Dispensationalism Defined, Discussed, Debated

[kyredneck]

Jesus made room for His delay

"I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Does that statement hold any bearing at all with your approach to the words of The Prophet?

"The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed". Charles Hodge

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

He 'delayed' 40 years, and 'came into His kingdom' within 'that generation', just as He said He would, and those 'evil servants' were cast out of His kingdom, just as He said they would be, Mt 8:11,12.

What about 2 Peter 3:8-10?

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet 3:9

Peter was the apostle to the Jews and the 'longsuffering to you-ward' is the forty years God gave the Jews to repent and avoid 'the wrath to come' upon that generation and bringing the curses/plagues of Lev 26/Dt 28 down upon their progeny.

'I gave her time that she should repent; and she willeth not to repent' Re 2:21.

'Not wishing that any should perish' is in the same vein as Acts 2:40:

And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

Or Acts 3:23:

And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

Or Rev 18:4:

Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:

 

[HankD]

So you're convinced that this present political entity that goes by the name of Israel is the final state? By no means is this opinion universal among Baptists, not the least of which is:

“Dr. Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and a dispensational premillennialist:

The present state of Israel is not the final form. The present state of Israel will be lost, eventually, and Israel will be run out of the land again, only to return when they accept the Messiah as Savior.”

Correct. National Israel of today is not the final form. However out of National Israel during the time of Jacob's trouble (Tribulation) will come Redeemed Israel.

Jeremiah 29
3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

But what national Israel does today (e.g. rebuild the temple) may very well impact future eschatology (IMO).

Also I read the article by "Gary" per the URL you gave.

Why is he troubled by the predictions of the future intensity of the wrath of God poured out on the Jews or anyone else for that matter?

God in one of His past retributions of wrath very nearly obliterated the entire human race in a terrestrial cataclysm :

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.



HankD

 

[HankD]

"I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Does that statement hold any bearing at all with your approach to the words of The Prophet?

He was sent in His incarnation to Israel, In His glorification He will judge the entire world, Jew and Gentile.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
...
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
...
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

He 'delayed' 40 years, and 'came into His kingdom' within 'that generation', just as He said He would, and those 'evil servants' were cast out of His kingdom, just as He said they would be, Mt 8:11,12.

Opinion, His delays are according to His time frame reference. He delayed the abrahamic covenant of a promised land 400 years while Israel languished suffering in Egypt, they even forgot His name.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet 3:9

Peter was the apostle to the Jews and the 'longsuffering to you-ward' is the forty years God gave the Jews to repent and avoid 'the wrath to come' upon that generation and bringing the curses/plagues of Lev 26/Dt 28 down upon their progeny.

I can accept that much of Matthew 24 and Luke 21 were fulfilled in AD70.

However while Peter was the apostle to the circumcision, he uses a global cataclysm (flood of Noah) to compare to another cataclysm of fire, which to be consistent must be global as well in the immediate context.

It's not ALL about the Jews or you and I (gentiles) would not be having this conversation.

HankD

 

[kyredneck]

Correct. National Israel of today is not the final form. However out of National Israel during the time of Jacob's trouble (Tribulation) will come Redeemed Israel.

Jeremiah 29
3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them..

Concerning the great tribulation, Jacob's trouble:

21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

Concerning 'David their king, whom I will raise up unto them':

29 Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day.
30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne;
31 he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
32 This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.
34 For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet.
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2

14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, Acts 15

But what national Israel does today (e.g. rebuild the temple) may very well impact future eschatology (IMO).

Are you a Zionist? Do you believe it's God's will that we as Christians are obligated to unconditionally support and approve of everything they do?

Also I read the article by "Gary" per the URL you gave.

Why is he troubled by the predictions of the future intensity of the wrath of God poured out on the Jews or anyone else for that matter?

You missed the point. Many, if not most, Dispies are swift to bring down the charge of anti-Semitism on those that feel no particular obligation to Israel after the flesh, while their own eschatology promotes 'the [yet future] great tribulation' where 2/3 of all Jews will be killed.

 

[HankD]

Concerning the great tribulation, Jacob's trouble:

21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

Concerning 'David their king, whom I will raise up unto them':

29 Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day.
30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne;
31 he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
32 This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.
34 For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet.
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2

14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, Acts 15

"This generation" and the what where and when of it is what is in question here.

Are you a Zionist? Do you believe it's God's will that we as Christians are obligated to unconditionally support and approve of everything they do?

No and No.

You missed the point. Many, if not most, Dispies are swift to bring down the charge of anti-Semitism on those that feel no particular obligation to Israel after the flesh, while their own eschatology promotes 'the [yet future] great tribulation' where 2/3 of all Jews will be killed.

I don't know if I qualify as a "dispie" and I know that there are indeed those who have done as you have said and its not right. We should all leave bringing the charge of anti-semite or anti-anti-semite to the judge of all the earth.

I would like to leave this where it is ky. I am weary of rehearsing our positions over and over and all their permutations concerning our eschatology because it never ends well and I don't want to lose your (or anyone else's) friendship brother.

One throws - explain "this generation" at someone as a gotcha, then the someone throws back - explain "the thousand years" as retaliation.

Which would be fine if each gave an answer, but it starts the tailspin all over again.

I don't want to get entangled again - sometimes I give my opinion though.

Anyone who has been here a while knows that in the past I spent a great deal of time in verbal duels with others concerning this and many other matters.


HankD