the Body of Christ does support the notion that the church is a parenthesis in God' s plan. Not an afterthought, but a temporary intercalation in God' s program for Israel! In concert with Paul' s mystery, James said in Acts 15:14-16 that God is " taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name" (verse 14), then He will return and restore Israel (verse 16). Coupled with Paul' s teaching in Ephesians 2 and 3, we know that those elect Gentiles of this church age are combined in a co-equal way with the Jewish remnant of the same period. When God' s purpose for the church is complete He will end this temporary age with the rapture before the tribulation. Then He will work through Israel to bring her into the bond of the covenant and then all redeemed peoples of the ages will reign in their own order with Messiah in the millennial kingdom. Maranatha!

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheUniquenessofTheChurch.html

 

[OldRegular]

A parenthesis is something placed between a time period that did not fit in order. The church age fit in order God's order. God has dealt with men in eon's and each eon was in the Perfect sovereign plan of God. Not something inserted when one didn't work. God knew when each eon would come and He knew when each eon would go! Just as He knows when we were to be born and when we will die. Just like in His Sovereign Omniscience He knew who would choose to accept Christ and Who would not. Because He is all Knowing and therefore whom He did Foreknow that is, He knew they would choose for Christ those He also did Predestinate to adoption.

A Parenthesis is an insertion and that is not what Paul said. Sorry Paul did not teach that there was a Parenthesis Church, Paul taught there were eon's that God dealt with man in different ways.

Ephesians 1:21 from the imterlinear, that is straight from Greek to English,

21 OVER-UP OF-EVERY ORIGINal sovereignty AND authority AND ABILITY power AND masterdom AND EVERY NAME beING-NAMED NOT ONLY IN THE eon this but AND also IN THE beING-ABOUT one-impending.

No one has said that Paul taught a parenthesis" Church {Unless it is some dispensationalist not yet discovered!}. He has been falsely accused of teaching the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church.

 

[John of Japan]

Did he hold to the classic dispensational doctrine that the Church is a parenthesis in GOD's program for national/ethnic Israel. I posted the following earlier:

No he did not. He believed OT saints were included in the church, as can be seen in several of his books, most notably the chapter, "Churches and the Church" in Twelve Tremendous Themes.

 

[Darrell C]

When I say historical premillennialism, I'm using it as a technical term. Maybe you would understand it better if I referred to it by its other names "post-tribulational premillennialism"

Doesn't matter what name you call it, John mentioned historical pre-millenialism, which as far as I know is not timing specific but simply speaks of the fact that the early Church was premillennial.

or "covenantal premillennialism".

The primary similarity being pre-millenialism.

And I would say based on scripture in its entirety (not just 2 Thess. 4), there is not a pre-trib rapture.

I would disagree, lol, and be glad to discuss it in a thread.

Even the early Church fathers believed in a post-trib premillennialism.

And that is why the Church resembles modern American families.

Too much faith in Church fathers, and not enough study of God's Word.

Let me know if you would like to discuss that Pre-Trib Rapture. I can start a thread that restricts participation to Scripture only, and report anyone dragging extra-biblical material into it. Have had a little success with that before, and was able to actually discuss the Rapture itself, lol. I promise that it is a great discussion.

Just about out of time, so let me know. I am planning on wrapping up my time here because I have other projects, plus a business to run to think about.


God bless.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Just wanted to post to let everyone know that I did start the thread and then just forget it. I have been reading the responses.



I haven't been participating, because prophecy and end times is not my strong suit. I do better with Biblical history than I do eschatology. As such, some of the responses have been "over my head" and will require further study.

 

[OldRegular]

Just wanted to post to let everyone know that I did start the thread and then just forget it. I have been reading the responses.



I haven't been participating, because prophecy and end times is not my strong suit. I do better with Biblical history than I do eschatology. As such, some of the responses have been "over my head" and will require further study.

If you believe in the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church you should know the source of that doctrine. You might read the following: {http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-JohnNelsonDarbyandth.pdf}

Dr. Thomas Ice is a prolific writer and defender of pre-trib-dispensationalism. His web site is {http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/ttcol.html}.

 

[revmwc]

If you believe in the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church you should know the source of that doctrine. You might read the following: {http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-JohnNelsonDarbyandth.pdf}

Dr. Thomas Ice is a prolific writer and defender of pre-trib-dispensationalism. His web site is {http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/ttcol.html}.

No those are your source, most pre-trib and disepensationalist see Paul's teaching in scripture of that view. We also have shown early church fathers taught it. You refuse to acknowledge what we post and you have anonymosity for Darby and believe all dispensationalist and pre-tribbers fallow his teaching again we have shown how incorrect that is but you just keep on with your false notion ALL follow Darby. So it didn't start with Darby go back to Scripture and it is their if you keep an open mind to it.

