Dispensationalism

There are several OT prophecies of the Church, one of them is Isa. 65:13-15.

The Church is never mentioned as a present reality in the OT, therefore, it did not exist in the OT.

 

OldRegular

Those who are in Christ's body make up the Church, they are "born again" (John 3:3,7; 1 Pet. 1:23) and God's Spirit lives in them (Rm. 8:9,11; 1 Cor. 3:16).

Locate Scripture stating OT saints are:

1. Taken into Christ's body of believers.
2. Are born again.
3. Indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

 

By contrast, God writes (Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 version):

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

'Dispensation' is no more or less then what God says it is.

Outline of dispensations:
1. gospel
2. fulness of times
3. grace of God
4. God

 

Recalling the words of Jesus Christ to Nicodemus you are saying that there were no people saved in the Old Testament.

John 3:3-7
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

I don't recall that Jesus Christ put any time limitations on this teaching.

 

There are several OT prophecies of the Church, one of them is Isa. 65:13-15.
</font>[/QUOTE]I agree. However, dispensational doctrine states that there is no prophecy regarding the Church in the Old Testament.

 

Beginning with Pentecost those baptized with the Holy Spirit become members of Christ's body of which He is the head. Locate OT Scripture stating the same for the Hebrews.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit , he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

"Water" is the Spirit of Christ, see 4:13-14 and Rm. 8:9. Jesus was not physically alive in the OT to die for their sins, it would be impossible for them to be born of the Spirit of Christ. In the OT his redemptive work was still future. Please locate OT Scripture stating OT saints are born again of water and of the Spirit.

Again I ask, where are OT saints indwelled with the Holy Spirit?

Dispensational doctrine is incorrect as to no OT prophecies regarding the Church. The fact that all OT Scriptures relating to the Church are prophecies affirms that it belongs to a different dispensation. Fulfillment of these prophecies are occurring during the Church Age that began at Pentecost and ends with the Rapture, not during the gospels or the Tribulation.

The "assembly" in the OT was made up of only Hebrews, the Church is composed of Jews and Gentiles. There are too many differences between the OT assembly and the Church to include them in the same dispensation.

 

Prophecynut: //Dispensational doctrine is incorrect as to no OT prophecies regarding the Church. The fact that all OT Scriptures relating to the Church are prophecies affirms that it belongs to a different dispensation. Fulfillment of these prophecies are occurring during the Church Age that began at Pentecost and ends with the Rapture, not during the gospels or the Tribulation.//

Amen, Brother Prophecynut -- Preach it!

Some people get confused.
There is not one homogenious
'dispensational doctrine'. There are many dispensational doctrines
just as there are many flavors of Baptists. So one who says,
"dispensational doctrine says ..." to be correct should
say, "some dispensational doctrine says ...".

 

And your point? What you assert is not borne out by these quotations. A parenthesis does not have to a change in plans or unanticipated.

 

How were people in the Old Testament saved? I suggest that you read John 4:13, 14 and Romans 8:9 again.

You mean none the Old Testament prophecies concerning Jesus Christ and the Church were fulfilled in the Gospels. What did he tell the two disciples on the road to Emmaus:

Luke 24:25-27
25. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26. Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27. And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

What Scripture was Jesus Christ expounding?

Was Job a Hebrew, were the Ninevites Hebrews, were they saved? What about all the people before the Flood, were they all lost?

I have never said there weren't dispensations. There were two, that of the Old Testament, the dispensation that looked forward to the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15 and related prophecies concerning Jesus Christ; and that of the New Testament, the dispensation after the fulfillment of those prophecies.

You must understand what dispensation means. It is a translation of the Greek word oikonomia and appears 7 times in the New Testament it is translated [KJV] dispensation 4 times and stewardship 3 times. The word means:

1) the management of a household or of household affairs
1a) specifically, the management, oversight, administration, of other's property
1b) the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship
1c) administration, dispensation

The word dispensation does not occur at all in the Old Testament.

 

OldRegular

Locate Scripture stating OT saints are:

1. Taken into Christ's body of believers.
2. Are born again.
3. Indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

 

After you tell me how people were saved in the Old testament and before the Death of Jesus Christ.

 

"J Dwight Pentecost writes: “The church is manifestly an interruption of God’s program for Israel.” [Things to Come, 201]"

Doesn't compute. On the other hand, the Mosiac Covenant was an interruption. All the people who came out of Egypt were to be priests. God changed the program after the gold cow incident.

 

Very well put Pastor. So you believe this....well now

 

This is where I see CT's and Dispensationalist talking past each other. You say "Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture would never lead to covenantalism, apart from teh presupposition of covenantalism" and someone holding to CT could also say Quite honestly, I started out studying Dispensationalism far more thoroughly than CT, and I never could get it. And I can't see why these 'truths,' if they come from the simple study of scripture itself, remained hidden for 1800 years.

I don't hate Dispensationalism. Some of its teachers I have great respect for. And I've seen enough of your posts in the past here to know that you have high regard for scripture. I respect that in anyone, even when I disagree.

But what I do hate are muddled arguments that confuse the issues. Which arguments of this type do. </font>[/QUOTE]You didn't start out studying correctly my friend or you would have never left it. When the truth of Gods Word talks, you listen.

"Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture would never lead to Dispensationalism, apart from the presupposition of Dispensationalism.

I believe just the opposite. If you could take a brand new believer and get him to prayerfully study, unfiltered by anyones doctrine, he would eventually see God's word correctly. Or, God would reveal His Word rightly.

 

I cannot think of any books written before 1800 which address dispensationalism, can you?

 

I cannot think of any books written before 1800 which address dispensationalism, can you? </font>[/QUOTE]No I cannot, but I'm not a history buff. I was even unaware of Darby and his work before coming on this board.

But I still conclude that the dispensational view would prevail in an unencumbered (by preconceptions) study. Pauls message was all but forgotten by the end of his own life.

 

Chemnitz on Dispensational flaws:
//6. Ultimately, the eschatology of dispensationalism offers a dangerously false
hope. The views of a pre-tribulation or mid- tribulation rapture offer the Christian
the false hope of exemption from the intensified persecution toward the end.
...//

A dispensationalist said (and I agree):
//There is certainly nothing wrong with looking hopefully forward to
the pretribulation rapture, in light of the scriptural evidence declaring it.
The focus of scripture is Christ, from "in the beginning" to
"do not add or detract." It is always about Christ.//

I'd like to talk about 'false' hope. This reason for doubting the
dispensationalist's teaching is assuming the conclusion, a logical flaw
that can produce untruth. I get the accusation " a dangerously false
doctrine" on another matter: Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS).
It is a dangerous doctrine because someone will use it as an occasion
to sin. So? if people misuse God's Holy Written Word, are we to
disbelieve it?

Romans 3:3 (KJV1769 Edition):
For what if some did not believe?
shall their Unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Strangely, it is the a-mill/post-tribs i find believing that
pre-mill/pretrib and OSAS are both wrong.
I beleive in OSAS. If post-trib is right, I think God is big enough to cover
those who bend under torture.
Those who beleive not in OSAS and believe post-trib have
God throwing 200 Million Christians to the wolves to be devoured
by them. For what purpose. I sure don't know. All i know
is that 999,997 of a million people will sign any document, deny any
principle a mean person wants them to - after 72-hours of torture
(many before). The other three die. God knows this and puts men
to the test? No purpose for that.

But no, most post-tribs and a-tribs who are anti-OSAS
must believe that God isn't big
enough to provide John 3-16 'eternal life'.

Chemnitz on Dispensational flaws:
//6....
Moreover, they offer a second chance of conversion for those who are left after
the rapture. ... //

This statement is probably incorrect.
The Messanic Jews (a Jew who believes Jesus is the Messiah) i've talked
to (three of them) agree that there will be NO GENTILE saved in the
Tribulation period. They say it by saying: "When the last Gentile that is
going to be saved is saved then the pretribulation rapture of the church
will take place." I think in the Tribulation period a gentile can be
saved, but none will take advantage of it. BTW, you note this totally
blows the idea of many pretribbers of the noble gentiles who miss the
pretribulation rapture, believe in Jesus afterwards, and go around tricking
the the Antichrist and his lackys -- the stuff that makes millions
of dollars but is built on 100% HOT AIR.


Chemnitz on Dispensational flaws:
//6. ... The focus of the Scripture's hope is not an earthly kingdom lasting
1000 years but eternity with Christ.//

There is a difference between 'hope' and 'belief' (check out 1 Cor. 13:13).
A correct statement is: The focus of the Scripture's BELIEF
is not an earthly kingdom lasting
1000 years but eternity with Christ. To this I say a hardy AMEN.
Buy i Hope i get to be in the pretriblarion rapture. (I've been around
people who die, dying is way overrated by most folks.)


Chemnitz on Dispensational flaws:
//7. The dispensationalist view of a radical break between Israel and the church
contradicts the Scriptural teaching that the cross of Christ has eliminated forever
the distinction between Jew and Gentile (Gal. 3:28; Eph. 2:11-22; Rom. 2:25-29).//

On the contrary, the Jew and Gentile are one together in the current age.
God knows the end from the beginning and speaks of that which will be as
already being. God is never bound by His creature: time.

Chemnitz on Dispensational flaws:
//8. The dispensational hermeneutic of consistent literalism is contrary to the
Scripturally --derived principles of interpretation (cf. section one above).//

Maybe True, but not moot.

Chemnitz on Dispensational flaws:
//9. Dispensationalism's multiple resurrections and judgments are contrary to the
clear Scriptural teaching on eschatology (cf. section two above).//

Strange that the eschatology I get out of the Bible is clear about the
multiple general resurrections and multiple general judgements.
BTW, i'm always malined by
anti-dispensatinalists that i got my stuff from Darby or from someone
who got their material from Darby. Sorry folks,
i got my eschatology from the Bible. Does anybody beside me find it
strange that anti-dispensationalits argue with Darby, Schofield, etc
and WON'T TALK TO ME? Who are they kidding?

Chemnitz on Dispensational flaws:
//10. The assurance and hope of salvation tend to be grounded on an
interpretation of the signs of the times rather than on the sure Word of promise
imparted in the means of grace.//

I have no idea what this means, if anything.
Maybe it means that everybody has to figure out for themselves
which dispensation they are in. I'll give you a clue:
we are in the Gentile Age dispenstion until the pretribulation
rapture happens. Then we are in the Tribulation period.