 

[OldRegular]

No those are your source, most pre-trib and disepensationalist see Paul's teaching in scripture of that view. We also have shown early church fathers taught it. You refuse to acknowledge what we post and you have anonymosity for Darby and believe all dispensationalist and pre-tribbers fallow his teaching again we have shown how incorrect that is but you just keep on with your false notion ALL follow Darby. So it didn't start with Darby go back to Scripture and it is their if you keep an open mind to it.

Listen! If you have read Ice's article about Darby and still believe the nonsense you posted above you are dishonest. If you have not read Ice's article then you need to be quite until you read it.

I don't particularly care what the Church Fathers taught. History shows that many of them taught false doctrine. I do care when people misrepresent what the Bible teaches. Pre-trib-dispensationalism is a false doctrine. It is not based on Scripture but on the teachings of John Nelson Darby, Cyrus Scofield and a hot of others who jumped in the hole dug by Darby and Scofield and don't have enough sense to climb out but just keep digging deeper.

 

[blessedwife318]

Revmwc
You have not shown that the church father's taught pre-trib dispensationalism. What you have shown is at best they were pre-mill. But as I showed by giving the context of the quotes you cherry picked that they were not pre-trib.

 

[beameup]

It is easy to see how the "early church fathers" were not clear on the rapture, as the nation of Israel had ceased to exist. We, today, no longer have that "excuse" to "dismiss" Israel as irrelevant.
With Israel nonexistent, it makes sense to conclude that the "church" was established on earth, and it didn't "make sense" for it to be "removed" so that a nonexistent Israel could fulfill the prophecies concerning the "Tribulation".
As for the doctrine that the "kingdom" is already here on earth and that Jesus is "ruling from heaven", that is purely a concoction of the 4th Century Roman/Catholic Church.

 

[OldRegular]

It is easy to see how the "early church fathers" were not clear on the rapture, as the nation of Israel had ceased to exist. We, today, no longer have that "excuse" to "dismiss" Israel as irrelevant.
With Israel nonexistent, it makes sense to conclude that the "church" was established on earth, and it didn't "make sense" for it to be "removed" so that a nonexistent Israel could fulfill the prophecies concerning the "Tribulation".
As for the doctrine that the "kingdom" is already here on earth and that Jesus is "ruling from heaven", that is purely a concoction of the 4th Century Roman/Catholic Church.

And hyper dispensationalism is considered heretical even by false doctrine pre-trib-classic-dispensationalists. The Apostle Paul was equally harsh saying:

Galatians 1:6-8
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

There is only ONE Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ:

Romans 1:16-18
]16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

beameup you claim there is more than one Gospel. The Bible knows only ONE!

 

[beameup]

OR, is this the gospel that you preach?
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which
God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Acts 3:19-21

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was
committed unto me [Paul], as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:7

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14

 

[OldRegular]

OR, is this the gospel that you preach?
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which
God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Acts 3:19-21

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was
committed unto me [Paul], as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:7

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14

What Gospel did Peter preach to Cornelius, the Gentile?

 

[beameup]

Cornelius was a Jewish proselyte, therefore, he qualified as a Jew, and the promises of a Messianic Kingdom in a restored (Edenic) earth.

The "destiny" of the Body of Christ is heavenly. Paul is the apostle to the (mostly) Gentile Body of Christ.

You really should know this stuff...

 

[OldRegular]

Cornelius was a Jewish proselyte, therefore, he qualified as a Jew, and the promises of a Messianic Kingdom in a restored (Edenic) earth.

The "destiny" of the Body of Christ is heavenly. Paul is the apostle to the (mostly) Gentile Body of Christ.

You really should know this stuff...

Scripture does not say Cornelius was a Jewish proselyte only that he feared GOD and prayed to GOD.

Acts 10:1, 2
1. There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2. A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5. And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:

19. While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20. Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21. Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22. And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23. Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.

And then we read the following as Peter preached to Cornelius and other Gentiles:

Acts 10:40-48
40. Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41. Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48. And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 11:1-3
1. And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
2. And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
3. Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

Now it is obvious that Cornelius was not a Jewish proselyte but an uncircumcised Gentile. Furthermore it is obvious that the Gospel Peter preached to the Gentiles was the same as the Gospel that Paul preached to both Jew and Gentile which is the same as the Gospel that Jesus Christ preached.

John 3:16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

From Peter in Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

From the Apostle Paul in his letter to the Church at Rome:

Romans 10:11-15
11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Now it is obvious that your heretical claim that there are two Gospels is just that, HERESY!

Furthermore, it is obvious that Cornelius was not a Jewish proselyte.

And then it is obvious that Peter preached the Gospel to Gentiles before Paul did and that both preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So beameup take your own advice:

Originally Posted by beameup

You really should know this stuff...

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Haaaaaaa haaaaaa....they don't know who they are messing with:laugh::laugh: